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SS- Maybe a trade?


Doctor Gast
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All you hear is our need at SS, and rightfully so because it should be our #1 priority. We talk about Plan A resigning FA Correa or another big name for big bucks and long term or Plan B sign low budget/ low talent short term FA. Or maybe Plan C pick up limbo Kiner Falefa which NYY could let go or keep which we can trade for a song. Plan A will be expensive, Plan B will be terrible, Plan C isn't bad but there could be a Plan D which could be the best.

Plan D is making a signficant trade. On the surface there seems to be nothing out there but if you dig deeper you can come up with some nuggets. 1st name is Willy Adames (MIL) has 2 yrs on his contract. He has a solid glove but his calling card is his bat. 2nd name is Nico Hoerner (Cubs) has three years left on his contract. Because of need he was converted  from 2B to SS and he surprised everyone with his glove & bat. Both clubs are fairly deep at SS & rumors have it that the Cubs are looking for a big name FA SS.

Both these guys are safety nets, where if Lewis comes back 100%  we can reshuffle or easily trade him but if Lewis stumbles we can extend the one we choose long term. If we come up with a trade that's interesting to either of them we could solve our SS problem. What do you think of them? Who would you choose? or Do you have another SS to trade for? Do you have any info to share? Please do.

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Nico Hoerner seems like a good fit depending on where the Cubs feel they are in their rebuild. Adams I think would be much harder to get because the Brewers will be in win mode again next season. Ha-Seong Kim and Luis Guillorme, who someone mentioned in their team build, might fit as well. None of them will produce like Correa. But one of them plus 35.1 mil invested in roster upgrades might and then some.

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28 minutes ago, weitz41 said:

Nico Hoerner seems like a good fit depending on where the Cubs feel they are in their rebuild. Adams I think would be much harder to get because the Brewers will be in win mode again next season. Ha-Seong Kim and Luis Guillorme, who someone mentioned in their team build, might fit as well. None of them will produce like Correa. But one of them plus 35.1 mil invested in roster upgrades might and then some.

Thanks Weitz, I actually got the Hoerner idea from you at BTV. Agreed that an Adames trade would be trickier & needs more creativity but maybe Falvey would be up to it. I'll check out both Kim & Guilorme. 

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I checkout Guillorme and I really like him, he's really a great all around player & bats left. Mets have Lindor & talk about picking up another. NYM are deep in INFers he'll get a lot of playing time with us.

How do you come up with these good names Weitz?

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27 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

I checkout Guillorme and I really like him, he's really a great all around player & bats left. Mets have Lindor & talk about picking up another. NYM are deep in INFers he'll get a lot of playing time with us.

Same on Gullorme. Maybe a Keplar for Gillorme would work. Yeah, I had something similar to your on BTV. But a 3 team. One of my co-workers mentioned Hoerner today and I had long periods of down time, so I was checking that out. Cubs are supposedly interested in spending big at SS. 

Good names? You mean players names? If that, it came from someone's roster on this site with the roster building tool.  Took a look at Guilorme and thought wow he's pretty good. Ha Seong Kim is someone I had on a fantasy baseball team for a while. Which is how I knew about him.

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48 minutes ago, weitz41 said:

Same on Gullorme. Maybe a Keplar for Gillorme would work. Yeah, I had something similar to your on BTV. But a 3 team. One of my co-workers mentioned Hoerner today and I had long periods of down time, so I was checking that out. Cubs are supposedly interested in spending big at SS. 

 

Where do these ideas come from ?

Trade a superior fielding right fielder for a poor hitting , below averag SS, good grief!

Just what the Twins need a big hole at Short AND Right Field.

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4 minutes ago, RpR said:

Where do these ideas come from ?

Trade a superior fielding right fielder for a poor hitting , below averag SS, good grief!

Just what the Twins need a big hole at Short AND Right Field.

 

I think his post is about other options. Missing out on Correa and signing maybe Iglesias is a better option? The Twins need to do something about the LH corner OF mess. Parting with one covering SS and dealing with the consequences is better than pretending it's not there. Plus 35 mil can solve the RF defense, BP and probably a starter as good as Gray.

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If the Twins cannot sign Correa, Bogearts, or Turner then they should consider Elvis Andrus. After that major dip the choices are slim and at that point I'm all for Austin Martin or Brooks Lee if the first two options fail. Hopefully the decision comes early to allow for shifts to whatever other plans the Twins have with their 2023 roster.

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1 hour ago, RpR said:

Where do these ideas come from ?

Trade a superior fielding right fielder for a poor hitting , below averag SS, good grief!

Just what the Twins need a big hole at Short AND Right Field.

You are just jealous, RpR, Where do you get your ideas? Your idea of a good SS is one who  can hit some HRs, you don't care if he can field. Priority at SS is first a slick glove if he can hit above average it's iceing on the cake, which he sure can.

Kepler can easily be replaced, RF isn't a critical position.

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20 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

You are just jealous, RpR, Where do you get your ideas? Your idea of a good SS is one who  can hit some HRs, you don't care if he can field. Priority at SS is first a slick glove if he can hit above average it's iceing on the cake, which he sure can.

Kepler can easily be replaceable, 

Where did you get that drivel?

I am one of Simmons biggest supporters ? a slick glove is the item I have supported above anything at Short Stop without exception., this dude does not hit as well as Simmons did in his good years, and not a good SS fielder which is why in 5 years he has played there 37 times. plus in 5 years he has 4 home runs and a whole 39 rbi.

Yeah it just simple to find some one who is a superior fielder in Right as it was in left.

They could put Wallner out there, yep, Wallner -- here comes da ball, oh darn , there goes da ball .?

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1 hour ago, RpR said:

Where do these ideas come from ?

Trade a superior fielding right fielder for a poor hitting , below averag SS, good grief!

Just what the Twins need a big hole at Short AND Right Field.

Trading Kepler away for a SS would open up playing time for a good hitter in right field like potentially Wallner or sign a more sure Righty bat like Mitch Haniger or Aaron Judge :)

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4 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Trading Kepler away for a SS would open up playing time for a good hitter in right field like potentially Wallner or sign a more sure Righty bat like Mitch Haniger or Aaron Judge :)

I forgot that having Kepler around is what's keeping us from signing Judge.  :)

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We all of us just want a team to watch and root for in October. IDC how it happens as long as it happens and am open to downgrading here to upgrade there. Rolling the dice (within reason) for a winning lottery ticket. Hell yeah! Hope, wish, maybe this or maybe that. Ideas good or bad are better than being complacent. I'd rather hear someone's opinion then only hear my own.

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24 minutes ago, weitz41 said:

We all of us just want a team to watch and root for in October. IDC how it happens as long as it happens and am open to downgrading here to upgrade there. Rolling the dice (within reason) for a winning lottery ticket. Hell yeah! Hope, wish, maybe this or maybe that. Ideas good or bad are better than being complacent. I'd rather hear someone's opinion then only hear my own.

Amen.

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https://elitesportsny.com/2022/09/13/luis-guillorme-finally-has-shot-at-end-of-season-hardware/  

Guillorme has a great glove the problem is he's playing behind Lindor. His hitting is respectable, I believe he's a person who bats better when he's played more often. 

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One of the keys for any team and I believe it is a major key is you have to be strong defensively up the middle.  Catcher(s) who can call a good/balance game, manage a full staff of arms on the mound.  Pitching who can throw strikes, field the ball and command location for your scouting reports.  SS to lead the infield, make DP's automatic and have a strong arm for OF assists.  Then in CF you are the captain of the defense.  All plays are in front of you and thus you have to be a communicator on the scouting report, balls in the gap and help corner OF'ers on where the ball should be thrown.  Defense, Defense, Defense.  

Do we have that?  Catchers are manageable, improvement is always welcomed.  Fielding Pitchers, for the most part we don't seem to be far off.  SS with Correa, sure, moving forward TBD.  CF if he stays healthy we are set, if not, we have one of the weakest throwing bandaids on the roster covering a key position.

Offense from anyone of those positions is a bonus.  Orioles in the 70's to early 80's had one of the weakest offensive output from Catcher, SS and CF, but their defense is what shined.  Dempsey at Catcher, Belanger at SS and Blair/Bumbry in CF.  All multiple points on + side of WAR.  Then along came Ripken (Big, Strong, Athletic) who really changed the position at SS, Power on Offense, not elite power but could sting one every now an then.  

The perceived notion that every player on the team should bomb away to 15-40 HR's a year is ridiculous.  Give me some small ball to balance out the team on offensive side anyway.  Work the count, bunt to move guys, steal a base or two = putting pressure on the opposing team to be stellar at defense.  Then, you bop them over the fence on occasion with traditional, position players with power.

Showing my age for sure, but damn the games back in the day were strategically fun were a joy to be around.  Chicks who dig the long ball mantra is tiresome.

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Hoerner has a BTV of 33.9. That would be equivalent to sending them back Miranda and Julien. That would be a really expensive safety net. Not as expensive as Adames though. He has more value than any Twin in the organization. Would you send Brooks Lee and Yasser Mercedes for him?

Shortstops are really expensive in either players or dollars. I hope they spend the dollars.

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I don't think the Twins have the farm system to make a trade like this and still have the depth of prospects you need to stay competitive. Hoerner has 3 years of control left, and Adames is the MVP of the Brewers. Neither of those guys would be cheap. Like you're talking Lewis or Lee to even get the conversation started. That's a hefty price to pay.

Trading for a fill in SS that would give way to Lewis or Lee makes even less sense to me. Just sign Iglesias or some other vet who's easily pushed aside. Why give up any talent for someone you expect to be replaced in half a season?

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5 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

Hoerner has a BTV of 33.9. That would be equivalent to sending them back Miranda and Julien. That would be a really expensive safety net. Not as expensive as Adames though. He has more value than any Twin in the organization. Would you send Brooks Lee and Yasser Mercedes for him?

Shortstops are really expensive in either players or dollars. I hope they spend the dollars.

Both MIL & Cubs will try to compete this season so they won't be asking for prospects, they'll be asking for MLB players. If we cut some fat these trades are doable, like you said it'd be expensive. But my intent for this thread is to discuss options so we can put together a team that can compete in the post season.

In discussion I discovered that we don't have to go Adames or Hoerner route, there could be a better one. Last year almost no one had heard of Hoerner, he never hit any post juicedball HRs and never got much time on the field but his glove was the same. This year he got the opportunity to play regularly at SS, his bat came alive and he's one of the best SS out there.

Guillorne, has a pretty darn good glove & he can hit & get on base but he has played sporatically, because NYM are loaded with INFers led by Lindor. This year Buck Showalter played him a lot more & he put up career best #s. My point is NYM is looking for another big name SS to shove into that crowded INF, making Guillorne highly available. We can pick him up for a Kepler type trade, I can see Guillorne blossom just like Hoerner did. If you look only at stats you'd miss this opportunity.

Correa will be expensive but beyond his offense & defense skills what makes him appealing to MN is his fit, leadership & mentorship. IMO all the other big bucks SSs aren't worth it. If we don't land Correa, my plan B is trade for Guillorne and spend the Correa $ some where else.

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1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

Guillorne, has a pretty darn good glove & he can hit & get on base

Maybe he is the answer but I also think he shows why it would be so hard to fill the spot. He did start as a SS in the minors but he has played mostly 2B and 3B in the majors. I haven’t seen him  play SS but I don’t see anything in the data that suggests he has a darn good glove. I also don’t see anything to suggest he will have power. The walk rate is good though. He may be the best option for a stop gap. Maybe the Mets would take Paddack for him. I still would rather spend dollars than players to find a SS.

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7 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't think the Twins have the farm system to make a trade like this and still have the depth of prospects you need to stay competitive. Hoerner has 3 years of control left, and Adames is the MVP of the Brewers. Neither of those guys would be cheap. Like you're talking Lewis or Lee to even get the conversation started. That's a hefty price to pay.

Trading for a fill in SS that would give way to Lewis or Lee makes even less sense to me. Just sign Iglesias or some other vet who's easily pushed aside. Why give up any talent for someone you expect to be replaced in half a season?

This. They used their surplus prospects at the trade deadline.  Now they have to spend money or their farm system will be barren.  No way I give up a legit prospect when Lewis is likely back in June. 

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3 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

Maybe he is the answer but I also think he shows why it would be so hard to fill the spot. He did start as a SS in the minors but he has played mostly 2B and 3B in the majors. I haven’t seen him  play SS but I don’t see anything in the data that suggests he has a darn good glove. I also don’t see anything to suggest he will have power. The walk rate is good though. He may be the best option for a stop gap. Maybe the Mets would take Paddack for him. I still would rather spend dollars than players to find a SS.

It's hard to find data on him at SS because he plays behind Lindor & plays seldom but Statcast has him playing 52 innings there collecting 2 OAA and has +1 range in '22. Scouting reports says his defensive metrics profiles him as a SS. I've seen him play SS, he has good hands, range & instincts. He's an above average  line drive hitter probably never will be a true slugger, he hit 2 HRs this year.

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I hope they spend money and address the SS position long term. I REALLY want them to spend on it. BUT...last year's perfect storm just doesn't realistically seem possible. Drafting and trading for Lewis, Lee and Martin says that won't happen. Trades for (hopefully) short term needs is where this FO usually goes. A trade seems like the likeliest scenario whomever that may be. 

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On 11/10/2022 at 3:31 PM, jorgenswest said:

 I still would rather spend dollars than players to find a SS.

I respect your opinion Jorgenswest. But I'm in the other boat, I like trades, the idea of upgrading and keeping a trim roster so we can keep as many of our prospect off the rule 5 draft as possible. To me losing a rule 5 prospect is like giving away a lottery ticket w/o opening it. Again I believe all the teams that'll be open to trade off their excess SSs are teams that want to compete so they'll want established MLB players not prospects. I'm all for getting Correa but my plan B is the trade side.

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On 11/9/2022 at 2:31 PM, weitz41 said:

Nico Hoerner seems like a good fit depending on where the Cubs feel they are in their rebuild. Adams I think would be much harder to get because the Brewers will be in win mode again next season. Ha-Seong Kim and Luis Guillorme, who someone mentioned in their team build, might fit as well. None of them will produce like Correa. But one of them plus 35.1 mil invested in roster upgrades might and then some.

I could easily see Adames available one year from now because of the prospects coming up the Brewers system but believe there’s close to a zero percent chance of him being traded now. 

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16 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I respect your opinion Jorgenswest. But I'm in the other boat, I like trades, the idea of upgrading and keeping a trim roster so we can keep as many of our prospect off the rule 5 draft as possible. To me losing a rule 5 prospect is like giving away a lottery ticket w/o opening it. Again I believe all the teams that'll be open to trade off their excess SSs are teams that want to compete so they'll want established MLB players not prospects. I'm all for getting Correa but my plan B is the trade side.

I guess that would be similar to trading Garver for Kiner-Falefa so it is possible.

I am assuming that Kepler or Urshela or Pagán is not going to help bring back a starting shortstop though. I am assuming grouped with prospects are players like Miranda, Larnach, Kirilloff and Ryan who are young and cost controlled. Would you trade Polanco? Would the shortstop in return be any better than simply playing Polanco at SS. How about Thielbar or Arraez or Buxton?

If they can’t get a better than league average SS I hope they just go with what they have in Polanco. Maybe they need to give Gordon a look. His last long stretch at SS was with a body weakened by illness. I don’t think they can trade for that SS unless they give up young players or significant veterans. Arraez can be replaced by Miranda so he might be the best veteran with trade value that can be seen as excess on the Twins. I have grown to enjoy watching Arraez bat quite a bit so that would be a hard one to accept but it might be a good baseball move.

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19 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I believe all the teams that'll be open to trade off their excess SSs are teams that want to compete so they'll want established MLB players not prospects.

 

1 hour ago, jorgenswest said:

I guess that would be similar to trading Garver for Kiner-Falefa so it is possible.

Three-team trade, then?  Trade Rule-5 eligible prospects to a team doing a tear-down, taking an established player in return, and flipping to the team with the extra SS, with extra pieces as necessary?  (The Garver trade wasn't quite like that but turned out to be the start of a three-team deal. in effect)

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On 11/13/2022 at 10:11 AM, jorgenswest said:

I guess that would be similar to trading Garver for Kiner-Falefa so it is possible.

I am assuming that Kepler or Urshela or Pagán is not going to help bring back a starting shortstop though. I am assuming grouped with prospects are players like Miranda, Larnach, Kirilloff and Ryan who are young and cost controlled. Would you trade Polanco? Would the shortstop in return be any better than simply playing Polanco at SS. How about Thielbar or Arraez or Buxton?

If they can’t get a better than league average SS I hope they just go with what they have in Polanco. Maybe they need to give Gordon a look. His last long stretch at SS was with a body weakened by illness. I don’t think they can trade for that SS unless they give up young players or significant veterans. Arraez can be replaced by Miranda so he might be the best veteran with trade value that can be seen as excess on the Twins. I have grown to enjoy watching Arraez bat quite a bit so that would be a hard one to accept but it might be a good baseball move.

It'd be hard to trade Polanco or Arraez but I would if it'd make our team better & compete in the post season. I'd keep Theilbar because he'd be hard to replace. Buxton we can't but wouldn't anyway.

I wouldn't trust Gordon at such a critical postion as SS, I wouldn't sub Gordon at 2B much less SS. No way I'd put Polanco at SS, #1 he's not a SS, he's well below par, #2 he's coming off an injury and he has problems with his ankles playing there, #3 we have no one to play 2B, Arraez has no range even with the shift GB would bleed by him (it's pains me to watch him play there). Now with the shift ban, any positive Arraez would have offensively would be totally negated  & then some with him at 2B.

Like I said I would trade Polanco but then we'd have get someone outside the organization, I'd rather wait until Lewis, Martin or Julien are ready & then trade him at the deadline.

 

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