Reusse: Always are Angry Twins Followers

[ThePuck]

Yeah I remember something about that. Bert also plucked him with a baseball back in the day. I'm not saying Reusse is a Twins cheerleader or apologist but he usually seems fair in his assessments and (in general) tries to see a good path forward.

 

I edited my post above to give you quotes :-)

[Winston Smith]

Reusse wants to keep his spot in the front of the Twins press box buffett line.

Maybe Patrick and Souhan can co-author a book on the proper etiquette of being a real Twins fan. Never a negative word from those two.

[John Bonnes]

Strange thing is, Reusse has always been Mr. Negative. It's funny HE comes out complaining about fans' negativity.

 

He seems more like a contrarian, which makes this even funnier. Whichever way the stream is flowing, Reusse will be fighting the current.

 

That might seem admirable to some, but I wonder if it's any different than parroting the mob mentality. Either way, you don't really get to choose the side. This one is just more work. (With a payoff of more attention.)

 

It is interesting that this same story was not written in 2010. Because that's the time when you could really tell who the haters that fell into each of these categories were. If, during a 95 win season, and after six postseason appearances in the last decade, you can still grump about one of these four things, you might be a little unhinged.

 

But right now, it's the exact opposite:

 

If, after two 90+ loss seasons, plus being on the verge of another, plus a $30+ million payroll decrease over the last two years, plus an offseason where the biggest free agent signing is almost universally panned, AND finally not looking at a truly competitive team for at least a couple more years....if after all that, you feel the need to look at a fan base that is pessimistic and describe them as "haters"....then you might be the one who is a little unhinged.

[Mike Sixel]

Great post John....

[ThePuck]

He seems more like a contrarian, which makes this even funnier. Whichever way the stream is flowing, Reusse will be fighting the current.

 

That might seem admirable to some, but I wonder if it's any different than parroting the mob mentality. Either way, you don't really get to choose the side. This one is just more work. (With a payoff of more attention.)

 

It is interesting that this same story was not written in 2010. Because that's the time when you could really tell who the haters that fell into each of these categories were. If, during a 95 win season, and after six postseason appearances in the last decade, you can still grump about one of these four things, you might be a little unhinged.

 

But right now, it's the exact opposite:

 

If, after two 90+ loss seasons, plus being on the verge of another, plus a $30+ million payroll decrease over the last two years, plus an offseason where the biggest free agent signing is almost universally panned, AND finally not looking at a truly competitive team for at least a couple more years....if after all that, you feel the need to look at a fan base that is pessimistic and describe them as "haters"....then you might be the one who is a little unhinged.

 

Nice post!

[Brock Beauchamp]

For example, Aaron Hicks. We've had a long and ugly discussion about him in several places on this board. But only one poster had the courage to show her enthusiasm at what she sees: a star in the making--a quieter, switch hitting Torii Hunter with patience. The moment she posted it, there were a bunch of haters saying a) The Twins would be idiots to keep him in April because of salary and team control issues down the road he's not ready because he strikes out to much or whatever, c) he's had a couple of bad years in the minors so he's obviously not as good as the experts claim, or d) unlike all you optimists, I saw him play once and he went 0-4 with three strikeouts.

 

Virtually nobody on this board is down on Hicks. A few (myself included, though I'm not adamant on the subject) want to see him get a little time in Rochester. We don't predict doom-and-gloom for the guy... In fact, it's the exact opposite. We're excited to see him play but want to make sure he's ready for the big leagues before tossing him into the fire and think that managing his clock at the same time is a good idea.

 

If we were all down on him and didn't think he was deserving of his top 100 prospect status, why would we care about his service clock?

 

Yet somehow, restrained excitement = Negative Nelly while a poster's positive-yet-not-based-on-anything-more-than-position-comp is "courageous".

[gunnarthor]

 

If, after two 90+ loss seasons, plus being on the verge of another, plus a $30+ million payroll decrease over the last two years, plus an offseason where the biggest free agent signing is almost universally panned, AND finally not looking at a truly competitive team for at least a couple more years....if after all that, you feel the need to look at a fan base that is pessimistic and describe them as "haters"....then you might be the one who is a little unhinged.

 

Come on, John, you're better than that. I think the 'haters' are the people that are unrealistic fans who just want to bitch. No one is happy about the losing but unless you're the Yankees you can't be up forever. The team plummeted to the bottom but they already have one of the top farm systems in baseball and a GM with a track record of fixing things. It's not like the Twins are becoming the Pirates or Royals. They'll have a few down years - although this is probably going to be the worst one - and cycle back up. Not sure we need to hate on Ryan or Gardy for that.

[Alex]

Virtually nobody on this board is down on Hicks. A few (myself included, though I'm not adamant on the subject) want to see him get a little time in Rochester. We don't predict doom-and-gloom for the guy... In fact, it's the exact opposite. We're excited to see him play but want to make sure he's ready for the big leagues before tossing him into the fire and think that managing his clock at the same time is a good idea.

 

If we were all down on him and didn't think he was deserving of his top 100 prospect status, why would we care about his service clock?

 

Yet somehow, restrained excitement = Negative Nelly while a poster's positive-yet-not-based-on-anything-more-than-position-comp is "courageous".

 

Thanks for this post. That's my perspective on Hicks, too, not to mention what also frustrates me about posts like cmathewson's where honest analysis/criticism is taken as such a negative. People on this board who are critical of some of the team's moves don't follow the team and just read fangraphs? Ridiculous.

 

As for Reusse's article, it takes the same tact, arguing to a perspective that is on the fringes. Most people don't fall into those categories at all. I would say that there are parts of 1-3 that are true, but that there are incredibly few people who actually fall into those categories.

 

One other thing I think Reusse missed in his article is that not only is it easier to be heard via social media. It's also easier to get information. This allows people to be more aware of what other perspectives are out there besides the information the Twins are feeding the news reporters. A great example of this is the perspective we saw last season from media outlets and the Twins on players like Dozier (I think he was called the Next Big Thing) and Marquis (called a "control" pitcher with similar BB/9 to Liriano). Most people looking and listening beyond what the Twins predicted (perhaps we even looked at some statistics on fangraphs!) that their transitions would not go well.

[TiberTwins]

I think this board and the Strib board are not representative of the heart of Twins fans. More like fringe groups on either end of one rug.

 

The Strib board haters don't pay close attention to the team, but they have their "big money" hatred. If the team gets a new stadium, they should win it all every year. Anything less is a crime against the taxpayers. And Mauer is the chief perpetrator.

 

The other fringe, which I see on this board quite a bit, are people who don't pay close attention to the team, but think they can get everything they need to know from Fangraphs. They ignore trends and improvement, and find whatever negative stat they can to show how player X will suck this year. Then they multiply it out over the whole team and a 65-win team is born.

 

Unfortunately, we have the silent majority that makes up most of the rug, those who are routinely called cool-aid drinkers on this board. Folks like you and me are naturally optimistic, want to root for the team and not against it, and look for reasons to be optimistic.

 

For example, Aaron Hicks. We've had a long and ugly discussion about him in several places on this board. But only one poster had the courage to show her enthusiasm at what she sees: a star in the making--a quieter, switch hitting Torii Hunter with patience. The moment she posted it, there were a bunch of haters saying a) The Twins would be idiots to keep him in April because of salary and team control issues down the road he's not ready because he strikes out to much or whatever, c) he's had a couple of bad years in the minors so he's obviously not as good as the experts claim, or d) unlike all you optimists, I saw him play once and he went 0-4 with three strikeouts.

 

All the haters miss a crucial fact: The other candidates are either not ready (Benson) or not regulars (Mastroiani). So let's just accept the fact that he's the best player available right now and will likely win the job. And why not get excited about a BA top 100 prospect entering his rookie season? What is wrong with enjoying the thought of that?

 

The haters equate being negative to being critical. And somehow, if you're not critical, you're an idiot. News flash, you can be critical and still be positive. You can say Hicks has work to do on his outfield throws and still say he's an exciting player. You can pick apart his game and still say he's as good as Span right now and has much higher upside. That's the fun of being a fan. No player is perfect. All players fail two thirds of the time. But are they good enough to help the team win over the long season? If so, and you can provide good reasons why, stating them doesn't make you an idiot. It makes you smarter than the haters who paint in black and white, and mostly black.

 

Thank for so eloquently stating what happens on this board so often. This team has sucked for two years. It happens in the cycle of baseball franchises. Our owners are not willing to spend huge amounts of cash that they have and that is their decision. Mistakes were made by members of the front office and those were soundly bashed and beaten to death. I would add that people will not let go of mistakes made and move on. I have season tickets and fully realize that they will probably not have a good record this year. I am excited to see some of the talent for the future and enjoy outdoor baseball. I enjoy reading the statheads comments and appreciate their effort to understand the players abilities and flaws. I don't have the time to look at those things but realize that they are part of the game. The bitterness posted by some is unfortunate but I tend to skip through those posts and move on to those I feel contribute to the forum.

[Boom Boom]

There's always angry fans of every team. This is not unique to the Twins. I don't understand Reusse's point.

[stringer bell]

Much like several others, I think the payroll shell game is not being honest with the public. I also wonder if the whole organization is stuck in a system that worked a decade ago, but might not be successful any more. I pass very little blame to Gardenhire and don't think Mauer is the problem except that it is very tough for the face of the franchise to be a catcher.

[ND-Fan]

I have been a fan since i was little boy and lived through up and downs with the Twins. The things that frustrate me most is when management won't just tell the truth that they are rebuilding and tell how they are going to do it. Don't come out say one thing like last fall with the impression they were going to add talent by free agency to help compete until good young talent coming up is here and basically do nothing but fill in with bottom tier of talent and not even address thier middle infielder depth. I like the young talent Twins have and i hope Hicks can be big star this year will mean the Twins will have better year than expected. I like what Cubs management said one night on MLB that they were rebuilding but were adding pitching depth in case this group played better than expected and they would have chance to compete. I think Terry Ryan can rebuild this team but i get frustrated at pace he does it and i think the new school of sabermetrics could help them do it quicker. Gardy i think is still one of better managers if he has talent to make the moves he likes in the game but you cann't be very good manager if your starting pitching gives up 4 to 5 runs before the 5 th inning. Joe Mauer is still elite player in the game of baseball and his drop in power i think is soley because of Target field. Target Field takes away power Twins had in Metrodome and makes hitters adjust to hitting differently. I saw analysis of Mauers home runs when he was in Metrodome and compared to Target field more than half would have been fly balls in target field. I think i am like a lot of Twins fans frustrated would like to hear how Twins are going to get competitive again and

how Twins are achieving these goal because if there not spending it on talent now are they increasing their spending to get player in minor league system etc.

[bird]

Like Reusse, Chief, and quite a few of you, I'm a 50-year fan. These categories don't fit me and my friends. Over the decades, I've been dissappointed and disagreed with many decisions, and sometimes I'm even proven wrong. Like about 90% of the time. I like hearing criticism from knowledgable and passionate fans.

 

My only complaint is against commenters who hide behing their anonymity and take personal pot-shots at people who are not able to defend themselves. The "victims" of those personal insults tend to be wealthy and in the public eye, but that doesn't make them fair game.

 

I'm a Reusse fan. He's got heart. And I love it that he's taking a shot at the behavior of constantly negative, mean-spirited know-it-alls.

[Badsmerf]

I guess when you hate on the Twins you have to fall into a category. Put me in the category that has paid attention to how other teams have been winning and criticize the Twins are making blatantly obvious poor decisions. Its pieces like this I can't stand. The Twins deserve to get blasted when they finish with over 90 losses in back-to-back season, they deserve to get blasted for their complete disregard of the FA while slashing payroll to almost metrodome level. When writers like Reusse put things like this up it makes fans think they don't have a right to be critical, which is completely wrong. Right now Twins fans shouldn't be happy, their team sucks after a decade of mild success.

[Mike Sixel]

I agree with Badsmerf, why would we not be criticizing them at this point? I'm confused....

[zenser]

At the end of the day, I want to see the Twins succeed. I don't just want them to make the playoffs, I want them to win in the playoffs. Some may call me a hater for my stances on this team. Like all of you, I call myself a passionate fan.

[DaveW]

I'm not angry about any of those things, in reality teams like the Twins go through good stretches and bad stretches (in all sports really). It is smart to rebuild now and go for another 7-8 year window of winning like the Twins just came off of.

 

I am a little frustrated with the Pohlads, but that is what it is, everyone hates sports owners.

[Mike Sixel]

I love the Wilfs. They went into debt to fix the practice facilities, they put up a ton of money for the stadium, they spend most of the salary cap every year. The year they were good, they brought in free agents to try to get over the top. so not everyone hates sports' owners....

[cmathewson]

Those four states were taken directly from a thread yesterday. I'm glad you're not down on Hicks. Several people were. Those who weren't emphasized the need to send him down to stop his clock for another year. Only a couple of people in a 145-comment thread thought he should come north.

[Willihammer]

I love the Wilfs. They went into debt to fix the practice facilities, they put up a ton of money for the stadium, they spend most of the salary cap every year. The year they were good, they brought in free agents to try to get over the top. so not everyone hates sports' owners....

 

Big fan of Leopold too

[Brock Beauchamp]

Those four states were taken directly from a thread yesterday. I'm glad you're not down on Hicks. Several people were. Those who weren't emphasized the need to send him down to stop his clock for another year. Only a couple of people in a 145-comment thread thought he should come north.

 

I just read through that entire thread and one person said Hicks might fail because he strikes out too often.

 

Well, it's true. He might fail because he strikes out too often. He strikes out a lot. Other than that, the vast majority fell into the "I'm not sure he's ready but I have high hopes for him" camp.

 

Don't you see that people wanting Hicks to get a little more seasoning are actually high on him as a player? If they were down on him, they wouldn't care if his clock started yesterday.

 

You're calling blind optimism "courageous" and reasoned restraint "negative". It makes no sense. Some of the biggest Hicks supporters are the ones who want to see him handled carefully because they like his future so much that they want to see the Twins get the absolute most they can out of the kid. Just because they're not standing up and screaming about how much they just addddooooooooore Hicks and his three Spring Training dingers doesn't mean they aren't excited about his future with the team. It's the exact opposite, actually.

[snepp]

Those four states were taken directly from a thread yesterday. I'm glad you're not down on Hicks. Several people were. Those who weren't emphasized the need to send him down to stop his clock for another year. Only a couple of people in a 145-comment thread thought he should come north.

 

You're really stretching things here to support that horse you've climbed up on.

[JB_Iowa]

My dissatisfaction with the Twins probably includes something from each of those elements (not much of #4, though) but overall, my major complaint is just that they seem stuck in a rut to me. Even with the changes in the coaching staff, I have no faith that TR will ever take enough risks (or risk enough money) to really build a team that can contend with the very best in the league. And while I believe that Gardenhire's even keel philosophy has been very beneficial in the regular season, I find it impossible to see him as a good post-season motivator or leader. And maybe that ties into my Mauer complaint as well, I'm just not sure that if this is "Joe Mauer's team" they'll ever have that post-season success (his personality works for him - I'm just not sure his leadership works for the team). Overall, these probably aren't factors to worry about for the next couple of years anyway but I just don't have any faith that this leadership can ever build or lead a team that truly has prospects of post-season success. (As for the money thing, it makes me angry that they cut the budget as much as they did this year -- even though I don't see the team competing, they do seem to owe it to the fans and taxpayers to put the best team they can afford on the field -- and from everything we've seen, they can afford more than $75-$80 million).

[bird]

I love the Wilfs. They went into debt to fix the practice facilities, they put up a ton of money for the stadium, they spend most of the salary cap every year. The year they were good, they brought in free agents to try to get over the top. so not everyone hates sports' owners....

I love the Pohlads. They bought the team from Calvin. They put up a ton of money for the stadium, They spent their entire draft and international allottments. And now that the stadium revenue is in place and the strategy of building from within is about to pay huge dividends, as evidenced by their fabulous pipeline of prospects, they'll have the budget to get over the top. so not everyone hates sports' owners....

 

But hey, Mr. Wilf. It's meaningless to just get to the playoffs, you know. You have to aspire for more than mediocrity.

[Mike Sixel]

I have never said it is meaningless to get to the playoffs, never. Here I tried to post a positive thought, and it gets turned around with negativity. Maybe Reusse is right after all.

[bird]

I just drew a positive analogy, mike. Nothing negative about that.

[ThePuck]

I have never said it is meaningless to get to the playoffs, never. Here I tried to post a positive thought, and it gets turned around with negativity. Maybe Reusse is right after all.

 

By one person...who is apparently a staunch defender of the Pohlads...what with them so spending SO much for a ballpark for their own team (not even the majority of the cost) and them threating to move the team (oh, wait, they NEVER would have done that, would they?) Offering up the team for contraction (oh wait, that must not have happened. Pohalds wouldn't do that) and them spending so much in the draft even though their allotment was the highest due to the amount of high picks they had...shocking they'd spend more than anyone else in that situation...shocking! :-).

 

They are the model owners. Pay homage and don't put any owner above them...sounds like one of the Commandments :-)

[Mike Sixel]

I just drew a positive analogy, mike. Nothing negative about that.

 

I must have totally misinterpreted the point of your last sentence then, because it sure sounded negative when I read it.

[ThePuck]

I must have totally misinterpreted the point of your last sentence then, because it sure sounded negative when I read it.

 

It's exactly how it sounded...

[Mike Sixel]

Point of clarification, did they spend their draft allotment last year? I thought they did not. Not that it mattered, I don't think. I think nothing they did would have changed had they decided to spend it, just curious about the facts, that's all. I don't think, for example, they would have taken a different player later on, that needed more money....