Front Page: Dyson Drama: The Case of the Mystery Injury

[Thegrin]

I looked him up on MiLB and he does have interesting stats.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Baseball reference Game logs. Mid May he had 3 straight appearances with 0 swinging strikes, and on each side of those 3 games had a game with 12 pitches and 1 swinging strike.

 

55 pitches in Mid June with 2 swinging strikes. Again, this really wasn't that huge of anomaly. He wasn't struggling through appearances. He threw 42 effective pitches across 4 outings 

Thanks for the tip! You know, I look at those game logs all the time, and never really noticed the "StS" column.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=dysonsa01&t=p&year=2019

 

If I were you, I'd lead your point with these specific examples, rather than immediately jumping to the absurd/troll accusations. Nick may be incorrect in this instance, but he deserves an opportunity to change his mind before getting berated!

[alarp33]

 

Thanks for the tip! You know, I look at those game logs all the time, and never really noticed the "StS" column.

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=dysonsa01&t=p&year=2019

 

If I were you, I'd lead your point with these specific examples, rather than immediately jumping to the absurd/troll accusations. Nick may be incorrect in this instance, but he deserves an opportunity to change his mind before getting berated!

 

Probably a good point and I was too harsh. I don't like the insinuation the front office didn't do their jobs, when using cherry picked examples. If someone in the front office deserves being called out I'm all for it, but the evidence here is flimsy at very best

[Nick Nelson]

 

Probably a good point and I was too harsh. I don't like the insinuation the front office didn't do their jobs, when using cherry picked examples. If someone in the front office deserves being called out I'm all for it, but the evidence here is flimsy at very best

Maybe there was nothing to see. These were literally the last four appearances before they traded for him so, again, the heightened relevance seems self-evident to me. I didn't "cherry-pick" four appearances from mid-May.

 

The swinging strikes are a piece of the puzzle that caught my attention — granted, with the benefit of hindsight, having watched him get shelled while fooling nobody in his first two appearances for MN.

 

What we know (now) is that Dyson was pitching through an arm issue, which worsened as soon as he got here leading to an implosion and a very poorly timed IL stint. Were there indicators in his recent performance that could've been seen? Reduced movement on his pitches? Small lapses in command? I don't know, but then again I don't have the full resources of a sophisticated analytical operation.

 

I think it's quite a stretch to equate me saying I find it hard to let Falvey & Levine "off the hook entirely" with saying they "didn't do their jobs." Anyone who reads my writing here regularly knows I have an extremely favorable view of this front office, which is why the whole situation hits me in such a weird way. I thought it was made clear I hold Dyson most accountable. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

What we know (now) is that Dyson was pitching through an arm issue, which worsened as soon as he got here leading to an implosion and a very poorly timed IL stint.

I think we have to take Dyson's word with a grain of salt too. Players aren't really unbiased reporters of such things, especially if they need to explain a poor performance. I'm pretty sure he experienced something recently with his arm, but I don't really know how it compares to other instances in his career, etc.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I don't know how I missed this quote before:

 

https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/05/sam-dyson-speaks-out-about-struggles-since-joining-twins-at-trade-deadline/

 

 

“You could feel it when you were picking a plate up in the kitchen or putting your (expletive) clothes on,” Dyson said. “It wasn’t the best.”

 

Were they special clothes for performing an "(expletive)" task? Or clothes he really doesn't like? Maybe he doesn't like any clothes -- maybe he should come off the IL and try pitching shirtless.

[Vanimal46]

I think we have to take Dyson's word with a grain of salt too. Players aren't really unbiased reporters of such things, especially if they need to explain a poor performance. I'm pretty sure he experienced something recently with his arm, but I don't really know how it compares to other instances in his career, etc.

If I start snap hooking my driver on the golf course, you best believe I'm going to blame my back acting up that day!

[yarnivek1972]

I don't know how I missed this quote before:

 

https://www.twincities.com/2019/08/05/sam-dyson-speaks-out-about-struggles-since-joining-twins-at-trade-deadline/

 

 

Were they special clothes for performing an "(expletive)" task? Or clothes he really doesn't like? Maybe he doesn't like any clothes -- maybe he should come off the IL and try pitching shirtless.

I typically perform (expletive) duties without clothes. But that’s me.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I typically perform (expletive) duties without clothes. But that’s me.

Maybe Dyson is a "Never Nude"?

[Nick Nelson]

Twins fans watching their prized deadline acquisition:

 

[twinbythebay]

 

Maybe Dyson is a "Never Nude"?

 

There are dozens of us!!

[Mr. Brooks]

I considered that as last- minute ... maybe not as last-minute as Dyson, but it's last-minute when the need for BP arms wasn't addressed in the off-season, imo. We all knew it was a weakness going into ST. But then, maybe we were counting on some things to happen that didn't. Still ... it was not only a weakness, it was a glaring weakness. Addressing it in late July, when 2 minutes before the deadline or 2 days before ... is last-minute shopping when we knew it needed to happen back in November.

 

All 'imo', of course. But that's how I feel about it.

But most of the big name relievers signed in the offseason haven't been good.

So they still would have needed help at the deadline.

[Mr. Brooks]

Encarnacion was a salary dump.

Nevertheless, New York knew they wanted him and they got him. Now he doesn't play for another team that can hurt them.

 

Nobody is trading an impact pitcher in April or May.

Perhaps. But others have noted there was also the off season, and nobody was blind to shortcomings in the roster. In any case, Stroman came much cheaper because the Mets grabbed him before any other major pitching trades, and that action changed the market behavior of other buyers and sellers.

The Yankees got him because their ownership will allow them to grab mediocre salary dumps.

A player like Encarnacion is available that far in advance only because he's a salary dump.

 

Name the relief pitchers you asked for in the offseason, odds are they haven't been good.

[Squirrel]

 

But most of the big name relievers signed in the offseason haven't been good.
So they still would have needed help at the deadline.

That may be how it worked out this time, but I would have been a lot less forgiving of doing last-minute shopping in that case.

[Mr. Brooks]

That may be how it worked out this time, but I would have been a lot less forgiving of doing last-minute shopping in that case.

Ok, let's play this out to it's possible conclusion.

 

If they'd signed two guys in the offseason that ended up being terrible, then stood pat at the deadline, with the given explanation being, "we did our shopping in the offseason, we don't do last minute shopping", you're reaction would be?

 

If we want to critique their offseason moves, that's of course fair. But, it's independent of their moves at the deadline. Moves in the offseason are no guarantee that further moves won't be required at the deadline.

 

Decision making is a moving target. Let's judge their deadline moves with the information and the resources they had at the deadline, not the ones they had 8 months ago.

[alarp33]

 

Maybe there was nothing to see. These were literally the last four appearances before they traded for him so, again, the heightened relevance seems self-evident to me. I didn't "cherry-pick" four appearances from mid-May.

 

The swinging strikes are a piece of the puzzle that caught my attention — granted, with the benefit of hindsight, having watched him get shelled while fooling nobody in his first two appearances for MN.

 

What we know (now) is that Dyson was pitching through an arm issue, which worsened as soon as he got here leading to an implosion and a very poorly timed IL stint. Were there indicators in his recent performance that could've been seen? Reduced movement on his pitches? Small lapses in command? I don't know, but then again I don't have the full resources of a sophisticated analytical operation.

 

I think it's quite a stretch to equate me saying I find it hard to let Falvey & Levine "off the hook entirely" with saying they "didn't do their jobs." Anyone who reads my writing here regularly knows I have an extremely favorable view of this front office, which is why the whole situation hits me in such a weird way. I thought it was made clear I hold Dyson most accountable. 

 

Again, he threw 42 pitches over 4 appearances where his velo was fine, and his performance was dominant. There was nothing to see there, but the insinuation in the article I had an issue with was that this was some glaring issue. "He's broken, he was starting to break before he got here" "One of the clearest indicators something is wrong" "stop missing bats in such a stark fashion". 

 

This wasn't a large handful of 20+ pitch outings where he struggled to put guys away or get guys out. Nothing of the sorts. He threw extremely efficient innings 4 straight outings. 

[Squirrel]

 

Ok, let's play this out to it's possible conclusion.

If they'd signed two guys in the offseason that ended up being terrible, then stood pat at the deadline, with the given explanation being, "we did our shopping in the offseason, we don't do last minute shopping", you're reaction would be?

If we want to critique their offseason moves, that's of course fair. But, it's independent of their moves at the deadline. Moves in the offseason are no guarantee that further moves won't be required at the deadline.

Decision making is a moving target. Let's judge their deadline moves with the information and the resources they had at the deadline, not the ones they had 8 months ago.

I can't answer that because it's not what happened. You are asking me to play an ''iffing and hindsighting' game. But okay ... let's do that ... if the FO had addressed their weakness in the offseason, the best pitchers available then would be doing better on our team because our pitching coaches would have done better with them and our offense would have backed them up, so we wouldn't have had to do last-minute shopping now. See how that works?

[Mr. Brooks]

I can't answer that because it's not what happened. You are asking me to play an ''iffing and hindsighting' game. But okay ... let's do that ... if the FO had addressed their weakness in the offseason, the best pitchers available then would be doing better on our team because our pitching coaches would have done better with them and our offense would have backed them up, so we wouldn't have had to do last-minute shopping now. See how that works?

Wait, didn't this start with you and Chief playing the "if" and "hindsight" game? (If they'd signed free agents in the offseason, and if they'd worked out.)

Edited August 8, 2019 by Mr. Brooks

[Brandon Warne]

 

He says it began the 2nd series after the break, he allowed 2 hits in 7 shutout innings in that time before the trade. I can see where he would think he could continue to pitch through it. I bet he wasn't wincing after each pitch, I don't think its uncommon for pitchers to pitch through a little soreness throughout the season.

 

He should have told someone earlier (especially as he is going thru our medical exams to trade for him!) but its likely he didn't view this at the time as "I'm injured" more of I'm a little sore but still capable of pitching.

 

At least he did mention it instead of insisting that he was fine. I would have been mad if he pulled a Brian Dozier on us when he declared after the season that his knee was bothering him for the entire season.

 

This is exactly what has been reported. 

[jorgenswest]

Hopefully they don’t compound the problem by taking him to arbitration and then dealing with his decline and likely injuries next year.

 

They need to seek a better solution and I fear they won’t if they go the arbitration with him.

[stringer bell]

In discussing Dyson's stats this year, and particularly with the Twins, the sample is really small. I presume that by July just about every pitcher's arm hurts after an outing. The key is knowing if you can work through it or you need time off or treatment. It wouldn't surprise me if Dyson has experienced arm and shoulder pain before but got through it. 

 

I don't condemn the Twins for making a trade on the deadline, a large majority of deals were done in just that way. 

 

Finally, if Dyson returns healthy and effective, his two outings and stint on the Injured List will be a footnote. If he either doesn't get healthy or continues to struggle, that will be another story.

[Mr. Brooks]

Are we really suggesting that he didn't know he was injured, despite struggling to put his (expletive) clothes on?

That's not normal soreness.

[Blake]

 

I don’t think that’s the right lesson, or rather not specific enough. I’d say the lesson is, don’t wait until the trade deadline to actually build a bullpen, but rather use it to add that one special piece.

Let me toss this out there: The FO knew they needed to find some help for the bullpen, but, due to the lack of success of the team in prior years, coupled with a new FO, it was difficult to attract premium arms. As an example, look how the FO put together the starting rotation this year, with Pineda and Perez. 

 

The team turned out to be very successful and did a lot more than just take a step forward, it took a leap forward. The FO made a couple of good deals to get what they thought would be good solid additions to the bullpen.

 

So far, Romo looks really good, but, unfortunately, Dyson looks equally bad.

 

This is an atypical team in a very atypical year.

 

It will be interesting to see how things play out.

 

It's been a fun season and a wild ride, none of which was expected, by anyone, this year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Are we really suggesting that he didn't know he was injured, despite struggling to put his (expletive) clothes on?

That's not normal soreness.

For an MLB pitcher, do we really know? He didn't say he struggled to put his clothes on, like he couldn't do it, just that he felt it while doing so. I imagine that, for a professional pitcher, the morning after pitching, stretching the pitching arm to put on a shirt might feel a little different than a normal day for you or me.

 

I'd say I would trust his judgment, but athletes aren't unbiased. They are human and may not be able to subjectively gauge the effects of different things on their performance, whether it be injuries or centerfield trees.

Edited August 9, 2019 by spycake

[Mr. Brooks]

For an MLB pitcher, do we really know? He didn't say he struggled to put his clothes on, like he couldn't do it, just that he felt it while doing so. I imagine that, for a professional pitcher, the morning after pitching, stretching the pitching arm to put on a shirt might feel a little different than a normal day for you or me.

 

I'd say I would trust his judgment, but athletes aren't unbiased. They are human and may not be able to subjectively gauge the effects of different things on their performance, whether it be injuries or centerfield trees.

If it was the normal soreness that he typically feels the day after pitching, it wouldn't have been noteworthy enough in his mind to bring it up in the context that he mentioned it.

 

He was able to pinpoint the exact series when it began to feel different.

By definition, if it felt different, then it wasn't just normal soreness.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Mr. Brooks

[D.C Twins]

I just wanted to toss out an additional theory for why he was struggling to put his cloths on:

 

His wife bought him a pair of skinny jeans to be more hip and they were hard to put on because he had gained a few....

 

 

[Channing1964]

Ok, let's play this out to it's possible conclusion.

If they'd signed two guys in the offseason that ended up being terrible, then stood pat at the deadline, with the given explanation being, "we did our shopping in the offseason, we don't do last minute shopping", you're reaction would be?

If we want to critique their offseason moves, that's of course fair. But, it's independent of their moves at the deadline. Moves in the offseason are no guarantee that further moves won't be required at the deadline.

Decision making is a moving target. Let's judge their deadline moves with the information and the resources they had at the deadline, not the ones they had 8 months ago.

How about I just judge ALL of their decisions and just say they should be escorted back to the airport and sent back to Cleveland and Dallas respectively.

[AlwaysinModeration]

His wife bought him a pair of skinny jeans

There are all sorts of problems with this theory, I can’t even begin to enumerate them all.