Nick Gordon heading to the IL

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

I gave you a thumbs down for this post only because there is so much sarcasm in every line I have to somewhat mind read what you are actually trying to say. And when I have to respond from an assumption, I’m usually wrong. But let me try to summarize ,,, you aren’t at all happy Kyle Garlick is getting called up because he doesn’t field a position you’d like, and his bat isn’t what we need? And you really dislike his specialized usage? Did I get that right? So who then gets the call up? Not that I’m happy with the call up, but it wasn’t unexpected, so, my expectations were managed. The one player you mentioned earlier is on the IL What’s the update on Gallo and Polo that informs this choice? I’d say it’s way too soon to talk trade for someone because it is. Not that that couldn’t happen, it could, it’s just not very likely. So who on the AAA roster who is also on the 40-man gets the call?

Good detection of the sarcasm. The post was started in defense of JD-Twins and I just couldn't pull out of sarcasm mode so I just kept going.  

What are we doing? What are we even talking about. 

Gallo is an excellent RF or LF and 1B apparently because nobody seems to argue that but if he played a game in CF... We are the worst defense all of a sudden. 

I understand that there is more ground to cover in CF and ultimately it would be nice to have Randy Moss out there running everything down but I also understand HOW OFTEN that extra ground needs to be covered and I also understand that winning teams have deployed slightly lesser outfielders in CF from time to time and done OK including the World Series. An outfielder with range in LF or RF will have some range in CF. Less than ideal is not the end of the world. Polanco can't play SS is the narrative sung around here... I agree he seems to be a better 2B but we won games with Polanco at SS but that is never factored into these discussions. Less than ideal is OK. Sometimes less than ideal will improve the product as a whole.  

What this team really really needs is someone who will hit the ball. We have a team full of .210 hitters and we are calling up a guy hitting .210 in St. Paul because he is right handed?  

I know the Twins have had an offensive hot streak the past 5 games but lets not forget it wasn't long ago that the offense was dead last or close to dead last in many cats. A healthy offense with a dedicated platoon system BTW was at the bottom of the offensive stats. We got healthy and we tanked when we did but we kept to the script and apparently are still on the script.   

I don't care about Garlick. If he is on the roster... he needs to help. He might help if he is allowed to play because he's got legit power however... I'm not interested in a guy who plays 25% of the time against left handers when the guys playing 75% of the time are not getting the job done. 

For clarity... last year... I used a lot of Twinsdaily real estate asking why Garlick couldn't play against right handers. I'm not doing a 180 on my position on Garlick. I'm saying if he is on the roster we need him to help. He was on the roster last year... I don't want to waste a roster spot on a platoon specialist when the strong side guy isn't performing. 

I understand platoon splits. I have looked at the all time stats, I've seen the season stats. When the numbers get large, the opposite handed hitter does perform better in a larger sample. But I also understand how that translates into smaler samples of a single game or even a week of play. I also understand that... a crappy strong side platoon player kinda destroys the whole concept. Unless the argument is that the guy hitting .210 would have been hitting .180 if allowed to hit both hands.  

I'm not interested in the slightest on a play 25% guy because I'm not looking for a place holder until Max Kepler gets back. I'm looking for a guy who might challenge MAX KEPLER or any of the guys who are hitting .210.       

Sometimes injuries can make you better. Injuries are when the youngsters who might be something get a chance to show that they are something. Gordon had a couple of decent games at the plate this year and he was one of our better hitters last year but his stats the past 15 games are not good and his season stats this year are not good. Gordon getting hurt is an opportunity to bring up someone who might be better. It won't be hard to be... at least... better.

Who would I call up?

Julien. He is the best hitter available in St. Paul and he is hitting right now. OPS over 1,000 in his past 15 games. Good stats over the season.  

I'm not looking for a guy that I'm going to automatically send down when Kepler is healthy. I'm looking for a guy who can out hit the sub par hitting we have been getting this year. When Kepler comes back... maybe we can take a nice hard look at someone else. 

Where does he play? Don't care. We don't know the status of Polanco or Gallo at the moment... I assume the Twins do but if they are both healthy enough to play. 1B or DH for Julien, Kirilloff can play some OF. BUXTON can play some OF but apparently this isn't possible because Buxton is the DH and nobody can be trusted to play CF. We have become so rigid defensively that there are no options to fix the offense. 

If Gallo or Polanco need to recover for a couple of days. Well... we got spots all over the place to fill.   

But we are calling up a guy that they will only play 25% of the time and is hitting .210 currently in the minors because a couple of left handers are on the docket. 

OK... I wish Garlick the best... but it doesn't matter if he does his best. He could 8 for 10 tonight and tomorrow night. He will be on the bench on Sunday and he will be sent back down when Kepler returns.

He won't be allowed to help us.     

 

 

[LA Vikes Fan]

Garlick's not my favorite call up either, but there isn't really anyone else who makes a lot of sense. Remember, this is for 4 days until Kepler assumedly comes off the IL and whoever is coming up goes back to AAA. We are facing 2 LH starters in the next 3 days and Ohtani on Sunday. Garlick seemed to be able to hit LH pitching the last 2 years so he makes sense for tonight and tomorrow. He'll be subbed out the moment a RH reliever comes in, and sent back Monday or Tuesday. Wallner needs to play every day and he won't if he comes up, and Miranda isn't hitting in AAA nor is he an OF. 

I'm not a fan of Garlick but as a RH bat for literally one series, which is all we're looking for, he does make at least some sense. Now if Polanco or Gallo have to go on the IL, then there's room for a Wallner or Julien. 

[chpettit19]

11 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

They have a few innings. I mean a full effort over an off season with the intention of learning the position. If you are convinced they can't do it, trade them now for more shortstop types. Fill the infield with two way players whenever possible. Outfield will sort itself out. I'm not really interested in the two high school lefty outfielders in the draft this year for the same reason. Less value now and future.

Why do the high school lefties carry less value now and the future? If either of them turns out to be Corbin Carroll I'd think it'd be pretty valuable, no?

12 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

On Julien I can’t see taking a very good glove out of the infield in Lewis to make room for an all thumbs 2nd baseman. My calculus has changed on this with Miranda showing less and less functionality at 3rd. I believe most of the speculation about Lewis in the outfield is based on Miranda assumptions.

I don’t want to be in the situation the Marlins are with a never before CF and a poor fielding 2nd baseman.  It degrades two spots. Even if Lewis would be good out there he’s more valuable at 2nd or 3rd.  We can find center field defense. 

A CFer who can field and hit is lightyears more valuable than a 2B or 3B who can. And Lewis has been very good out there. Go watch his AFL tape, and even the play he got hurt on. If Lewis is Buxton 2.0 this team would have a way bigger advantage than if he's Polanco 2.0.

[stringer bell]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Good detection of the sarcasm. The post was started in defense of JD-Twins and I just couldn't pull out of sarcasm mode so I just kept going.  

What are we doing? What are we even talking about. 

Gallo is an excellent RF or LF and 1B apparently because nobody seems to argue that but if he played a game in CF... We are the worst defense all of a sudden. 

I understand that there is more ground to cover in CF and ultimately it would be nice to have Randy Moss out there running everything down but I also understand HOW OFTEN that extra ground needs to be covered and I also understand that winning teams have deployed slightly lesser outfielders in CF from time to time and done OK including the World Series. An outfielder with range in LF or RF will have some range in CF. Less than ideal is not the end of the world. Polanco can't play SS is the narrative sung around here... I agree he seems to be a better 2B but we won games with Polanco at SS but that is never factored into these discussions. Less than ideal is OK. Sometimes less than ideal will improve the product as a whole.  

What this team really really needs is someone who will hit the ball. We have a team full of .210 hitters and we are calling up a guy hitting .210 in St. Paul because he is right handed?  

I know the Twins have had an offensive hot streak the past 5 games but lets not forget it wasn't long ago that the offense was dead last or close to dead last in many cats. A healthy offense with a dedicated platoon system BTW was at the bottom of the offensive stats. We got healthy and we tanked when we did but we kept to the script and apparently are still on the script.   

I don't care about Garlick. If he is on the roster... he needs to help. He might help if he is allowed to play because he's got legit power however... I'm not interested in a guy who plays 25% of the time against left handers when the guys playing 75% of the time are not getting the job done. 

For clarity... last year... I used a lot of Twinsdaily real estate asking why Garlick couldn't play against right handers. I'm not doing a 180 on my position on Garlick. I'm saying if he is on the roster we need him to help. He was on the roster last year... I don't want to waste a roster spot on a platoon specialist when the strong side guy isn't performing. 

I understand platoon splits. I have looked at the all time stats, I've seen the season stats. When the numbers get large, the opposite handed hitter does perform better in a larger sample. But I also understand how that translates into smaler samples of a single game or even a week of play. I also understand that... a crappy strong side platoon player kinda destroys the whole concept. Unless the argument is that the guy hitting .210 would have been hitting .180 if allowed to hit both hands.  

I'm not interested in the slightest on a play 25% guy because I'm not looking for a place holder until Max Kepler gets back. I'm looking for a guy who might challenge MAX KEPLER or any of the guys who are hitting .210.       

Sometimes injuries can make you better. Injuries are when the youngsters who might be something get a chance to show that they are something. Gordon had a couple of decent games at the plate this year and he was one of our better hitters last year but his stats the past 15 games are not good and his season stats this year are not good. Gordon getting hurt is an opportunity to bring up someone who might be better. It won't be hard to be... at least... better.

Who would I call up?

Julien. He is the best hitter available in St. Paul and he is hitting right now. OPS over 1,000 in his past 15 games. Good stats over the season.  

I'm not looking for a guy that I'm going to automatically send down when Kepler is healthy. I'm looking for a guy who can out hit the sub par hitting we have been getting this year. When Kepler comes back... maybe we can take a nice hard look at someone else. 

Where does he play? Don't care. We don't know the status of Polanco or Gallo at the moment... I assume the Twins do but if they are both healthy enough to play. 1B or DH for Julien, Kirilloff can play some OF. BUXTON can play some OF but apparently this isn't possible because Buxton is the DH and nobody can be trusted to play CF. We have become so rigid defensively that there are no options to fix the offense. 

If Gallo or Polanco need to recover for a couple of days. Well... we got spots all over the place to fill.   

But we are calling up a guy that they will only play 25% of the time and is hitting .210 currently in the minors because a couple of left handers are on the docket. 

OK... I wish Garlick the best... but it doesn't matter if he does his best. He could 8 for 10 tonight and tomorrow night. He will be on the bench on Sunday and he will be sent back down when Kepler returns.

He won't be allowed to help us.     

 

 

It’s four days, and the Twins get two left handed starts against them, so it’s safe to assume that Garlick gets 50% or more of available playing time. 
 

I absolutely get your point about .210 hitters, however Exhibits 1, 2, 3 (Kepler, Gallo, Larnach) are among the Twins with above-average OPS (103, 103 and 144). If there’s somebody who can play adequate defense and hit better, they should be here and playing. 
 

I said this on another thread, it is not a good look to mess with prospects. To call up Wallner or Julien only to have them start maybe one game (and face Ohtani) and then immediately be sent out isn’t great for them. 
 

If Rocco is going to sit Polanco for a day or two, I’d definitely like him to go on the IL and give Julien a week’s worth of starts. 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

Wallner needs to play every day and he won't if he comes up,

Does he need to play every single day? Would 4 out of 5 games be OK. 3 out of 5? 

Based on performance 100 plus AB's in... Who on the current MLB roster is playing like they can't ever be taken out of the lineup?   

What if Wallner is hitting like Christopher Morel? or Casey Schmitt or Brent Rooker or JJ Bleday or Sam Hilliard or Owen Miller or Dominic Fletcher or Geraldo Perdomo or James Outman or even James Heyward for that matter. What if he is hitting like... Lamonte Wade or Casey Sobel or Bryan De La Cruz or Connor Joe or Jack Suwinski or Rodolfo Castro or Ezequil Duran or Leody Tavares or Harold Ramirez or Isaac Peredes or Jarren Duran or Jake Fraley or TJ Freidl or Brenton Doyle or Nick Pratto or Zach McKinstry or Jake Burger?  Even if this type of hitting only lasts a month and they fall on their faces in July... wouldn't performance like that... Help in May and June? 

You are a great poster so don't read anymore into these questions than myself doing everything I can to point out that we have players on the current roster playing every day that are not earning it that playing time. I'm pointing out that every year there are multiple examples of players performing like the players that I list above that may not have been in the original plan.    

Injuries should be the time that you call up the players who are earning the right to play. We can't let people under performing players stop the discovery process.   

[D.C Twins]

2 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Good detection of the sarcasm. The post was started in defense of JD-Twins and I just couldn't pull out of sarcasm mode so I just kept going.  

What are we doing? What are we even talking about. 

Gallo is an excellent RF or LF and 1B apparently because nobody seems to argue that but if he played a game in CF... We are the worst defense all of a sudden. 

I understand that there is more ground to cover in CF and ultimately it would be nice to have Randy Moss out there running everything down but I also understand HOW OFTEN that extra ground needs to be covered and I also understand that winning teams have deployed slightly lesser outfielders in CF from time to time and done OK including the World Series. An outfielder with range in LF or RF will have some range in CF. Less than ideal is not the end of the world. Polanco can't play SS is the narrative sung around here... I agree he seems to be a better 2B but we won games with Polanco at SS but that is never factored into these discussions. Less than ideal is OK. Sometimes less than ideal will improve the product as a whole.  

What this team really really needs is someone who will hit the ball. We have a team full of .210 hitters and we are calling up a guy hitting .210 in St. Paul because he is right handed?  

I know the Twins have had an offensive hot streak the past 5 games but lets not forget it wasn't long ago that the offense was dead last or close to dead last in many cats. A healthy offense with a dedicated platoon system BTW was at the bottom of the offensive stats. We got healthy and we tanked when we did but we kept to the script and apparently are still on the script.   

I don't care about Garlick. If he is on the roster... he needs to help. He might help if he is allowed to play because he's got legit power however... I'm not interested in a guy who plays 25% of the time against left handers when the guys playing 75% of the time are not getting the job done. 

For clarity... last year... I used a lot of Twinsdaily real estate asking why Garlick couldn't play against right handers. I'm not doing a 180 on my position on Garlick. I'm saying if he is on the roster we need him to help. He was on the roster last year... I don't want to waste a roster spot on a platoon specialist when the strong side guy isn't performing. 

I understand platoon splits. I have looked at the all time stats, I've seen the season stats. When the numbers get large, the opposite handed hitter does perform better in a larger sample. But I also understand how that translates into smaler samples of a single game or even a week of play. I also understand that... a crappy strong side platoon player kinda destroys the whole concept. Unless the argument is that the guy hitting .210 would have been hitting .180 if allowed to hit both hands.  

I'm not interested in the slightest on a play 25% guy because I'm not looking for a place holder until Max Kepler gets back. I'm looking for a guy who might challenge MAX KEPLER or any of the guys who are hitting .210.       

Sometimes injuries can make you better. Injuries are when the youngsters who might be something get a chance to show that they are something. Gordon had a couple of decent games at the plate this year and he was one of our better hitters last year but his stats the past 15 games are not good and his season stats this year are not good. Gordon getting hurt is an opportunity to bring up someone who might be better. It won't be hard to be... at least... better.

Who would I call up?

Julien. He is the best hitter available in St. Paul and he is hitting right now. OPS over 1,000 in his past 15 games. Good stats over the season.  

I'm not looking for a guy that I'm going to automatically send down when Kepler is healthy. I'm looking for a guy who can out hit the sub par hitting we have been getting this year. When Kepler comes back... maybe we can take a nice hard look at someone else. 

Where does he play? Don't care. We don't know the status of Polanco or Gallo at the moment... I assume the Twins do but if they are both healthy enough to play. 1B or DH for Julien, Kirilloff can play some OF. BUXTON can play some OF but apparently this isn't possible because Buxton is the DH and nobody can be trusted to play CF. We have become so rigid defensively that there are no options to fix the offense. 

If Gallo or Polanco need to recover for a couple of days. Well... we got spots all over the place to fill.   

But we are calling up a guy that they will only play 25% of the time and is hitting .210 currently in the minors because a couple of left handers are on the docket. 

OK... I wish Garlick the best... but it doesn't matter if he does his best. He could 8 for 10 tonight and tomorrow night. He will be on the bench on Sunday and he will be sent back down when Kepler returns.

He won't be allowed to help us.     

 

 

Or we could just simplify everything and have Buck play CF, but.....

[DJL44]

50 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

A CFer who can field and hit is lightyears more valuable than a 2B or 3B who can. 

This is not correct. CF is in the middle of the defensive spectrum right next to 3B and 2B. A player who can field and hit at any of those positions is worth about the same defensively. C, SS, 2B, CF, 3B, RF, LF, 1B in that order.

2B and 3B get to turn double plays and CF generally does not.

[Riverbrian]

29 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

It’s four days, and the Twins get two left handed starts against them, so it’s safe to assume that Garlick gets 50% or more of available playing time. 
 

I absolutely get your point about .210 hitters, however Exhibits 1, 2, 3 (Kepler, Gallo, Larnach) are among the Twins with above-average OPS (103, 103 and 144). If there’s somebody who can play adequate defense and hit better, they should be here and playing. 
 

I said this on another thread, it is not a good look to mess with prospects. To call up Wallner or Julien only to have them start maybe one game (and face Ohtani) and then immediately be sent out isn’t great for them. 
 

If Rocco is going to sit Polanco for a day or two, I’d definitely like him to go on the IL and give Julien a week’s worth of starts. 

We are not that far off from each other String. I understand what you are saying and I think you understand what I'm saying. 

The main disagreement is this.

You have already classified the call up as disposable or temporary. I'm saying disposable or temporary doesn't help us one bit and is a wasted opportunity for improvement. 

Why does it have to be a 4 day fill in with an egg timer ticking? 103 OPS+ isn't a Eureka moment.

Injuries can make a team better especially when that injury is to a guy with a 37 OPS plus.

Maybe we can find another 103 OPS guy and start addressing the 92,89 and ,74's while we are at it. 

 

  

 

   

[LA Vikes Fan]

4 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Does he need to play every single day? Would 4 out of 5 games be OK. 3 out of 5? 

Based on performance 100 plus AB's in... Who on the current MLB roster is playing like they can't ever be taken out of the lineup?   

What if Wallner is hitting like Christopher Morel? or Casey Schmitt or Brent Rooker or JJ Bleday or Sam Hilliard or Owen Miller or Dominic Fletcher or Geraldo Perdomo or James Outman or even James Heyward for that matter. What if he is hitting like... Lamonte Wade or Casey Sobel or Bryan De La Cruz or Connor Joe or Jack Suwinski or Rodolfo Castro or Ezequil Duran or Leody Tavares or Harold Ramirez or Isaac Peredes or Jarren Duran or Jake Fraley or TJ Freidl or Brenton Doyle or Nick Pratto or Zach McKinstry or Jake Burger?  Even if this type of hitting only lasts a month and they fall on their faces in July... wouldn't performance like that... Help in May and June? 

You are a great poster so don't read anymore into these questions than myself doing everything I can to point out that we have players on the current roster playing every day that are not earning it that playing time. I'm pointing out that every year there are multiple examples of players performing like the players that I list above that may not have been in the original plan.    

Injuries should be the time that you call up the players who are earning the right to play. We can't let people under performing players stop the discovery process.   

All good points but who comes out? Wallner can only play a corner OF spot (barely) or DH. I would love to put Buxton in CF and open up the DH spot but that doesn't appear to be the plan any time soon. So, Wallner would be coming up and competing for time with Gallo and Larnach. You and I might disagree here, but I think Gallo has actually played pretty well for us. To me, he's any every day player. Larnach has had his moments and I think he may develop into what he can be at the MLB level - a .250-.265/.340-.350/.450+ kind of hitter. Plus, he's a better defensive OF than Wallner. And that doesn't even count Kepler who I think is really at 4th OF/trade candidate on whom the org has a bit of a man crush, Our underperforming players aren't so much Gallo and Larnach, it's whoever is playing CF while Buxton DHs, Vasquez and Correa, Wallner doesn't help move out any of those guys. 

All of this changes if  Buxton plays CF most every day, Gallo has to go on the IL, or Kepler is traded. Then there's a spot to give Wallner ABs at least 3 or 4 times a week in the OF or at DH. The other possibility is to demote Larnach again, give Wallner his spot, and use him the same way we now use Larnach. I guess my bottom line is that we have one spot for a LH hitting corner OF/DH even after Kepler comes back now that Gordon is hurt. I would use that spot on Larnach for at least the next month before considering Wallner unless we have another injury, Kepler is traded for relief pitching (my personal favorite),  or Buxton goes back to CF close to full time.    

 

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

This is not correct. CF is in the middle of the defensive spectrum right next to 3B and 2B. A player who can field and hit at any of those positions is worth about the same defensively. C, SS, 2B, CF, 3B, RF, LF, 1B in that order.

2B and 3B get to turn double plays and CF generally does not.

Where does that ranking come from, and what is it based on?

[Riverbrian]

16 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

All good points but who comes out? Wallner can only play a corner OF spot (barely) or DH. I would love to put Buxton in CF and open up the DH spot but that doesn't appear to be the plan any time soon. So, Wallner would be coming up and competing for time with Gallo and Larnach. You and I might disagree here, but I think Gallo has actually played pretty well for us. To me, he's any every day player. Larnach has had his moments and I think he may develop into what he can be at the MLB level - a .250-.265/.340-.350/.450+ kind of hitter. Plus, he's a better defensive OF than Wallner. And that doesn't even count Kepler who I think is really at 4th OF/trade candidate on whom the org has a bit of a man crush, Our underperforming players aren't so much Gallo and Larnach, it's whoever is playing CF while Buxton DHs, Vasquez and Correa, Wallner doesn't help move out any of those guys. 

All of this changes if  Buxton plays CF most every day, Gallo has to go on the IL, or Kepler is traded. Then there's a spot to give Wallner ABs at least 3 or 4 times a week in the OF or at DH. The other possibility is to demote Larnach again, give Wallner his spot, and use him the same way we now use Larnach. I guess my bottom line is that we have one spot for a LH hitting corner OF/DH even after Kepler comes back now that Gordon is hurt. I would use that spot on Larnach for at least the next month before considering Wallner unless we have another injury, Kepler is traded for relief pitching (my personal favorite),  or Buxton goes back to CF close to full time.    

 

Well... If Buxton can't play CF at all. He is indeed a DH bottle neck. Especially, if under no circumstances would we ever entertain the thought that nobody else can play CF besides Taylor... even for a game or two... just to get players AB's who might actually hit the ball and help this team rise up a level.    

If Buxton can play some CF... Doors open up. If Gallo is allowed to man some CF or Larnach for a game or two some doors open up. Over time they will tell us who shouldn't be a 5th wheel.   

My arguments are never going to make sense with rigid defensive expectations but I'm standing here... saying with all my might. We don't have a roster that says... stop looking...  at any position for that matter.

I'm Ok with creativity. It does not scare me. Standing pat scares the crap out of me.     

 

[Mike Sixel]

15 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Where does that ranking come from, and what is it based on?

Check this out:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/explaining-win-values-part-three/

[dxpavelka]

On 5/18/2023 at 9:43 AM, chpettit19 said:

Their voiced plan coming out of ST was to reassess Buxton in CF in mid-May. It's felt like they've been trying to back off that plan slowly, but surely, the last month. I hope they're at least discussing it. I'm not a medical professional, and know nothing about his specific health concerns, but I hope they don't talk themselves into anything close to a full season DH role for him simply because he hasn't been hurt yet.

Can he at least do a few days a week until Lewis is up? Where are they at with allowing Lewis to play CF? That seems like the bigger opening for him come May 30th than 3B at this point. 2 of their 4 best players could be great fits for CF, but they may not be willing to play either of them there. That'd be such a gigantic competitive advantage to take away.

I've supported the "Buxton as DH to start the year" plan because at this point you can't just throw him in CF everyday and expect him to be healthy all season. They had to do something to take away some of the wear and tear on his body since it clearly wears him down, and leads to an acute situation ending his season. But if you can't use him in CF at all this team looks drastically different.

He's not Buxton in CF but Taylor's not exactly Willie Norwood either. 

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, dxpavelka said:

He's not Buxton in CF but Taylor's not exactly Willie Norwood either. 

Taylor's a great defender in CF, but he's not a good hitter. If I can get a good fielder, and improved bat, in CF I'll take that over the glove only player in Taylor. They have bats that can fill other spots that are better than Taylor. Just trying to get the best bats in the lineup without tanking the defense.

[chpettit19]

17 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Check this out:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/explaining-win-values-part-three/

I'd hope fangraphs has changed their calculations in the last 15 years.

[dxpavelka]

22 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Taylor's a great defender in CF, but he's not a good hitter. If I can get a good fielder, and improved bat, in CF I'll take that over the glove only player in Taylor. They have bats that can fill other spots that are better than Taylor. Just trying to get the best bats in the lineup without tanking the defense.

The topic of the thread was a guy with a .503 OPS going on the IL.  I'm pushing 60 years old but I might be a better bat.

 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, dxpavelka said:

The topic of the thread was a guy with a .503 OPS going on the IL.  I'm pushing 60 years old but I might be a better bat.

 

And I'd replace him with Lewis as well. My stance is that Royce Lewis would be in CF any day Byron Buxton isn't in CF for the foreseeable future. Now there's a number of variables that can change that for this season, but as a general plan for the CF position those would be the 2 guys I want there.

[LA Vikes Fan]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Well... If Buxton can't play CF at all. He is indeed a DH bottle neck. Especially, if under no circumstances would we ever entertain the thought that nobody else can play CF besides Taylor... even for a game or two... just to get players AB's who might actually hit the ball and help this team rise up a level.    

If Buxton can play some CF... Doors open up. If Gallo is allowed to man some CF or Larnach for a game or two some doors open up. Over time they will tell us who shouldn't be a 5th wheel.   

My arguments are never going to make sense with rigid defensive expectations but I'm standing here... saying with all my might. We don't have a roster that says... stop looking...  at any position for that matter.

I'm Ok with creativity. It does not scare me. Standing pat scares the crap out of me.     

 

I agree with that. THis offense needs...something. Kirilloff is helping quite a bit as did Polanco before him. We still need at least one more bat, really 2, and some speed. Maybe Lewis is that bat/speed combo? Maybe Laranch (or Wallner, Miranda, or Julien) is that other bat? I see this as the offense we're going to have. Don't see us sacrificing any more of our less robust depth for a bat. 

Now, trading MiLB depth for a relief pitcher? Maybe... 

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Where does that ranking come from, and what is it based on?

The commonly accepted defensive spectrum aligns with positional adjustment values in WAR. If you look at the difference in average offense by position that's the way it lines up. It hasn't always been static. In the 1920s there was a lot more bunting and fewer double plays so 3B was more important than 2B. With the defensive shift 2B was trending lower in importance but it's gained that back this season.

Quote

Current values (per 1350 (150*9) innings played) are:

1. C: +9 runs
2. SS: +7 runs
3. 2B: +3 runs
4. CF: +2.5 runs
5. 3B: +2 runs
6. RF: -7 runs
7. LF: -7 runs
8. 1B: -9.5 runs
9. DH: -15 runs

Position Player WAR Calculations and Details | Baseball-Reference.com

2B, CF and 3B are close on that list.

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I'd hope fangraphs has changed their calculations in the last 15 years.

3B has been moving up the spectrum for 15 years. Fielding chances have declined faster for other positions due to the rise in strikeouts.

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

And I'd replace him with Lewis as well. My stance is that Royce Lewis would be in CF any day Byron Buxton isn't in CF for the foreseeable future. Now there's a number of variables that can change that for this season, but as a general plan for the CF position those would be the 2 guys I want there.

You know I am in this boat with you and Mike.  However, they have not been giving him anytime in CF in the minors so I am thinking they are not going there, especially with Miranda out of the picture for now.  Of course, it's possible they wanted to ease him in.  A Long-term view sure seems like Buxton/Lewis manning CF is a great way to deal with Buxton's inability to man the position 140 games/year.     

[chpettit19]

31 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

3B has been moving up the spectrum for 15 years. Fielding chances have declined faster for other positions due to the rise in strikeouts.

True, but as you mentioned in the other comment, the shift also effected that. The shift really negated things at 2B. IF defensive stuff got even harder to judge/weight as some teams would move their 3B to the right side and leave the SS on the left side alone. That went away more and more as teams fine tuned their shift strategies.

I don't think it's crazy to put 2B up there with CF with the shift limitations back in place now, but you're definitely going to find some teams (I can tell you there's at least 3- or at least some employees in 3 FOs) that still feel their data on batted balls can allow them to get away with lesser defenders in non-SS IF positions over what they're willing to do in CF as far as limiting fielding/range there goes.

It's a fun debate. It'll be interesting to see how the Twins weight defense over the next couple years as they have some clear bat over glove players coming and will have to decide where they want their premium gloves. The last 2 last years CF was the 2nd worst hitting position in baseball (predictably behind C). This year it's the 2nd best behind only 1B. Will be interesting to see where things end up at the end of the season.

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

You know I am in this boat with you and Mike.  However, they have not been giving him anytime in CF in the minors so I am thinking they are not going there, especially with Miranda out of the picture for now.  Of course, it's possible they wanted to ease him in.  A Long-term view sure seems like Buxton/Lewis manning CF is a great way to deal with Buxton's inability to man the position 140 games/year.     

What they said at the beginning of this rehab assignment was they were going to start him at just SS and 3B as he got started since that's where he was most comfortable, but they'd reassess as time went on. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they'll look at it during his rehab, but they certainly didn't shut the door on it. Like last year, I'd guess the rest of the roster's performance, and injuries, will probably dictate some of it. Will be interesting to see how it all progresses.

[Riverbrian]

31 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

I agree with that. THis offense needs...something. Kirilloff is helping quite a bit as did Polanco before him. We still need at least one more bat, really 2, and some speed. Maybe Lewis is that bat/speed combo? Maybe Laranch (or Wallner, Miranda, or Julien) is that other bat? I see this as the offense we're going to have. Don;t see us sacrificing any more of our less robust depth for a bat. 

NOw, trading MiLB depth for a relief pitcher? Maybe... 

The Cubs just released Eric Hosmer. 

.234 BA - .610 OPS

Those numbers look familiar to me. 

We can't be locking into this. 

You are right... this might be the offense we are going to have but it shouldn't be and the reason... is??? why??? Defense??? 

As you can tell... I'm becoming frustrated with the lack of movement or experimentation or the flat out holding still waiting for... I don't know what. The batting order barely changes... that's auto-pilot. 

Myself... I'm starting to pull from the bottom until the bottom is higher and maybe while pulling from the bottom, we might get lucky and find a top of the pile addition and the top is higher. As sure as I'm standing here... that is how you fix it.  

Gordon is hurt for awhile, that is taking straight from the bottom. 

Who's next? Castro? He's at the bottom of production. Nope... can't send Castro down because he is needed to back up multiple positions with Gordon is out and play 25% of the time so he can OPS in the .500's. So... he can't replaced and firmly entrenched at the bottom. 

Garlick is just adding more bottom to the bottom. 

What are we doing? 

I don't know anymore? 

But... Hey... on the positive side. I'm sure liking the pitching.     

 

[DJL44]

20 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Myself... I'm starting to pull from the bottom until the bottom is higher and maybe while pulling from the bottom, we might get lucky and find a top of the pile addition and the top is higher. As sure as I'm standing here... that is how you fix it.  

Miranda to AAA is exactly this kind of move and we're all hoping Royce Lewis is a top of the pile addition.

[SwainZag]

15 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

The Cubs just released Eric Hosmer. 

.234 BA - .610 OPS

Those numbers look familiar to me. 

We can't be locking into this. 

You are right... this might be the offense we are going to have but it shouldn't be and the reason... is??? why??? Defense??? 

As you can tell... I'm becoming frustrated with the lack of movement or experimentation or the flat out holding still waiting for... I don't know what. The batting order barely changes... that's auto-pilot. 

Myself... I'm starting to pull from the bottom until the bottom is higher and maybe while pulling from the bottom, we might get lucky and find a top of the pile addition and the top is higher. As sure as I'm standing here... that is how you fix it.  

Gordon is hurt for awhile, that is taking straight from the bottom. 

Who's next? Castro? He's at the bottom of production. Nope... can't send Castro down because he is needed to back up multiple positions with Gordon is out and play 25% of the time so he can OPS in the .500's. So... he can't replaced and firmly entrenched at the bottom. 

Garlick is just adding more bottom to the bottom. 

What are we doing? 

I don't know anymore? 

But... Hey... on the positive side. I'm sure liking the pitching.     

 

Garlick is being added because he's on the 40 man roster and historically has hit left handed pitching very well.   They face 2 lefties this week and Max is due off the IL in 5 days.   It very much makes sense why he is getting called up.

You don't start releasing and depleting your depth in May, especially a team with contending aspirations.  Young players will get a shot, but why the need to rush it and push others out?

Hosmer is 33 and signed a small 1 year deal and had been awful on a team that probably won't contend, I don't see the parallels with him on anything with the Twins.

 

 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

Miranda to AAA is exactly this kind of move and we're all hoping Royce Lewis is a top of the pile addition.

Agreed - I'd like to see if we Julien can join Lewis at the top of the pile. I know for sure it won't be Garlick. 

Kinda 

Miranda needed to be sent down but he wasn't the bottom at the time. Larnach and Miranda being sent down was probably more a function of having options so they could be and I get that... and don't have a problem with that.  

[chpettit19]

33 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

The Cubs just released Eric Hosmer. 

.234 BA - .610 OPS

Those numbers look familiar to me. 

We can't be locking into this. 

You are right... this might be the offense we are going to have but it shouldn't be and the reason... is??? why??? Defense??? 

As you can tell... I'm becoming frustrated with the lack of movement or experimentation or the flat out holding still waiting for... I don't know what. The batting order barely changes... that's auto-pilot. 

Myself... I'm starting to pull from the bottom until the bottom is higher and maybe while pulling from the bottom, we might get lucky and find a top of the pile addition and the top is higher. As sure as I'm standing here... that is how you fix it.  

Gordon is hurt for awhile, that is taking straight from the bottom. 

Who's next? Castro? He's at the bottom of production. Nope... can't send Castro down because he is needed to back up multiple positions with Gordon is out and play 25% of the time so he can OPS in the .500's. So... he can't replaced and firmly entrenched at the bottom. 

Garlick is just adding more bottom to the bottom. 

What are we doing? 

I don't know anymore? 

But... Hey... on the positive side. I'm sure liking the pitching.     

 

My thoughts on the current 13 man hitter roster, player by player: (ordered by highest to lowest wRC+)

Kirilloff: 186 wRC+ should be currently locked into a lineup spot everyday. Fine playing him at 1B, LF, RF

Gallo: 144 wRC+ should be currently locked into a lineup spot everyday. Fine playing him at 1B, LF, RF

Buxton: 129 wRC+ should be currently locked into a lineup spot everyday. The real challenge is they won't put him in CF (no idea if that's the right decision or not, but it's most definitely not ideal)

Jeffers: 129 wRC+ should be in an even split with Vazquez. Fine playing him at C.

Farmer: 128 wRC+ should be playing everyday to find out if he can actually hit righties this year. Fine playing him anywhere in the IF, never seen him in cOF so not sure on that.

Polanco: 124 wRC+ should be locked into a lineup spot everyday. Fine playing him at 2B, and wouldn't cry if he spot started at SS.

Larnach: 103 wRC+ I'd play him everyday for a week and see if he's found his swing again like he has the last couple games. Fine playing him in LF or RF.

Solano: 95 wRC+ I'd keep him in his current "only hits against lefties" for the rest of the month, and send him out for Lewis. Fine with him playing 2B and 1B, even though it's not ideal, they're his only options with Buxton at DH.

MAT: 91 wRC+ I'd like him in defensive replacement/pinch runner role, with spot starts to give a guy a day if needed. Fine with him in the OF anywhere.

Garlick: 82 wRC+ I don't think short side platoon, negative base runner, negative fielder players have any spot on any roster, unless it's the playoffs and you know you're running with your core 9 guys and have a MAT type player to immediately replace him after an AB

Correa: 80 wRC+ Has to play everyday. Simply needs to get his act together. No idea how you decide when to pull the plug on your newly re-signed cornerstone player.

Castro: 77 wRC+ I like him as a pinch runner, super-utility backup used sparingly, and not as some sort of true platoon. Fine with him playing any position but catcher.

Vazquez: 72 wRC+ I'd split him 50/50 with Jeffers because I believe he plays a real role in the pitching success.

So I have 7 "everyday" guys for right now, plus the C timeshare. I know we disagree on some defensive things, and I have much higher standards for who I'd put in up-the-middle defensive spots. To me the obvious opening is CF, and Buxton would go a long ways to fixing that. Then you call up Julien, or whoever, and see what they can do. But, to me, every other spot is filled with guys who either deserve to play based on current performance (Farmer, Gallo, Kirilloff), you need to see if they've figured it out (Larnach), are your core (Buxton, Correa, Polanco), or are the catchers. Their problem continues to be that they're full of corner defenders, and have no answer for Buxton not playing CF. Thoughts?

[DJL44]

2 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Agreed - I'd like to see if we Julien can join Lewis at the top of the pile.

The problem with Julien is the spot he's most likely to help this team is DH with Buxton moving to CF.

[Riverbrian]

22 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

Garlick is being added because he's on the 40 man roster and historically has hit left handed pitching very well.   They face 2 lefties this week and Max is due off the IL in 5 days.   It very much makes sense why he is getting called up.

You don't start releasing and depleting your depth in May, especially a team with contending aspirations.  Young players will get a shot, but why the need to rush it and push others out?

Hosmer is 33 and signed a small 1 year deal and had been awful on a team that probably won't contend, I don't see the parallels with him on anything with the Twins.

 

 

 

 

I understand all of this and I agree with a chunk of it but here are my counter arguments. 

2. I agree that releasing and depleting your depth in May is a little aggressive. Honestly, I'm at the point where, if it happens OK but in this discussion... I'm not suggesting releasing anyone at all. 

We have an injury. We have a roster spot that doesn't require the release of anyone. This is the open door to promoting someone who might be a solution going forward. We have chosen to bring up a player who is already targeted to go back down on Tuesday and not a solution going forward. However... I will add that if your depth is ..500 OPS, .600 OPS... We don't have depth and who cares if it goes away.  

1. Yes... Garlick is on the 40 man. Easy canoe trip across the river. He has legit power... I like him always have but he will not be allowed to be a solution. He will play 25% of the time if he sticks on the roster beyond Kepler coming back meanwhile 75% of the time we have problems that need to be addressed but we can't because... our current lineup can't be replaced. 

Back to point #2... This is a 26 man roster spot opening and the opportunity to see if someone can be something. 

3. The Cubs... Well... if the front office is releasing a struggling vet because they don't think they will contend in a division being led by the Pirates... (Oops Brewers but close enough). The front office isn't capable of doing their jobs. They are releasing Hosmer because he is hurting their chances of contending.