SS- Maybe a trade?

[Doctor Gast]

On 11/13/2022 at 12:09 PM, ashbury said:

 

Three-team trade, then?  Trade Rule-5 eligible prospects to a team doing a tear-down, taking an established player in return, and flipping to the team with the extra SS, with extra pieces as necessary?  (The Garver trade wasn't quite like that but turned out to be the start of a three-team deal. in effect)

Yeah, a 3 way trade might very well be our best option if a targeted team doesn't need what we have to offer then we can relay that need from a 3rd party team.

[stringer bell]

Even after a year when there was no Rule V draft, the Twins have 36 men on their 40-man roster allowing only for four to be added to protect against this year's Rule V. Many other teams have room to add 7-8. To me, this indicates that there isn't a lot of talent left to be protected, probably as a result of the deadline trades made in August. Also, guys like Woods Richardson and Wallner were added late in the season. 

Lewis, Lee, Miller and perhaps Martin could be projected as long-term answers at shortstop and if the Twins are confident that one of them will be the answer, it doesn't make sense to spend precious prospect capital for maybe as little as half a season for a shortstop. Unfortunately, (IMHO) if they believe in their prospects, it lowers the chances that they'll "go big" for a free agent shortstop. 

[weitz41]

3 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Even after a year when there was no Rule V draft, the Twins have 36 men on their 40-man roster allowing only for four to be added to protect against this year's Rule V. Many other teams have room to add 7-8. To me, this indicates that there isn't a lot of talent left to be protected, probably as a result of the deadline trades made in August. Also, guys like Woods Richardson and Wallner were added late in the season. 

Lewis, Lee, Miller and perhaps Martin could be projected as long-term answers at shortstop and if the Twins are confident that one of them will be the answer, it doesn't make sense to spend precious prospect capital for maybe as little as half a season for a shortstop. Unfortunately, (IMHO) if they believe in their prospects, it lowers the chances that they'll "go big" for a free agent shortstop. 

Something I was wondering about as well. Now lets not burn me to a crisp over this..but why not just snag a AAA SS from a team that doesn't protect them from the rule 5 draft or just straight up trade for them. They should be relatively inexpensive. If one of the three we have can take over in the second half great!  Shewmake from Atlanta or Adison Barger from the Blu Jays. Just a couple of examples. 100K plus 3 months of league min salary. I know they're not proven pro players but millions for Elvis Andrus and his career 87 OPS+ or Iglesias and his career 88 OPS+ feels like a waste of time and money.

Gary Sanchez had an 89 OPS+ for 2021. So you're getting a Sanchez type of performance from your SS position on average...

I'm not saying this is a great option..but it is an option..

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, weitz41 said:

Something I was wondering about as well. Now lets not burn me to a crisp over this..but why not just snag a AAA SS from a team that doesn't protect them from the rule 5 draft or just straight up trade for them. They should be relatively inexpensive. If one of the three we have can take over in the second half great!  Shewmake from Atlanta or Adison Barger from the Blu Jays. Just a couple of examples. 100K plus 3 months of league min salary. I know they're not proven pro players but millions for Elvis Andrus and his career 87 OPS+ or Iglesias and his career 88 OPS+ feels like a waste of time and money.

Gary Sanchez had an 89 OPS+ for 2021. So you're getting a Sanchez type of performance from your SS position on average...

I'm not saying this is a great option..but it is an option..

Just an FYI, but Shewmake was added to the Atlanta 40-man. I'd guess there's very little chance any real AAA SS will be left off 40-mans today. 

[weitz41]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Just an FYI, but Shewmake was added to the Atlanta 40-man. I'd guess there's very little chance any real AAA SS will be left off 40-mans today. 

Just spotted that. Like I said just thoughts. I read the write up on him (Shewmake) from MLB network and thought hmm..But that ship has probably sailed. I'm just far from convinced the middle tier FA are worth the 40-man spot let alone their salary.

[beckmt]

I saw an article today, that the Twins were going to make a major offer to Correra.  This could be just Boras blowing smoke to drive up offers or maybe the Twins have decided to spend here, add a couple of relievers and maybe a spare OF and call it good. The downside risk is starting pitching will need the youngsters to come through, upside is if they do, we will be competitive in a good way. 

[Doctor Gast]

On 11/14/2022 at 11:30 AM, RpR said:

Arraez fielding , by numbers at Baseball Ref. , has GREATfLY improved, only place to never play him is outfield and Third Base.

Arraez defensive #s greatly improve because he mainly played 1B, where you don't need range. I'd rather him play 3B than 2B because it'd be easier to get him to improve his hands than to sprout wings.

[twinfan]

If the Twins believe that Lewis will be the answer, then Iglesias makes sense. If they don't feel that way, I'd love for them to sign Turner who I think is the best out there. If not Turner, then Correa though I don't believe he will sign with us. I'd like to see us get a couple of bullpen stalwarts. Teams will win with a solid bullpen and I don't think we are quite there yet.

[stringer bell]

6 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Arraez defensive #s greatly improve because he mainly played 1B, where you don't need range. I'd rather him play 3B than 2B because it'd be easier to get him to improve his hands than to sprout wings.

Arraez doesn’t have great defensive tools, but he isn’t a bad defender. It is true he is not fast and he’ll never have more than adequate range, but he isn’t a cause for concern at first, second or third. Keeping him healthy is another concern though. 

[Doctor Gast]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

Arraez doesn’t have great defensive tools, but he isn’t a bad defender. It is true he is not fast and he’ll never have more than adequate range, but he isn’t a cause for concern at first, second or third. Keeping him healthy is another concern though. 

The problem at 2B isn't his defensive tools, he'll catch what's hit at him. He has adequate range for 1B or 3B but at 2B you need a lot more range. You can mask it a little with the shift but with the shift ban it'll become very evident & disasterous.

[RpR]

24 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

The problem at 2B isn't his defensive tools, he'll catch what's hit at him. He has adequate range for 1B or 3B but at 2B you need a lot more range. You can mask it a little with the shift but with the shift ban it'll become very evident & disasterous.

Yet his fielding numbers at Baseball Ref. are best at 2nd, good at 1st and horrendous at 3rd.

[stringer bell]

28 minutes ago, RpR said:

Yet his fielding numbers at Baseball Ref. are best at 2nd, good at 1st and horrendous at 3rd.

Mighty small sample size for 3B last year. BBRef stats in '21 (55 games at third) were fine.

[Doctor Gast]

15 minutes ago, RpR said:

Yet his fielding numbers at Baseball Ref. are best at 2nd, good at 1st and horrendous at 3rd.

That why defensive stats are misleading, again he'll field a ball that's hit at him w/o many errors. But this rating doesn't include range. Fielding a hard smash hit at you on the RF grass is a lot easier than a hard smash playing near 1B & even more so at 3B (that's why they call it the hot corner) and if you make a slight mistake at 3B you end up paying for it. Good hands can be acquired but sprouting wings is tough.

Defensive stats can be deceiving but your eyes don't lie. Ditch the stats & start observing

[stringer bell]

55 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

The problem at 2B isn't his defensive tools, he'll catch what's hit at him. He has adequate range for 1B or 3B but at 2B you need a lot more range. You can mask it a little with the shift but with the shift ban it'll become very evident & disasterous.

The fielding stats are supposed to account for range and Arraez still is fine. I am conflicted about fielding metrics and don't fully trust them as they are presented now. One thing for certain, few errors doesn't make an outstanding fielder on it's own. I would say that a high number of errors is an indicator of defensive issues.

[stringer bell]

2 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

That why defensive stats are misleading, again he'll field a ball that's hit at him w/o many errors. But this rating doesn't include range. Fielding a hard smash hit at you on the RF grass is a lot easier than a hard smash playing near 1B & even more so at 3B (that's why they call it the hot corner) and if you make a slight mistake at 3B you end up paying for it. Good hands can be acquired but sprouting wings is tough.

Defensive stats can be deceiving but your eyes don't lie. Ditch the stats & start observing

Disagree. The "defensive runs saved" is supposed to credit defenders for making plays outside of zone and penalize them for not reaching balls in the zone. 

[RpR]

2 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Mighty small sample size for 3B last year. BBRef stats in '21 (55 games at third) were fine.

All six errors  were not fine; in2019 hiz range was abysmal, there is a reason he does not play Third unless there is no alternative.

[jorgenswest]

Any other thoughts on trading for a SS? Aaron Gleeman in the Athletic highlighted Adames and Kiner-Falefa noting that Adames would require parting with substantial value in trade. 

[Doctor Gast]

11 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

Any other thoughts on trading for a SS? Aaron Gleeman in the Athletic highlighted Adames and Kiner-Falefa noting that Adames would require parting with substantial value in trade. 

IKF is a great fall back choice, I'm very interested in him. He's also great at 3B, he could be non tender today, I was wondering our chances of picking him up.

Adames is trickier, MIL still wants to be competitive so their intention IMO is get more impact MLB ready players. They are looking for a catcher and some pitchers to replace Burnes or Woodruff. I doubt we have enough to satisfy their needs, maybe a 3 way trade could work.

Sounds like a pretty interesting article.

[chpettit19]

12 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

Any other thoughts on trading for a SS? Aaron Gleeman in the Athletic highlighted Adames and Kiner-Falefa noting that Adames would require parting with substantial value in trade. 

I wouldn't give up anything to get IKF, but if he's non-tendered today he'd be worth looking at if they aren't able to get one of the top SS on the market.

[EGFTShaw]

One thing I've noticed, (late to the party), is that it feels like an either or with C4 and if we think L&L could man the SS position in the future.

Lewis, (part 1 of the L&L), has had 2 issues with the same ACL.  The procedure and recovery are much much better than in the past, but he may not be back well enough to play SS.  This is a known/unknown.

Lee is a Noob++.  Got his feet wet this year.  Great pick up by the Twins.  But still another known/unknown.  (PS that's proj mgmt speak...LOL)

Let's assume the Gods of Baseball favor the Twins, (hey...ever the optimist despite rooting for the MN teams).

We sign C4 (and he produces), L&L both demonstrate they are above average SS.

Luxury...

One could slide over to 2B.  So you have maybe Miranda, C4, Lewis/Lee, Louis.  All can hit.  At least 3/4 of that will be above average in defense. 

One of the L&L could shift to the outfield, be traded or rotate in/out with the rest of the infield.

The Twins have a Once in my Long Lifetime to do something special this year in the offseason.

I want to see them do just that.

Go Big or admit you are not going to go for a WS when a golden opportunity presents itself to play Big Boy Baseball.

It's not sustainable with our TV market/deal, but I would go for it; market the hell out of it in Merch and enjoy the ride.

Also, it would be sooooooooooooo fun to you into Yankee stadium and beat them down.

[Musk21]

Reuniting with IKF is off the table as he and the Yankees have avoided arbitration by agreeing on a one-year, $6 million contract.

[ashbury]

36 minutes ago, Musk21 said:

Reuniting with IKF is off the table as he and the Yankees have avoided arbitration by agreeing on a one-year, $6 million contract.

Unless that just gives payroll certainty to whomever he is traded to....

[Doctor Gast]

We got Farmer RH hitter who smashes LHP. Luis Guillorme would be a very good platoon. I wen looked him up on Youtube and found this (sometime goofy) video from a met fan.

Split	G	GS	PA	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	SB	CS	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	TB	GDP	HBP	SH	SF	IBB	ROE	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
vs RHP	86		239	213	29	63	8	1	2	12	1	0	23	33	.296	.367	.371	.738	79	11	1	2	0	1	1	.343	114	11