Zulgad: Is MLB really making return about dollars and cents?

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I disagree, very much so. I’ve read your posts for years Chief. I know you wouldn’t be entertained watching minor league talent play in the best professional baseball league in the world. Without a strong union, the players would get railroaded in negotiations time and time again.

 

I don’t pay money to stream the owner’s suite. I pay to watch the best baseball players on the planet play the game.

without the MLBPA the best players in the world wouldn’t play in the MLB.

 

We see every day with independent and minor league baseball that without the MLBPA the salaries wouldn’t cut it to attract the best players.

 

Without the players associate, Joe Mauer would have played for the LG Twins.

[Major League Ready]

 

without the MLBPA the best players in the world wouldn’t play in the MLB.

We see every day with independent and minor league baseball that without the MLBPA the salaries wouldn’t cut it to attract the best players.

Without the players associate, Joe Mauer would have played for the LG Twins.

 

The next highest paid league in the world is the KBO. There average salary is one-eight of MLB players. Is it your contention that salaries would be cut from an average of 4.4M to $550K or do you believe these players would get a regular job.

 

I don't see how the players that make huge money that drives the average up would get any less. Those are all a product of free agency. So, unless you are suggesting free agency would go away all together, I don't see compensation changing much. Surely not enough to lose talent. We would not  lose any players if the average salary was half what it is today. I would love to hear what they would do instead if compensation was half of what is is today. BTW, it was 1/4 of current compensation 25 years ago. It was an eight 30 years ago. How did we ever get players back then. 

 

Actually, without the MLBPA, perhaps MiLB players would get a better deal. I can't see why owners would object to dropping the huge signing bonuses. They could redistribute 80% of that money (roughly $220M/year) to MiLB wages and increase MiLB pay by $30k/player.

 

Are you really going to suggest MLB players would not pay for 1/2 of what they get today?

 

[USAFChief]

without the MLBPA the best players in the world wouldn’t play in the MLB.

 

We see every day with independent and minor league baseball that without the MLBPA the salaries wouldn’t cut it to attract the best players.

 

Without the players associate, Joe Mauer would have played for the LG Twins.

I'm guessing, without the MLBPA, the composition of MLB wouldnt change by one single player. Where are they going? What are they going to do, sell real estate?

 

They'd still make huge sums for playing baseball. The MLBPA serves no purpose other than furthering player's financial recompense beyond reason.

 

I'll watch baseball, with the same players, whether Mike Trout makes $30m or $10m. Maybe I'll even have to spend a little less to do so, and maybe adding a salary cap and floor will help flatten the advantages large market clubs enjoy.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

The next highest paid league in the world is the KBO. There average salary is one-eight of MLB players. Is it your contention that salaries would be cut from an average of 4.4M to $550K or do you believe these players would get a regular job.

 

I don't see how the players that make huge money that drives the average up would get any less. Those are all a product of free agency. So, unless you are suggesting free agency would go away all together, I don't see compensation changing much. Surely not enough to lose talent. We would not lose any players if the average salary was half what it is today. I would love to hear what they would do instead if compensation was half of what is is today. BTW, it was 1/4 of current compensation 25 years ago. It was an eight 30 years ago. How did we ever get players back then.

 

Actually, without the MLBPA, perhaps MiLB players would get a better deal. I can't see why owners would object to dropping the huge signing bonuses. They could redistribute 80% of that money (roughly $220M/year) to MiLB wages and increase MiLB pay by $30k/player.

 

Are you really going to suggest MLB players would not pay for 1/2 of what they get today?

the players unionized in 1966. Were it not for unionization, free agency and the collective bargaining agreement as we know it, today, would not exist. No union, no collective bargaining. No collective bargaining, no free agency.

 

In 1967 (earliest I could find) average MLB salary was 2.4x average US household Income. In 2019 89k x 2.4 = $213k average Mlb salary in 2019.

 

Players would absolutely go to the KBO for double the salary.

[Vanimal46]

 

I'm guessing, without the MLBPA, the composition of MLB wouldnt change by one single player. Where are they going? What are they going to do, sell real estate?

They'd still make huge sums for playing baseball. The MLBPA serves no purpose other than furthering player's financial recompense beyond reason.

I'll watch baseball, with the same players, whether Mike Trout makes $30m or $10m. Maybe I'll even have to spend a little less to do so, and maybe adding a salary cap and floor will help flatten the advantages large market clubs enjoy.

 

Are you advocating that a business like MLB stops growing? And, in fact, decrease revenues from $10 billion today? Because that doesn't sound like a reasonable solution in this capitalist world where everyone wants year over year growth. 

 

If you're not, what you're really advocating then is the owners pocketing more of the profits than they currently are. 

[ashbury]

If you're not, what you're really advocating then is the owners pocketing more of the profits than they currently are. 

Not necessarily. You're forgetting scalpers secondary markets. When the owners graciously lower ticket prices in response to salary concessions, someone will step in to play arbitrage. Free markets, remember? It won't cost any less to attend a game, for all intents and purposes.

 

[Darius]

Your bias is blinding you to a very simple reality. That reality is that if the owners only option is to lose far more by playing that equals no baseball this year. The owners likely lose more money by playing under their proposed terms than not playing at all. If the players feel they would rather earn nothing than to accept less than full-compensation (prorated) the owners are going to lose substantially more. When they are already facing an average loss of $127M, the prospect of losing substantially more likely means no baseball.

 

It's possible the owner's just decide to take it in the shorts to protect the long-term interests of the game. They can control spending relatively easily and they can get it back over the next several years. The burden will land on free agents and non-tendered players over the next few years. Mookie Betts probably is going to wish he had taken Boston's offer.

So if Amazon takes a loss in any given year they should shut it down?

 

Why do people not think about this as cumulative thing? It makes zero sense. They’ve made revenue hand over fist for years, which 99% of players can’t say. So many expenses related to baseball that generate the “net income” you see are non-cash (depreciation, amortization). Those are factored into that income number for any given team. You know what isn’t, the appreciation in value of their assets. I don’t recall the exact numbers, but the Pohlads have netted nearly a billion dollars in the appreciation in value of the club....and were a small to mid market club (imagine that number for the Steinbrenner family). The facts are, the owners aren’t really “losing money.” That’s a ridiculous statement and it’s propaganda. It’s a number on paper that doesn’t match the reality of the cash flow and appreciation in assets. It’s accounting.

 

Why don’t the owners go to the TV companies and say, sorry we need to renegotiate? Why shouldn’t they pull their weight? Ratings for games are going to be off the charts. Why does the bite come from the player’s apple who is making $250k. You don’t think those players rely on that salary to meet obligations they have (mortgages, many players fund families and extended families, etc - real people, real issues - not multi billionaires who could take years of losses without even noticing).

 

Guess what, they’ll “lose money” on paper just the same if baseball isn’t played. They’re still paying for stadium maintenance. They’re still paying some employees. They’re still paying themselves. Their assets are still depreciating. It’s not like the expenses stop if baseball stops. The owners need baseball a hell of a lot more than the players do, IMO. Would you work your job for pennies on the dollar just to prevent the guy who owns your company from taking a loss?

 

I honestly don’t think people actually think this through in real-life terms. There’s some propaganda out there through that crook Manfred’s office with the owner’s sob story....and people buy it hook line and sinker.

 

I love Boras’ take on this, the debt agreements, etc. he’s 100% spot on, despite what you’ll hear from people who don’t truly understand finance and accounting. The owners made their bed by the business decisions they’ve made. They are in fact looking for a “bail out” as Boras puts it. If you can’t pay your employees without losing money, that’s on you in any line of business. You weren’t prepared, and you made bad decisions. Your employees aren’t going to show up for nothing out of the goodness of their hearts or to make users of the product feel warm and fuzzy.

 

You do realize the Pohlads fortune came from foreclosing in people, banking, and borderline predatory practices. They didn’t give anyone a break when things got tough. Why the hell should anyone give those money grubbing parasites a break?

[Major League Ready]

 

the players unionized in 1966. Were it not for unionization, free agency and the collective bargaining agreement as we know it, today, would not exist. No union, no collective bargaining. No collective bargaining, no free agency.

In 1967 (earliest I could find) average MLB salary was 2.4x average US household Income. In 2019 89k x 2.4 = $213k average Mlb salary in 2019.

Players would absolutely go to the KBO for double the salary.

 

I am not sure where you are coming from here.  The average salary for Japanese Players was roughly (900K) KBO players averaged 44.5M WON which converts to $116,716.  See link below.

 

If MLB compensation were cut in half, they would still make 2.44X as much as the next highest paid league. So, I ask again, how would we lose players if the MLBPA ceased to exist? Where free agency is concerned. I am not sure if we would have it or not without the MLBPA but what has that got to do with the future. Do you think free agency would go away without the union? That's not going to happen.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/675557/average-npb-salary-by-team/

[Major League Ready]

 

So if Amazon takes a loss in any given year they should shut it down?

Why do people not think about this as cumulative thing? It makes zero sense. They’ve made revenue hand over fist for years, which 99% of players can’t say. So many expenses related to baseball that generate the “net income” you see are non-cash (depreciation, amortization). Those are factored into that income number for any given team. You know what isn’t, the appreciation in value of their assets. I don’t recall the exact numbers, but the Pohlads have netted nearly a billion dollars in the appreciation in value of the club....and were a small to mid market club (imagine that number for the Steinbrenner family). The facts are, the owners aren’t really “losing money.” That’s a ridiculous statement and it’s propaganda. It’s a number on paper that doesn’t match the reality of the cash flow and appreciation in assets. It’s accounting.

Why don’t the owners go to the TV companies and say, sorry we need to renegotiate? Why shouldn’t they pull their weight? Ratings for games are going to be off the charts. Why does the bite come from the player’s apple who is making $250k. You don’t think those players rely on that salary to meet obligations they have (mortgages, many players fund families and extended families, etc - real people, real issues - not multi billionaires who could take years of losses without even noticing).

Guess what, they’ll “lose money” on paper just the same if baseball isn’t played. They’re still paying for stadium maintenance. They’re still paying some employees. They’re still paying themselves. Their assets are still depreciating. It’s not like the expenses stop if baseball stops. The owners need baseball a hell of a lot more than the players do, IMO. Would you work your job for pennies on the dollar just to prevent the guy who owns your company from taking a loss?

I honestly don’t think people actually think this through in real-life terms. There’s some propaganda out there through that crook Manfred’s office with the owner’s sob story....and people buy it hook line and sinker.

I love Boras’ take on this, the debt agreements, etc. he’s 100% spot on, despite what you’ll hear from people who don’t truly understand finance and accounting. The owners made their bed by the business decisions they’ve made. They are in fact looking for a “bail out” as Boras puts it. If you can’t pay your employees without losing money, that’s on you in any line of business. You weren’t prepared, and you made bad decisions. Your employees aren’t going to show up for nothing out of the goodness of their hearts or to make users of the product feel warm and fuzzy.

You do realize the Pohlads fortune came from foreclosing in people, banking, and borderline predatory practices. They didn’t give anyone a break when things got tough. Why the hell should anyone give those money grubbing parasites a break?

 

The Amazon examples has no relevance here. MLB is not shutting down for good. They are making a decision as to if they should continue this year. The criteria is should they shut down if it cost them more to play. You speak of understanding finance and then offer no hard numbers. Anyone that has done this type of work in an actual business environment knows this kind of conjecture without fact will get you thrown out of the room and potentially a job. Show us supporting documentation.

 

Also, please explain how this is a paper loss. When operating expenses are greater than revenue, that's not a paper loss. Those expenses have to be covered from a different source. In this case, the owners have to take it from their personal finances, another business, borrow it or sell equity. 

 

The who t's on you if you can't pay employees is absurd. This is not the result of bad planning or management. It the result of a pandemic for god sake.

 

 

[ewen21]

 

I hope the owners force the union's hand, and break it.

We would all be much better off if the MLBPA didnt exist. Baseball will be just fine with a new crop of players. In a few years, there will be zero impact on level of play.

This idea that the players aren't earning a fair wage is sickening to me.  They take on zero risk and have guaranteed money.  Nowhere in the world of reality for slobs like us does this exist.  Even average players earn more in a year than a lot of highly capable contributors to society make in their lifetime.  I can't for the life of me understand the player advocacy I see here.  They have advocates, a union, lawyers, agents, etc....doing that for them.

 

They really ought to play even if it's just some prorated amount.  Even the 25th man on any MLB roster will out earn all of us in just a few months of riding the bench.  Sorry if I don't rush to their side when the try to flex their muscles.  These are unprecedented times and the players are acting like they are above it all.  That is pretty hard to take for me

[ewen21]

 

So if Amazon takes a loss in any given year they should shut it down?

 

Stop.  There literally is no analogy in the corporate world for baseball.  Furthermore, Amazon is a service that has become essential at this point.  Baseball is not essential.  People who work for companies like Google and Amazon out west are earning $60, $70 a year and can't afford housing.  So please.....OK?  Get some perspective.

 

Players don't need to spend a dollar of their own money during the season.  They are put up in first rate hotels and get their meals checks daily.  The average salary in baseball in over 4 million dollars a year now.  If there are players who are fiscally irresponsible that is on them.  Bag groceries or something.  Make yourself useful if you aren't going to play

[ewen21]

 

Are you advocating that a business like MLB stops growing? And, in fact, decrease revenues from $10 billion today? Because that doesn't sound like a reasonable solution in this capitalist world where everyone wants year over year growth. 

 

If you're not, what you're really advocating then is the owners pocketing more of the profits than they currently are. 

Reads to me like he was just talking about baseball.

 

Everyone please.  Baseball has little to do with the real world in the way that it operates.  Over the last 30 years players salaries have increased by over 500%.  The boom happened and now it is going to experience a correction.  At least I hope it does.

 

If baseball reminds me of anything it is the housing industry

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I am not sure where you are coming from here. The average salary for Japanese Players was roughly (900K) KBO players averaged 44.5M WON which converts to $116,716. See link below.

 

If MLB compensation were cut in half, they would still make 2.44X as much as the next highest paid league. So, I ask again, how would we lose players if the MLBPA ceased to exist? Where free agency is concerned. I am not sure if we would have it or not without the MLBPA but what has that got to do with the future. Do you think free agency would go away without the union? That's not going to happen.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/675557/average-npb-salary-by-team/

I should, but don’t know how to do multiple quotes.

 

I read your post:

“The next highest paid league in the world is the KBO. There average salary is one-eight of MLB players. Is it your contention that salaries would be cut from an average of 4.4M to $550K or do you believe these players would get a regular job.“

 

I believed it to mean that KBO players make $500k and it sounded right to me directionally. I didn’t look it up.

 

My point previously was in regards to Chief who was playing “It’s a Wonderful Life” by wishing there was no MLBPA.

 

If the players never unionized a reasonable assumption would be that salaries wouldn’t have risen faster than average US wages. When MLBPA was at its infancy, Player Salaries were pegged at 2.4x average US household income.

 

The assumption is it would have stayed that way at 2.4x the 89k US income. Holding this assumption constant, I wonder if another league would have filled the void. If not the MLB dominant, why not KBO or Nippon?

[The Wise One]

 

This idea that the players aren't earning a fair wage is sickening to me.  They take on zero risk and have guaranteed money.  Nowhere in the world of reality for slobs like us does this exist.  Even average players earn more in a year than a lot of highly capable contributors to society make in their lifetime.  I can't for the life of me understand the player advocacy I see here.  They have advocates, a union, lawyers, agents, etc....doing that for them.

 

They really ought to play even if it's just some prorated amount.  Even the 25th man on any MLB roster will out earn all of us in just a few months of riding the bench.  Sorry if I don't rush to their side when the try to flex their muscles.  These are unprecedented times and the players are acting like they are above it all.  That is pretty hard to take for me

What risk for the owners? National TV contract, local contract tv money from other teams. There is very little risk,

[yarnivek1972]

The owners and the players are leveraging this "one off year" against each other for their looming CBA negotiation next year. see also: http://twinsdaily.com/topic/37148-mlb-proposal-seeks-bigger-cuts-from-premier-players/?do=findComment&comment=966218

 

What does 2021 look like? Will it be business as usual, or will there be some softness in ballpark consumer demand?

 

Personally, I'm not comfortable going to a ballpark now, and I'm skeptical that something is going to change drastic enough to change that for me next year, but judging by how busy the bars are here in Wisconsin, that is clearly not the same for everyone.

 

On the other hand, I'm willing to spend on streaming, but MLB doesn't want my money as I live in Twins Territory, they want me to get cable which I refuse.

 

Maybe the revenue streams are changing for the teams and the market needs to be recalculated? This may not be a one-off year entirely.

2021 isn’t likely to be better for baseball. The chances of a proven vaccine being developed before April 2021 are slim. The chances that it will be widely distributed by then are almost nil. Fall 2021 is the most realistically optimistic time for a vaccine to be widely available.

 

Many states won’t allow large groups (sports, concerts, etc) until then.

[Major League Ready]

 

I should, but don’t know how to do multiple quotes.

I read your post:
“The next highest paid league in the world is the KBO. There average salary is one-eight of MLB players. Is it your contention that salaries would be cut from an average of 4.4M to $550K or do you believe these players would get a regular job.“

I believed it to mean that KBO players make $500k and it sounded right to me directionally. I didn’t look it up.

My point previously was in regards to Chief who was playing “It’s a Wonderful Life” by wishing there was no MLBPA.

If the players never unionized a reasonable assumption would be that salaries wouldn’t have risen faster than average US wages. When MLBPA was at its infancy, Player Salaries were pegged at 2.4x average US household income.

The assumption is it would have stayed that way at 2.4x the 89k US income. Holding this assumption constant, I wonder if another league would have filled the void. If not the MLB dominant, why not KBO or Nippon?

 

That's a pretty wild assumption. For starters, Japanese and Korean teams simply can't generate the revenue that MLB can so the MLB has a huge advantage. You would have to assume that without the MLBPA, MLB teams would have paid so poorly that players would have gone to Japan or Korea. This assumption makes absolutely no sense. Team owners are running businesses that are a lot more complicated than baseball. You would have to assume MLB teams would have refused to pay enough to retain players. That requires you assume teams were run with absolute incompetence. Teams would have been massively profitable even at double the rates paid to NPBO or 5X KBO players. Also, baseball did not grow solely based on good players attracting fans. MLB has done a great job in terms of promotion, stadium atmosphere, and developing multiple revenue sources.

 

It also does not matter what might have happened. We are where we are. MLB players are paid 5X on average what NPBO players make. We would not lose any players if MLB compensation was cut in half.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

That's a pretty wild assumption. For starters, Japanese and Korean teams simply can't generate the revenue that MLB can so the MLB has a huge advantage. You would have to assume that without the MLBPA, MLB teams would have paid so poorly that players would have gone to Japan or Korea. This assumption makes absolutely no sense. Team owners are running businesses that are a lot more complicated than baseball. You would have to assume MLB teams would have refused to pay enough to retain players. That requires you assume teams were run with absolute incompetence. Teams would have been massively profitable even at double the rates paid to NPBO or 5X KBO players. Also, baseball did not grow solely based on good players attracting fans. MLB has done a great job in terms of promotion, stadium atmosphere, and developing multiple revenue sources.

 

It also does not matter what might have happened. We are where we are. MLB players are paid 5X on average what NPBO players make. We would not lose any players if MLB compensation was cut in half.

I would suggest watching It’s a Wonderful Life, great film

[Richie the Rally Goat]

This idea that the players aren't earning a fair wage is sickening to me. They take on zero risk and have guaranteed money. Nowhere in the world of reality for slobs like us does this exist. Even average players earn more in a year than a lot of highly capable contributors to society make in their lifetime. I can't for the life of me understand the player advocacy I see here. They have advocates, a union, lawyers, agents, etc....doing that for them.

 

They really ought to play even if it's just some prorated amount. Even the 25th man on any MLB roster will out earn all of us in just a few months of riding the bench. Sorry if I don't rush to their side when the try to flex their muscles. These are unprecedented times and the players are acting like they are above it all. That is pretty hard to take for me

I think major leaguers are paid fairly. MLBPA represents (poorly) Minor League Players too. I don’t think the 7,000 minor leaguers not on a 40 man roster are fairly paid. We point at the 750 players that average 4.5 million and claim they make too much money. They all started out making peanuts too (some, but minority with large bonuses). Players should protect their price, and hold firm to the owners opening their books, with all of the revenue related to the team including side ventures that benefit from the team.

 

It’s clear what skin in the game the players have because management publishes player contracts. It’s not clear what ownership revenue is, because they don’t publish their own books.

 

A fair negotiation has open books.

[USAFChief]

I should, but don’t know how to do multiple quotes.

 

I read your post:

“The next highest paid league in the world is the KBO. There average salary is one-eight of MLB players. Is it your contention that salaries would be cut from an average of 4.4M to $550K or do you believe these players would get a regular job.“

 

I believed it to mean that KBO players make $500k and it sounded right to me directionally. I didn’t look it up.

 

My point previously was in regards to Chief who was playing “It’s a Wonderful Life” by wishing there was no MLBPA.

 

If the players never unionized a reasonable assumption would be that salaries wouldn’t have risen faster than average US wages. When MLBPA was at its infancy, Player Salaries were pegged at 2.4x average US household income.

 

The assumption is it would have stayed that way at 2.4x the 89k US income. Holding this assumption constant, I wonder if another league would have filled the void. If not the MLB dominant, why not KBO or Nippon?

For one thing,I didnt wish the players had never unionized.

 

I said I hope the current situation leads to its demise.

 

As a fan, the MLBPA serves me no purpose. None. It has become a detriment to the game. Hard to argue otherwise, since it stands between nothing, and baseball July 1st.

 

Bust it, owners. 99 percent of the players will come crawling back. If they dont, in a decade the game will be no different anyway.

[bighat]

 

For one thing,I didnt wish the players had never unionized.

I said I hope the current situation leads to its demise.

As a fan, the MLBPA serves me no purpose. None. It has become a detriment to the game. Hard to argue otherwise, since it stands between nothing, and baseball July 1st.

Bust it, owners. 99 percent of the players will come crawling back. If they dont, in a decade the game will be no different anyway.

 

Not sure about whether or not I hope the players union gets bulldozed....but I agree with your overall sentiment here 100%.

 

What's going on right now is that players are saying a big "F-YOU" to the fans. They are not taking the fans into consideration at all. Zero, zip, nada. They've completely lost sight of the forest for the trees here.

 

This is an awful time for our nation - and the world. A once-in-a-lifetime scenario. Why not just say, just for this season: "Okay, we'll take it and do this one for the fans". It's not like they're getting totally shafted, either! I've seen all the details and I'm sure everyone has laid those out on this thread already. 

 

Baseball in Asia is back. European soccer in Germany is back already. English Premier League soccer is returning. The NHL is coming back with a weird little playoff thing. The NBA should be back as well.

 

Meanwhile, MLB is the only league out there that all you hear about is the fighting between owners and players. Squabbling. B*tching and moaning. And you know what? It's par for the course. A lot of people are sick of it. They will never lose me as a fan because I'm kind of a baseball nut, but I can see casual and even hardcore fans of the sport dropping like flies after this.

[Major League Ready]

 

I would suggest watching It’s a Wonderful Life, great film

 

You have a talent for avoiding anything that disproves your position. Would they or would they not play for 1/2 of what they earn now? I can't wait to see how you avoid the question now.

[Major League Ready]

 

Not sure about whether or not I hope the players union gets bulldozed....but I agree with your overall sentiment here 100%.

 

What's going on right now is that players are saying a big "F-YOU" to the fans. They are not taking the fans into consideration at all. Zero, zip, nada. They've completely lost sight of the forest for the trees here.

 

This is an awful time for our nation - and the world. A once-in-a-lifetime scenario. Why not just say, just for this season: "Okay, we'll take it and do this one for the fans". It's not like they're getting totally shafted, either! I've seen all the details and I'm sure everyone has laid those out on this thread already. 

 

Baseball in Asia is back. European soccer in Germany is back already. English Premier League soccer is returning. The NHL is coming back with a weird little playoff thing. The NBA should be back as well.

 

Meanwhile, MLB is the only league out there that all you hear about is the fighting between owners and players. Squabbling. B*tching and moaning. And you know what? It's par for the course. A lot of people are sick of it. They will never lose me as a fan because I'm kind of a baseball nut, but I can see casual and even hardcore fans of the sport dropping like flies after this.

 

I had the exact same sentiment as your 1st sentence when Chief 1st brought up the potential demise of the union. However, my thinking is swinging toward chief's position. The union is standing between us and baseball. I also believe the owners would either change the current bonus structure and redirect that money or pay the MLB players and average of $4M instead of $4.4M and redirect that money to MiLB players.

 

I do agree with you that the fans are not a consideration with players. As best I can tell with the available information, owners are going to lose even more by playing under the terms proposed. So, while they are willing to take an even bigger loss, the players are saying "F" the fans, I want every dime. I doubt that sentiment would be present without the union. The union went so far as to misrepresent the negotiations when the omitted they had agreed to renegotiate if fans were not present.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

You have a talent for avoiding anything that disproves your position. Would they or would they not play for 1/2 of what they earn now? I can't wait to see how you avoid the question now.

yes

[Richie the Rally Goat]

We would all be much better off if the MLBPA didnt exist.

Your words chosen were “didn’t exist”, not “disbanded”

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I had the exact same sentiment as your 1st sentence when Chief 1st brought up the potential demise of the union. However, my thinking is swinging toward chief's position. The union is standing between us and baseball. I also believe the owners would either change the current bonus structure and redirect that money or pay the MLB players and average of $4M instead of $4.4M and redirect that money to MiLB players.

 

I do agree with you that the fans are not a consideration with players. As best I can tell with the available information, owners are going to lose even more by playing under the terms proposed. So, while they are willing to take an even bigger loss, the players are saying "F" the fans, I want every dime. I doubt that sentiment would be present without the union. The union went so far as to misrepresent the negotiations when the omitted they had agreed to renegotiate if fans were not present.

the owners take us for granted continuously, including now. Why the players are villainous and owners are virtuous in yours and Chief’s points is puzzling to me.

 

There was an agreement to play, the owners chose themselves over the fans, that’s no more virtuous than the players saying no deal on the retry.

[Vanimal46]

 

Not sure about whether or not I hope the players union gets bulldozed....but I agree with your overall sentiment here 100%.

 

What's going on right now is that players are saying a big "F-YOU" to the fans. They are not taking the fans into consideration at all. Zero, zip, nada. They've completely lost sight of the forest for the trees here.

 

This is an awful time for our nation - and the world. A once-in-a-lifetime scenario. Why not just say, just for this season: "Okay, we'll take it and do this one for the fans". It's not like they're getting totally shafted, either! I've seen all the details and I'm sure everyone has laid those out on this thread already. 

 

Baseball in Asia is back. European soccer in Germany is back already. English Premier League soccer is returning. The NHL is coming back with a weird little playoff thing. The NBA should be back as well.

 

Meanwhile, MLB is the only league out there that all you hear about is the fighting between owners and players. Squabbling. B*tching and moaning. And you know what? It's par for the course. A lot of people are sick of it. They will never lose me as a fan because I'm kind of a baseball nut, but I can see casual and even hardcore fans of the sport dropping like flies after this.

 

The NFL is right around the corner, and will have their own internal battle between NFLPA and the owners too. 

 

Have they released the financial agreements between the other sports leagues that are back? Are Premiere League soccer players taking 50% pay cuts to return? 

[bighat]

 

The NFL is right around the corner, and will have their own internal battle between NFLPA and the owners too. 

 

Have they released the financial agreements between the other sports leagues that are back? Are Premiere League soccer players taking 50% pay cuts to return? 

 

Good question. In the case of the Premier League, I think they're just taking the approach that they're "resuming the season in full" after a long break. They will finish out the season with all the games that were originally on the schedule: https://www.espn.com/soccer/english-premier-league/story/4102936/premier-league-to-return-on-june-17-amid-coronavirus

 

So they're playing their full season, I guess. I think they said there are a few TV deals they need to iron out but as far as getting athletes on the field, it's a green light.

 

 

[Major League Ready]

 

the owners take us for granted continuously, including now. Why the players are villainous and owners are virtuous in yours and Chief’s points is puzzling to me.

There was an agreement to play, the owners chose themselves over the fans, that’s no more virtuous than the players saying no deal on the retry.

 

In my experience, business owners and those who lead large organizations are always much more concerned about their customers and the long-term health of an organization that the average employee. Billionaire's don't achieve that level of success without an acute awareness of their clients. Their success is a product of servicing said clients needs. 

 

The average baseball fan is not fanatical. Many of them understand the rest of the world is making concessions. Most of them understand the teams are going to lose an enormous amount of money. Most of them understand players would happily play for  a quarter of what they get paid if that's what revenue dictated. Yet, they are unwilling to make any concessions during a global pandemic. The "I need to get mine" is not going to play well with most people. 

[Vanimal46]

Good question. In the case of the Premier League, I think they're just taking the approach that they're "resuming the season in full" after a long break. They will finish out the season with all the games that were originally on the schedule: https://www.espn.com/soccer/english-premier-league/story/4102936/premier-league-to-return-on-june-17-amid-coronavirus

 

So they're playing their full season, I guess. I think they said there are a few TV deals they need to iron out but as far as getting athletes on the field, it's a green light.

I read Premier League is also being played without fans. So why is it only MLB owners complaining about not being able to afford their expenses?

 

I’m also seeing individual teams agreeing to percentage pay cuts during times when they weren’t playing games. Much different than ordering league wide cuts for all teams that MLB owners are proposing.

 

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/1273846/Premier-League-clubs-pay-cuts-wage-deferrals-coronavirus

[Major League Ready]

 

For one thing,I didnt wish the players had never unionized.

I said I hope the current situation leads to its demise.

As a fan, the MLBPA serves me no purpose. None. It has become a detriment to the game. Hard to argue otherwise, since it stands between nothing, and baseball July 1st.

Bust it, owners. 99 percent of the players will come crawling back. If they dont, in a decade the game will be no different anyway.

 

You are really making think, Chief, Not that this would ever happen, If the union allowed players to make an individual choice in this case, 95% of the players would be back immediately. Blake Snell would probably be among them. He would say he did not want to let his teammates down but he would be there for the money.

 

I don't think the game would be any different next year much less there be a 10 year adjustment provided free agency were to remain in tact. All of the current contracted players would be back. The union does not impact their situation at all. Players reaching arbitration are unaffected unless that went away after the current CBA expires. It seems to me owners are just fine with that process and it could easily remain in place without a union with some procedural adjustments required by the absence of a union.

 

Are the pre-arbitration players going to quit because there is no union? Not a chance.