Astros, Bauer, Pohlad's, Twins, Future of MLB

[AlwaysinModeration]

So let me get this straight. The Astros cheated in 2017, and won the World Series. The Red Sox cheated in 2018, and won the World Series.

 

In 2019, the lesson that all teams, including both the Astros and the Red Sox, draw is “we are not going to cheat, or cheat anymore?”

 

Does that seem remotely probable?

 

There is more to come out on this story.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Why is it that the heads of all the major league sports are pencil-necked geeks?

Sigh. I'm not even sure what you mean by that but it doesn't look good.

[Number3]

So let me get this straight as to how this sign stealing is supposed to have worked. The pitcher stares into the catcher as the catcher flashes the signs and the batter anxiously awaits the signal from the banging trash can which can't bang until the camera picks up the sign and gets it to the trash can banger while the batter, instead of simply concentrating on hitting and winning the game tries to pick up the trash can signal above the din of the crowd and the pitcher may already be into his wind up or even have delivered the pitch depending in the pitcher and whether or not he is pitching from a full windup and the pitch it self may be poorly executed or in an unexpected location or so perfectly executed that it is still very difficult to hit or is hit well but right at a defender. Sounds fool proof to me. Amazing that any Astros player ever made an out. They should still be playing in game one in the first inning. MLB is meeting at this moment to implement the slaughter rule. Sounds fool proof to me. By the way, ever tried wine made out of sour grapes? (The run on sentence was intentional; anything to do with runs)

[Don Walcott]

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2020/02/astros-spring-training-fan-trash-can-heckler-mlb-cheating-scandal

 

And so it begins . . . .

[nicksaviking]

 

So let me get this straight as to how this sign stealing is supposed to have worked. The pitcher stares into the catcher as the catcher flashes the signs and the batter anxiously awaits the signal from the banging trash can which can't bang until the camera picks up the sign

 

It's not on a 10 second delay, the trashcan bangers get the sign the same time the pitcher does

 

and gets it to the trash can banger while the batter, instead of simply concentrating on hitting and winning the game tries to pick up the trash can signal above the din of the crowd and the pitcher may already be into his wind up

 

Not unless Mark Buehrle is on the mound. They don't need some kind of cipher to decode the signs. 

 

or even have delivered the pitch depending in the pitcher and whether or not he is pitching from a full windup and the pitch it self may be poorly executed or in an unexpected location or so perfectly executed that it is still very difficult to hit or is hit well but right at a defender. Sounds fool proof to me. Amazing that any Astros player ever made an out.

 

Why? Batters make outs in the Home Run derby even when they know a meatball is coming.

 

They should still be playing in game one in the first inning. MLB is meeting at this moment to implement the slaughter rule. Sounds fool proof to me. By the way, ever tried wine made out of sour grapes? (The run on sentence was intentional; anything to do with runs)

 

Sorry, the only sour grapes that I hear these days is indignant Astro players and fans upset that there's now a stain on their franchise.

 

[cmoss84]

Just curious-how many of you predict that it will be more teams than just the Astros and Red Sox when it's all said and done? 

[AlwaysinModeration]

So let me get this straight as to how this sign stealing is supposed to have worked. The pitcher stares into the catcher as the catcher flashes the signs and the batter anxiously awaits the signal from the banging trash can which can't bang until the camera picks up the sign and gets it to the trash can banger while the batter, instead of simply concentrating on hitting and winning the game tries to pick up the trash can signal above the din of the crowd and the pitcher may already be into his wind up or even have delivered the pitch depending in the pitcher and whether or not he is pitching from a full windup and the pitch it self may be poorly executed or in an unexpected location or so perfectly executed that it is still very difficult to hit or is hit well but right at a defender. Sounds fool proof to me. Amazing that any Astros player ever made an out. They should still be playing in game one in the first inning. MLB is meeting at this moment to implement the slaughter rule. Sounds fool proof to me. By the way, ever tried wine made out of sour grapes? (The run on sentence was intentional; anything to do with runs)

When did Carlos Correa start reading Twins Daily?

[DocBauer]

Just curious-how many of you predict that it will be more teams than just the Astros and Red Sox when it's all said and done?

 

That's a great question. Not sure I have an answer. There have been a few whispers and accusations, of course but nothing substantiated as of yet. Actually, unless I missed something, I don't believe the Red Sox have any actual charges levied against them as of yet.

 

IMO, there would have been a good chance the Mets might have continued the cheating trend as their new/removed manager came from this mess. But I have doubts that Astros players who moved on, Marwin for example, suddenly went in to a clubhouse and said "look at what we did! We should do it here too!"

 

So I am thinking this will be isolated to a team or two. But I am not recalling any additional coaches or FO personnel who may have moved to other teams.

[Thrylos]

 

 

Judd Zulgad wrote a brilliant article on February 13th concerning the removal of Jim Crane as owner of the Astros.

 

What say all of you?

This is the equivalent of SKOR North wanting to remove Zulgad from ownership of his car, because he has too many parking tickets.

 

It ain't North Korea.  The Astros are Jim Crane's property.

[Mr. Brooks]

This is the equivalent of SKOR North wanting to remove Zulgad from ownership of his car, because he has too many parking tickets.

 

It ain't North Korea. The Astros are Jim Crane's property.

Not quite.

MLB owners are part of a co-op, which together makes up MLB.

Owners can be removed for behavior that is detrimental to the league. They agree to that standard when they enter into the co-op.

 

Somewhat like buying a restaurant franchise. Yes, you own the restaurant. But there are standards that you agree to, and failure to do so can result in the franchise being removed from you.

[nicksaviking]

 

This is the equivalent of SKOR North wanting to remove Zulgad from ownership of his car, because he has too many parking tickets.

 

It ain't North Korea.  The Astros are Jim Crane's property.

 

More like revoking his license to operate that car which forces him to sell or abandon it as it no longer provides him a benefit.

 

Ask Marge Schott if there are effective tactics to remove an owner.

 

Off the top of my head, some combination of taking away all 1-2 round draft picks, limiting international spending to 50K and/or a ban on post season play for Houston as long as Crane owns the team should do the trick. I believe all of those things lie within the discretion of the commissioner.

 

Should removal be of interest to the rest of the league that is.

[wombat28]

I consider golf one of the four major sports, along with MLB, NFL, NHL, and the NBA(that's my B1G math). And I consider the PGA and MLB the two sports that are the most "true to play" and honest. By true to play I mean it's impossible for officiating to call an NBA and NHL game correctly with that type of play, grabbing, reaching, poking, etc. And the NFL has only gotten worse with what is and isn't pass interference and of course allowing offensive linemen to hold on virtually every play. Golf, with high definition TV and the ability to penalize a player after their round is complete is as true to play and honest as it gets. And MLB, now with instant replay is truly about skill and talent, no bad officiating, blown calls, and cheap shots (Bosa's hit to O'Neill's head). I'm old school and didn't agree with instant replay in MLB, I said if the ball's at second before the runner, he's out even if the bag isn't touched. But here we are and I've adapted, now I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm in favor of the electronic strike zone. Ump's are human and they give a Verlander or a Kershaw a call that a Dobnak or Gibson wouldn't get (not every time), but it's true, they're human. The Astro's scandal is what prompted me to write this, because I truly do believe the PGA and MLB are the only two major sports that are even remotely close to pure skill, talent, and honesty.

[Road trip]

 

More like revoking his license to operate that car which forces him to sell or abandon it as it no longer provides him a benefit.

 

Ask Marge Schott if there are effective tactics to remove an owner.

 

Off the top of my head, some combination of taking away all 1-2 round draft picks, limiting international spending to 50K and/or a ban on post season play for Houston as long as Crane owns the team should do the trick. I believe all of those things lie within the discretion of the commissioner.

 

Should removal be of interest to the rest of the league that is.

Yup. In addition to Schott, McCourt was forced out in 2012 and Steinbrenner was banned from the league for several years in the 1990s. Plenty of precedent.

[jkcarew]

I agree with the premise of this article, 100%. MLB needs to move past the sign-stealing scandal and address more, and bigger, fundamental challenges for the future of the game.

 

Unfortunately, the commissioner and the Astros players are standing in the way of moving on. Nothing is going to change or happen beyond what's already taken place...but just when it seems we start to move on, an Astro's player or the commissioner do/say something stupid, and we start all over again. Yuk.

[jkcarew]

 

As to Astros and the league, the league has purchased teams in the past, and could do so now, taking control of the Astros on a reduced price or kick them out of the league. If MLB wanted to, it could retract them, like the Expos.

For my part, I would be very much apposed to taking the franchise from the fan-base because of something the players and/or FO did. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

This is the equivalent of SKOR North wanting to remove Zulgad from ownership of his car, because he has too many parking tickets.

 

It ain't North Korea. The Astros are Jim Crane's property.

Tell that to Donald Sterling.

[FormerMinnasotan]

This is the equivalent of SKOR North wanting to remove Zulgad from ownership of his car, because he has too many parking tickets.

 

It ain't North Korea. The Astros are Jim Crane's property.

Tell that to the late Marge Schott. As I recall she was forced to give up ownership of the Cincinnati Reds. If Schott can be removed as owner of an MLB team so can Crane.

[Number3]

2017

Home  48 - 33- 
Road  53  -28 

2018

Home  46 - 35 
Road  57 - 24 

 

Above are home and road splits for the Astros in 2017 and 2018. Notice anything unusual? They must have had 2 trash cans for the away games.

 

Also, 2017 record was identical to Twins 2019 record. Twins set MLB home run record in 2019. Just an observation.

[nicksaviking]

 

2017

Home  48 - 33- 
Road  53  -28 

2018

Home  46 - 35 
Road  57 - 24 

 

Above are home and road splits for the Astros in 2017 and 2018. Notice anything unusual? They must have had 2 trash cans for the away games.

 

Also, 2017 record was identical to Twins 2019 record. Twins set MLB home run record in 2019. Just an observation.

 

They admitted to the cheating.

 

So are you suggesting the cheating was OK if it was ineffective?

[Squirrel]

 

They admitted to the cheating.

 

So are you suggesting the cheating was OK if it was ineffective?

They also admitted to doing it on the road, too, so the splits are really meaningless.

[Number3]

 

They admitted to the cheating.

 

So are you suggesting the cheating was OK if it was ineffective?

I "honestly" believe that this is much ado about nothing. Execution is the key to winning and most times brain clutter and distractions are not good in the heat of battle. Listening for banging on trash cans and thinking you know the sign but not being absolutely sure probably did as much harm as good. Its definitely an embarrassment but probably had no impact on wins and losses.

[Squirrel]

I "honestly" believe that this is much ado about nothing. Execution is the key to winning and most times brain clutter and distractions are not good in the heat of battle. Listening for banging on trash cans and thinking you know the sign but not being absolutely sure probably did as much harm as good. Its definitely an embarrassment but probably had no impact on wins and losses.

Well, we can never know what impact it had. And you can never know that it didn’t impact the outcome. But many major leaguers have come out and said knowing what pitch is coming is a HUGE advantage. They cheated. It wasn’t a clean win. Their championship will forever be tainted.

[Mr. Brooks]

I "honestly" believe that this is much ado about nothing. Execution is the key to winning and most times brain clutter and distractions are not good in the heat of battle. Listening for banging on trash cans and thinking you know the sign but not being absolutely sure probably did as much harm as good. Its definitely an embarrassment but probably had no impact on wins and losses.

If it had no impact, they wouldn't do it.

[Number3]

wombat posted

".....The Astro's scandal is what prompted me to write this, because I truly do believe the PGA and MLB are the only two major sports that are even remotely close to pure skill, talent, and honesty."

 

I posed a golf analogy earlier, maybe in another thread, challenging anyone who is aghast at the Astros swearing that they have never rolled a ball in the rough during a weekend golf outing. No response.

The fact is that pro golfers have more pre shot information than a baseball player could dream about. Imagine a ball player being told where a ball was going to be hit before the pitch was thrown. Again, it boils down to execution, not pre shot/pitch knowledge. The sign stealing debacle was probably not anything the players dreamed up. More than likely an analytics geek trying to impress management.

[Mr. Brooks]

wombat posted

".....The Astro's scandal is what prompted me to write this, because I truly do believe the PGA and MLB are the only two major sports that are even remotely close to pure skill, talent, and honesty."

 

I posed a golf analogy earlier, maybe in another thread, challenging anyone who is aghast at the Astros swearing that they have never rolled a ball in the rough during a weekend golf outing. No response.

The fact is that pro golfers have more pre shot information than a baseball player could dream about. Imagine a ball player being told where a ball was going to be hit before the pitch was thrown. Again, it boils down to execution, not pre shot/pitch knowledge. The sign stealing debacle was probably not anything the players dreamed up. More than likely an analytics geek trying to impress management.

That's because it's a pretty far out there comparison.

 

Using a toe wedge in a meaningless golf game against your buddies isn't even in the same universe as systematic organization wide cheating by professionals, in a billion dollar industry, that is wagered on by millions of people.

And 40,000 people have paid money and taken hours out of their lives to attend a sporting event that is advertised as being fair.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

wombat posted

".....The Astro's scandal is what prompted me to write this, because I truly do believe the PGA and MLB are the only two major sports that are even remotely close to pure skill, talent, and honesty."

 

I posed a golf analogy earlier, maybe in another thread, challenging anyone who is aghast at the Astros swearing that they have never rolled a ball in the rough during a weekend golf outing. No response.

The fact is that pro golfers have more pre shot information than a baseball player could dream about. Imagine a ball player being told where a ball was going to be hit before the pitch was thrown. Again, it boils down to execution, not pre shot/pitch knowledge. The sign stealing debacle was probably not anything the players dreamed up. More than likely an analytics geek trying to impress management.

Sorry, I'm going to take the best baseball player in the world's opinion over yours on the subject of cheating.

 

If Mike Trout, a man who rarely speaks up about much of anything and quietly goes about being the best baseball player to ever walk the planet, blasts the Astros for cheating and says it gave them an advantage, I believe him.

[twinsnorth49]

I "honestly" believe that this is much ado about nothing. Execution is the key to winning and most times brain clutter and distractions are not good in the heat of battle. Listening for banging on trash cans and thinking you know the sign but not being absolutely sure probably did as much harm as good. Its definitely an embarrassment but probably had no impact on wins and losses.

Much ado about nothing?

 

You’re kidding, right?

 

I mean you have to be.

 

AJ Hinch

Alex Cora and Carlos Beltran probably don’t think it’s much ado about nothing.

[old nurse]

Thought I was on Yahoo sports there for a moment

[Number3]

As far as the Mike Trout comment goes, this is baseball's version of the me too movement. They play in the same division so of course he and the Angels are "angels"  and the Astros are a bunch of bums. Its an image thing. It seems that the MLB brass is more in agreement with me than with those who think the whole Astros team should be banned from baseball. They got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, so what?

No one can prove they won a single game because of it and in spite of immunity granted no player has stated that it led to a single victory. Many say that Bobby Thompson knew the pitch that Ralph Branca threw before the shot heard around the world.

( I admit that I have been a devils advocate in this and I apologize for that. No more. Go Twins!)

[jkcarew]

 

As far as the Mike Trout comment goes, this is baseball's version of the me too movement. They play in the same division so of course he and the Angels are "angels"  and the Astros are a bunch of bums. Its an image thing. It seems that the MLB brass is more in agreement with me than with those who think the whole Astros team should be banned from baseball. They got caught with their hand in the cookie jar, so what?

No one can prove they won a single game because of it and in spite of immunity granted no player has stated that it led to a single victory. Many say that Bobby Thompson knew the pitch that Ralph Branca threw before the shot heard around the world.

( I admit that I have been a devils advocate in this and I apologize for that. No more. Go Twins!)

Nothing wrong with being a devil's advocate, IMO...and, at least in my mind, especially when done with civility and when relevant to the topic at hand.

 

And, in my experience, even devil's advocates are seldom completely alone on their islands here at TD.