Article: Series Preview: Tigers @ Twins, 4/1

[Mike Sixel]

Btw, criticizing one at bat for Maurer is not the same, at all, as criticizing his career. But it sure is a great straw man.

[jokin]

Yeah but it ranks way down on the list of bad. Morneau's at bat when we needed a base runner was 10 times worse.

 

But the play behind the plate... Is worse yet. That's fundamentals... Ball in the dirt... Get down and block...

 

Standing up is something a third grade catcher does and I'm not exaggerating. 3-2 game bases loaded... Two outs.

 

He should seriously be docked a million from his salary for that.

 

The first wild pitch wasn't nearly as bad, but probably preventable by better fundamentals, particularly with a slow runner on base at the time.

 

But Mauer was not alone out there in the failure to execute department by any means. IE, Florimon's drop on the SB attempt could have easily been scored an error. It looked like a team that might benefit from a 20 degree temperature increase.

[glunn]

So, how did the team do on the little things? Not well, again. So sad.

 

Keep in mind that it was their first game and freezing cold.

[PseudoSABR]

Honestly, I'm pretty happy about Mauer hitting second, Gardy pinch hitting for Florimon in the 6th with the bases loaded, the recovery by Worley after a rocky start, and the bullpen's competence.

 

However, the Twins really came up empty in big moments--that at bat by Parmelee with the bases loaded bothered me just as much as the passed ball by Mauer.

[Brock Beauchamp]

However, the Twins really came up empty in big moments--that at bat by Parmelee with the bases loaded bothered me just as much as the passed ball by Mauer.

 

That was just an awful AB. He didn't swing at the only pitch in the zone (it can be argued if it was in the zone or not) and flailed away at two pitches in the dirt.

[Mike Sixel]

Keep in mind that it was their first game and freezing cold.

 

they make millions, well on most teams players do, they should be ready for game one. I was happy for Worley, that is about what I expected from him all year. I approve.

[ashbury]

Honestly, I'm pretty happy about ... Gardy pinch hitting for Florimon in the 6th with the bases loaded

 

I think Gardy pretty much spelled out his plan, when he said a couple of weeks ago he wanted a bat with some pop on the bench. He'll augment one very weak spot in the lineup with a better bat at a strategic moment. The game went according to script in this respect.

[Riverbrian]

The first wild pitch wasn't nearly as bad, but probably preventable by better fundamentals, particularly with a slow runner on base at the time.

 

But Mauer was not alone out there in the failure to execute department by any means. IE, Florimon's drop on the SB attempt could have easily been scored an error. It looked like a team that might benefit from a 20 degree temperature increase.

 

First game... Something to build on...

 

Here's a Florimon positive... I saw the highlight on his play on the Cabrera grounder.

 

Oh my. Not many SS's can make that play... Ranging that far and throwing that well across his body against momentum.

 

Now if he can just make the routine play with that.

[PseudoSABR]

I think Gardy pretty much spelled out his plan, when he said a couple of weeks ago he wanted a bat with some pop on the bench. He'll augment one very weak spot in the lineup with a better bat at a strategic moment. The game went according to script in this respect.

I just think that's a boon. Something we haven't had Gardy do for a decade. The hot seat might be good for Gardy, actually.

[Alex]

I "downplayed" OPS (which I really didn't do) and Mauer's OPS is still .920 with men on base. If you weight it properly, he looks even better as a hitter.

 

Joe went 2-4 and walked once. You need to reevaluate what you expect from the man. Jesus.

 

How about we lay some blame on the other eight guys in the lineup who combined for a fearsome five hits over nine innings?

 

Mauer can't win with some people. You are dead on when you said people would have complained if he rolled over trying to turn on one and they would have complained if he would have let it go. It's ridiculous.

[Brock Beauchamp]

To reiterate Mauer's game for those who think he should have "tried harder" or whatever in that last AB...

 

The only out Mauer made all game was that horrible, awful AB where he flied out to left.

 

That's it. That was the only out recorded on Mauer all day.

 

Meanwhile, Willingham, Plouffe, and Parmlee all left four guys on base in that game. Mauer? He left one. From that AB that was so horrible. Eight guys combine for 26 outs, Joe Mauer hits into a single out, and somehow Joe is still at fault for what happened in that game.

 

Honestly, people. What the hell do you expect from this guy? I'm so sick and bloody tired of hearing people whine about Mauer when it's so blatantly obvious that he is far and away the best hitter on the team and one of the top hitters in all of baseball. Cut the guy some slack once in awhile. He's not going to post an .800 OBP all season.

 

With that said, his defense was absolutely suspect in that game and a complete disappointment. We should all expect better from Joe than that botched "wild pitch" and that throw to second. He's a better player than that.

[Gernzy]

To reiterate Mauer's game for those who think he should have "tried harder" or whatever in that last AB...

 

The only out Mauer made all game was that horrible, awful AB where he flied out to left.

 

That's it. That was the only out recorded on Mauer all day.

 

Meanwhile, Willingham, Plouffe, and Parmlee all left four guys on base in that game. Mauer? He left one. From that AB that was so horrible. Eight guys combine for 26 outs, Joe Mauer hits into a single out, and somehow Joe is still at fault for what happened in that game.

 

Honestly, people. What the hell do you expect from this guy? I'm so sick and bloody tired of hearing people whine about Mauer when it's so blatantly obvious that he is far and away the best hitter on the team and one of the top hitters in all of baseball. Cut the guy some slack once in awhile. He's not going to post an .800 OBP all season.

 

With that said, his defense was absolutely suspect in that game and a complete disappointment. We should all expect better from Joe than that botched "wild pitch" and that throw to second. He's a better player than that.

 

This +500. People need to realize he's not going to go 5-5 with 5HR every night

[Mike Sixel]

One guy on the thread, I think, complained about him. I merely said you can criticize one at bat (and I did not say if that guy was right to criticize that particular at bat), w/o it being an indictment of an entire season or career. I've seen him have bad at bats, and I've criticized those particular at bats. That is NOTHING like criticizing his every at bat. I'm not sure how that is hard to understand.

 

And, not one person, ever, has expected him to go 5-5 with a HR every night. Sorry.

 

But, Brock is right, the other guys were the issue yesterday. Parmalee swinging on 2-0 is a brutal mental error, the kind the coaches are responsible for. It is their job to coach and teach, and if players are not learning, well, that is partly on the teacher/coach. That's why these guys make the money they make as coaches.

[Brock Beauchamp]

One guy on the thread, I think, complained about him. I merely said you can criticize one at bat (and I did not say if that guy was right to criticize that particular at bat), w/o it being an indictment of an entire season or career. I've seen him have bad at bats, and I've criticized those particular at bats. That is NOTHING like criticizing his every at bat. I'm not sure how that is hard to understand.

 

And, not one person, ever, has expected him to go 5-5 with a HR every night. Sorry.

 

But, Brock is right, the other guys were the issue yesterday. Parmalee swinging on 2-0 is a brutal mental error, the kind the coaches are responsible for. It is their job to coach and teach, and if players are not learning, well, that is partly on the teacher/coach. That's why these guys make the money they make as coaches.

 

And my point is that baseball is a game of failure. Outside of Barry Bonds, how many guys have actually had seasons where they were more successful in avoiding outs than getting on base?

 

It was one at-bat in a game that was, overall, very solid offensively for Joe. He walked, hit a single and a double. Instead of complaining about Joe, we need to look squarely at the rest of the lineup, which was basically a miserable failure the entire game (particularly Parmelee's absolutely atrocious at-bat with one out). And even Chris had a decent game compared to the rest of the team, taking two walks without a hit.

 

Also, two people complained about that AB by Mauer.

[Mike Sixel]

But, and I don't agree with bashing Mauer as a general rule, in a game thread, aren't people reacting to the immediate at bat? And complimenting or bashing one guy has nothing to do with the other guys. I've never understood that part either. I complimented Worley, but that comment ONLY had to do with Worely, no one else. Just as ripping 1 AB by Mauer is ONLY about Mauer, not about if anyone else was to blame for anything or not. It is pretty hard to comment on every aspect of the game, in every post.

[Brock Beauchamp]

But, and I don't agree with bashing Mauer as a general rule, in a game thread, aren't people reacting to the immediate at bat? And complimenting or bashing one guy has nothing to do with the other guys. I've never understood that part either. I complimented Worley, but that comment ONLY had to do with Worely, no one else. Just as ripping 1 AB by Mauer is ONLY about Mauer, not about if anyone else was to blame for anything or not. It is pretty hard to comment on every aspect of the game, in every post.

 

Chief used that at-bat as reasoning for why Mauer isn't one of the top hitters in baseball. It was more than just that at-bat... It was an indictment of Mauer as a player.

[Mike Sixel]

Ah, well, then we are talking past each other, my bad.

 

I'm not sure he's one of the top 20 or 30 players in baseball anymore. But that's a different discussion.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm not sure he's one of the top 20 or 30 players in baseball anymore. But that's a different discussion.

 

Until his OBP drops well below .400 on a regular basis, I'd have a hard time not putting him in the top ten hitters in the game. People weigh slugging percentage far too heavily compared to OBP when it should be the inverse. Getting on base is the most important thing a hitter can do, period.

 

And it's not as if Mauer is completely devoid of power, either. If the Twins were still in the Metrodome, he'd almost surely hit 5-7 more homers a year. If Mauer was playing 81 games in Fenway, he'd be hitting 50 doubles a year and people wouldn't be questioning his ability in the slightest.

 

On the other hand, it's getting harder to ignore his growing defensive deficiencies. He's just not the catcher he was 3-5 years ago. Yesterday was just sloppy. Hopefully it was a fluke because of the cold weather and rust from Spring Training but it was a pretty miserable performance.

[Mike Sixel]

I did not say hitter, I said player. His defense has really dropped, and he's a DH 25% of the time. I also do not value catcher defense nearly as much as other positions that actually have to field batted balls, and I know many people on the planet do not agree with me on that. I do agree, the ability to not make outs is super, super important. But, I think discounting SLG is not good either. With no one on base late in the game and two outs, I want a home run, not a walk.

 

And, he does play in TCF, so it does not matter to me that he's in the wrong stadium, because this is the stadium he is in and that is not changing any time soon. I also think that discounting his salary as not part of the discussion, for a team that absolutely refuses to have a big payroll is ignoring a very large part of the issue. He's 25% of the payroll, and its only going to be worse next year probably. That does have an effect on the roster, and if he's going to be paid $23MM per year, he literally needs to carry the team, or he's not worth the money. BBTN had him 33rd, so it's not like I'm alone in this.

[Mr. Brooks]

I did not say hitter, I said player. His defense has really dropped, and he's a DH 25% of the time. I also do not value catcher defense nearly as much as other positions that actually have to field batted balls, and I know many people on the planet do not agree with me on that. I do agree, the ability to not make outs is super, super important. But, I think discounting SLG is not good either. With no one on base late in the game and two outs, I want a home run, not a walk.

 

And, he does play in TCF, so it does not matter to me that he's in the wrong stadium, because this is the stadium he is in and that is not changing any time soon. I also think that discounting his salary as not part of the discussion, for a team that absolutely refuses to have a big payroll is ignoring a very large part of the issue. He's 25% of the payroll, and its only going to be worse next year probably. That does have an effect on the roster, and if he's going to be paid $23MM per year, he literally needs to carry the team, or he's not worth the money. BBTN had him 33rd, so it's not like I'm alone in this.

 

The reason a good hitting catcher has more value is not necessarily tied to how much value that position has defensively. It has more value because someone is required to play that position, and on average it's the hardest position to fill with a good hitter.

[Mike Sixel]

What does that have to do with the relative value of catcher defense compared to other positions?

[Brock Beauchamp]

I did not say hitter, I said player. His defense has really dropped, and he's a DH 25% of the time. I also do not value catcher defense nearly as much as other positions that actually have to field batted balls, and I know many people on the planet do not agree with me on that. I do agree, the ability to not make outs is super, super important. But, I think discounting SLG is not good either. With no one on base late in the game and two outs, I want a home run, not a walk.

 

And, he does play in TCF, so it does not matter to me that he's in the wrong stadium, because this is the stadium he is in and that is not changing any time soon. I also think that discounting his salary as not part of the discussion, for a team that absolutely refuses to have a big payroll is ignoring a very large part of the issue. He's 25% of the payroll, and its only going to be worse next year probably. That does have an effect on the roster, and if he's going to be paid $23MM per year, he literally needs to carry the team, or he's not worth the money. BBTN had him 33rd, so it's not like I'm alone in this.

 

I'd agree on the player bit. I value catching a lot (particularly when compared to the average catcher) but Joe's ability to stay behind the dish is suspect. Still, he's a top 30 player. I don't think there is any real doubt to that (and to say he's not is making the argument that every MLB team, on average, has a better player than Joe... I just can't see that argument made with a straight face). Catchers that OPS above .800 are extremely valuable and rare. Catchers that OPS over .800 in Target Field are even more so.

 

To elaborate a bit, Mauer was 11th or 12th in OPS+ last season. Once you adjust for ballpark, his ranking jumps a lot. And that still doesn't take into account how OBP-heavy Mauer's stat line is compared to most players, which jumps his ranking even more. Then factor in his catching and it jumps even more...

 

Anyway, I think we mostly agree here, I'm just a little higher on Mauer than you are. I think this season will be very telling. If he catches 100+ times and OPSes between 850 and 900, his value is a top 20 player. If he DHes 50 or more games, then his value drops considerably.

 

As for salary, I tend to ignore it. Mauer is paid a lot and is a very good player, probably a first-ballot HoFer if he does this for 3-4 more years before tailing off. It'd be nice if Mauer "put the team on his back" but I'm not even really sure what that means. To me, putting a team on your back is going out there and performing at a level unrivaled by the rest of the team. And Joe already does that, so I don't put a ton of stock into it. He's not a ra-ra guy. I'm not a ra-ra guy either so I probably skew toward not caring about that as much as some people.

 

And FTR, BBTN is mind-numbingly dumb. I tend to put zero stock in almost anything they say.

[Mike Sixel]

If he OPS+ over 850 and catches 120+ games, sure, he's in the top 20-40, we agree on that I think.

[Guest USAFChief]

Defending Mauer in that AB seems to indicate a lack of situational awareness. Down 2, bottom 8. 2 out, a runner on. The count gets to 2-0, and you have the platoon advantage. Great. The situation SCREAMS "take a shot," and you're in a situation where you can afford to look for your pitch, and if you get it, try to get out in front and hook one, tying the game. It's what most any player with any kind of power would, and should, be looking to do. If you don't get your pitch, fine. Let it go. Readjust your strategy. If you get your pitch and swing through it, or foul it off, fine. If you get it and make contact, but get under it a bit and fly out to right, fine. If you top it, and ground out to first, fine. Nobody hits a HR on every swing, even in BP.

 

But TAKE A SHOT. Sit on your pitch, and take a friggin swing that's intended to put the ball in the RF seats. That's how the game is played. Getting a pitch that you swing at, but sticking with your standard "flare one to left" strategy is just...weak. Few, if any, middle of the order hitters anywhere in baseball settle for that swing, because it's bad baseball. It's no different than wasting outs, or any other bad strategy.

 

Yeah, Parmelee and others had bad ABs through the game too. That's another issue, and has nothing to do with Mauer's particular AB, in THAT situation. It was a bad AB, and I'll point those out just as much as I'll point out others.

 

If you can't see that, or want to counter with "he expects 5 HRs every game" strawmen, knock yourself out.

 

For the record, if this was an isolated incident, it would be one thing. It's not. Never altering the way you approach an AB isn't a good thing.

[edavis0308]

Can't you argue that if he had hit it more weakly, it would have fallen for a base hit in no man's land, and the whole blame game on Mauer would be a moot point? That's more odds than not a trademark Mauer double down the line in most cases. In this particular instance, he just got under it a little.

[Guest USAFChief]

Can't you argue that if he had hit it more weakly, it would have fallen for a base hit in no man's land, and the whole blame game on Mauer would be a moot point? That's more odds than not a trademark Mauer double down the line in most cases. In this particular instance, he just got under it a little.

If he bloops one down the LF line for a double, in that situation, it's still a mistake. The point is, he should be trying to pull that pitch. If the count gets to 2-2, fine. Take one to left. Not on 2-0, down 2.

[Physics Guy]

I hate this day off in the middle of the first series. Put it at the end as a travel day. I want to watch again tonight

[Alex]

If he bloops one down the LF line for a double, in that situation, it's still a mistake. The point is, he should be trying to pull that pitch. If the count gets to 2-2, fine. Take one to left. Not on 2-0, down 2.

 

This is bordering on preposterous. Chances of a double, followed by another single are actually better than a HR.

 

I don't remember where the pitch was, but I'd guess if it's inside he would have pulled it. Additionally, did you consider the weather at all? How many balls even made it to the to the track? Stuff, especially up was dying out there.

[ashbury]

Chances of a double, followed by another single are actually better than a HR.

 

Also, it was a speedy runner at first base. Even the cheesiest double has a decent chance of scoring him.

 

You know who had the poor plate appearance that inning? Hicks. He played right into the Tigers' hands by taking that walk. Should have popped out meekly, setting up Mauer to lead off the ninth like we were forecasting in this thread.

[Mike Sixel]

While I love Mauer, I do think that to "carry a team", when it is 2-0 and your team needs a HR, a great hitter swings to hit a HR. He's the best hitter on the team, and late in games he takes walks when the team needs hits. I think there are differences in situations. In general, a hitter's job is not to make an out. But late in a game, sometimes you need a hit more than a walk, and HR more than a single.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong here, but I think one reason Bonds hit HRs was because when he got his pitch, he swung to hit a HR, not to avoid an out. I think Mauer could hit more HRs if he wanted to, and I think there are situations (say, 8th or 9th inning, two outs, and no one on base down a run) where the increased chance of a HR is worth the increased chance of making an out (just like late in the game a sacrifice bunt can make sense ).

 

Again, maybe I'm wrong. I really don't know for sure. But I think to argue that there are not situations where different approaches make sense is an odd argument to make.