Indians tanking but will still win the division?

[Otto von Ballpark]

That's why it would not shock me if Cleveland is considering strategies that attempt to legitimately get them to a Bos/Hou/NY level...even if some of those potential strategies present short-term risks...like losing the 2019 central division crown.

I think this is definitely happening, to some extent. While I pick on Cleveland for not signing Bradley and leaving a hole (or two, or three) in their outfield, they might view that as a "win the division -- and nothing more" type move.

 

With relatively limited resources, they may figure they need to conserve them to better deploy midseason (i.e. Miller, Hand, etc.). To some degree, the Twins could be doing that too if we leave some payroll room -- but of course, we're doing it to chase Cleveland right now rather than Boston, NY, and Houston.

[cardsfan]

What's it like going into a season in which you have no chance of finishing .500 let alone winning the pennant? It has been 24 years here. I do remember the 70's when I looked forward to next year in August. You grasped at the new prospects, wanted a new manager, compared your team to other losing teams. It does feel bad when you lose the last game of a postseason as well. You get to the Postseason like the Dodgers and lose the last 7 years and not win a WS since 1988.

 

Well, spring training is here. The poor Cleveland Indians haven't won since 1948. They are in the worst division in MLB since divisional play went to 3 divisions. I root for this division every time they play the Red Sox and Yankees. Start of a new season.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

What's it like going into a season in which you have no chance of finishing .500 let alone winning the pennant? It has been 24 years here. I do remember the 70's when I looked forward to next year in August. You grasped at the new prospects, wanted a new manager, compared your team to other losing teams. It does feel bad when you lose the last game of a postseason as well. You get to the Postseason like the Dodgers and lose the last 7 years and not win a WS since 1988.

 

Well, spring training is here. The poor Cleveland Indians haven't won since 1948. They are in the worst division in MLB since divisional play went to 3 divisions. I root for this division every time they play the Red Sox and Yankees. Start of a new season.

the last 8 years have sucked badly, but this year will be different! Just like last year was supposed to be different!

 

 

But truthfully, this mess is nothing like the mid nineties until early aughts. It was dark days as a Twins fan when your owner is openly campaigning for retraction.

[ashbury]

What's it like going into a season in which you have no chance of finishing .500 let alone winning the pennant?

Probably should go find an Orioles fan site, if you are talking about 2019 and want to find out. You can find a sip here or other places, but that would be the well you can drink deeply from.

[cardsfan]

Probably should go find an Orioles fan site, if you are talking about 2019 and want to find out. You can find a sip here or other places, but that would be the well you can drink deeply from.

The O's have one of the worst owners in baseball. I only remember a few 90 loss seasons. When Gussie Busch's son took control he was complaining players where making more than him in the early 90's.

 

I couldn't handle losing 100 games 3 years in a row like the Astros.

[Channing1964]

Ok, I will readily admit I am a DIE HARD Twin Fan but I spend a lotta time being just a baseball fan as well. If I am joe Indian fan I would be mad as H€LL. I guess Perez is the catcher to replace Gomes....the one that couldn't beat Gomes out all these years. I am no Michael Brantley fan and I bet he poisons the Astro's Clubhouse same like he has Cleveland's all this time. But they just let him go and now they hope to replace him with some combination of Leonis Martin, Bradley Zimmer, Greg Allen, Matt Joyce, Jake Bauers(a 1st baseman) and Hanley Ramirez? Good Luck with all that. Francona should have been playing some of those guys instead of running Melky Cabrera, Raj Davis, Austin Jackson, and Brandon Guyer out there so much. They lost Chisenhall, Encarnacion, Andrew Miller, Cody Allen, and Tomlin as well. IMO they are in for a big Big surprise and i cant think of a better team to give it to them than us. While we got Gonzalez they were LOSING Lindor for the first month of the season. Ima enjoy watching them fall while Francona smiles for the cameras. I would put their starting pitching on a high plateau but after that they in trouble. They better pitch complete games like the 81 Oakland A's.

[Platoon]

Winning a WC spot is fine, winning the division is likely better. But what is really great in such a long season is seeing a team play truly competitive baseball against all teams and divisions. Not just winning a low in talent division such as the current Central. Seeing a team play heads up, fundamental, well managed and inspired ball al year is in itself enjoyable. After that you see where you ended up in the standings and move on. Strategizing to simply win a crappy division is a direct road to mediocrity and a well deserved exit from the playoffs, if you are even lucky enough to get there. The Twins of yore could educate the Indians on that tactic!

[SomeGuy]

Indians probably have the best rotation in MLB, two MVP candidates in Jose Ramirez and Francisco Lindor, and one of the best active managers in baseball.  I think they will be fine.

 

Wouldn't call it tanking.  That term is thrown around way too much.  They should be expecting to win 90+ games again.  They are still a legitimate team.

[Channing1964]

Indians probably have the best rotation in MLB, two MVP candidates in Jose Ramirez and Francisco Lindor, and one of the best active managers in baseball. I think they will be fine.

 

Wouldn't call it tanking. That term is thrown around way too much. They should be expecting to win 90+ games again. They are still a legitimate team.

i get it that everyone respects Francona sooo much. But really, what has he done since his last ring? The same people that wanna beat down Gardenhire are praising Francona as a bold and genius manager? Please. He, imo is an ultimate yessss man and brown noser that hasn't won anything since 2004. Anybody that covers their behind that long has to be talented and all but When he gets exposed this year its gonna be wicked hard ugly.

[SomeGuy]

 

i get it that everyone respects Francona sooo much. But really, what has he done since his last ring? The same people that wanna beat down Gardenhire are praising Francona as a bold and genius manager? Please. He, imo is an ultimate yessss man and brown noser that hasn't won anything since 2004. Anybody that covers their behind that long has to be talented and all but When he gets exposed this year its gonna be wicked hard ugly.

I love Gardenhire but Francona is light years ahead of Gardy.

 

He instantly made the Indians a competitor.  68 wins the year before Francona, 92 wins with Francona. They have been a competitor ever since he took over in 2013.  He also won MOY twice since then.

 

Francona hasn't had a losing season since 2000.  Continuing that this season is about the safest bet you can make.  How will he be exposed this year?

 

BTW he did win another World Series after 2004.  You say he hasn't won anything since 2004.

[lukeduke1980]

Lindor's injury will affect how they start out - it's a pretty shallow lineup without him.  If they can stay around .500 for when he comes back I expect they'll go on a run.  

[SomeGuy]

 

Lindor's injury will affect how they start out - it's a pretty shallow lineup without him.  If they can stay around .500 for when he comes back I expect they'll go on a run.  

It shouldn't be too long that he is out.  He is playing in the minor league "B" games already.  Opening day hasn't been ruled out yet.  Sounds like he is on track to only miss the first week or so if any time at all.

[KirbyDome89]

 

The Twins are kind of in that boat too, though you have to admit that pretty much everything went wrong with them last year. They've turned around and replaced Morrison and Mauer with some pretty clear upgrades. Schoop's floor is likely Dozier last year. The only real losses are a half season of Pressley and Escobar. It won't take much in terms of stepping forward for the Twins to be considerably better than the 78 wins they posted. 

 

I guess that's why I'm skeptical of a team that won 91 games last year suddenly upping their game while being weaker overall. The Indians should be good, but I suspect that they will be in for some tough competition this year. 

We saw Schoop's floor in Milwaukee and it was ugly. The Twins are taking a gamble with Cron that's similar to what they did with Morrison, so I'd hesitate to call him a clear upgrade as well. I agree that this team can and should probably be better than 78 wins, but I think we're holding MN and Cleveland to two separate standards when passing judgement. Does everything that broke right for the Twins last season continue? Is Berrios an AS again? Does Gibson turn in another career year? Does Rosario have another excellent first half? IMO it seems like we're counting on the "good," to continue while also factoring in upside being reached for the Twins; while with Cleveland the exact opposite is happening. 

[Dantes929]

 

We saw Schoop's floor in Milwaukee and it was ugly. The Twins are taking a gamble with Cron that's similar to what they did with Morrison, so I'd hesitate to call him a clear upgrade as well. I agree that this team can and should probably be better than 78 wins, but I think we're holding MN and Cleveland to two separate standards when passing judgement. Does everything that broke right for the Twins last season continue? Is Berrios an AS again? Does Gibson turn in another career year? Does Rosario have another excellent first half? IMO it seems like we're counting on the "good," to continue while also factoring in upside being reached for the Twins; while with Cleveland the exact opposite is happening. 

Baseball is great that way.    When Santana and Hunter left everyone was saying "how can you expect to get better when you lose your two best players?".   The answer is to have enough other guys play well.    Berrios, Gibson and Rosario are the three guys that played well last year but most other guys severely underperformed.      In 2016 just one guy played well and that was our utility guy.    You need about 9 or 10 guys having good solid years.   Preferably it is your stars but if Buxton, Kepler, Schoop, Polanco, Peneda, Odorizzi, May, Perez and just one of the three you named have good years it more than overcomes the other two having bad years.

[Channing1964]

You are absolutely right, I cant believe the Yankees didnt snap him up for 20 mil a year when they had a job opening.. when I use the term exposed I mean he will pay the price for playing Melky Cabrera, Brandon Guyer, Lonnie Chisenhall, Raj Davis, Austin Jackson etc blah blah blah need i say more. All their young "talented" outfielders have scarce mlb service time because of Francona's seeemingly overwhelming desire to cover his royal ass.

[Channing1964]

What a waste of excellent starting pitching. Id take Gardenhire in the 2000's over Francona any era. The bottom line is in my opinion this is the year they fail to play extra games. But then again with his track record I am sure we can justify it's ownership's fault not his. Lmao.

[Channing1964]

You can crown him as the greatest manager ever if you'd like to, its a free country. And lets have this convo after this season because nobody is gonna hand him anything this year. (except an elite rotation)

[Doomtints]

The Twins had a LOT of player churn in the 00s and I don't remember anyone accusing them of tanking.

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

What a waste of excellent starting pitching. Id take Gardenhire in the 2000's over Francona any era. The bottom line is in my opinion this is the year they fail to play extra games. But then again with his track record I am sure we can justify it's ownership's fault not his. Lmao.

Francona has more World Series wins than Gardenhire does postseason series wins.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Francona has more World Series wins than Gardenhire does postseason series wins.

Francona also has more postseason *series* wins (9) than Gardenhire has postseason *game* wins (6).

 

Gardy does have more ejections, though (and in fewer games), 75-42.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Francona also has more postseason *series* wins (9) than Gardenhire has postseason *game* wins (6).

 

Gardy does have more ejections, though (and in fewer games), 75-42.

I thought about going on various statistics how Francona has done more X than Gardenhire has done Y but thought it'd take me about an hour to work out all the hilarity that would come with such an exercise.

 

Like, "Francona has more World Series championships than Gardenhire has ALCS game wins".

 

The list could go on for a really long time.

[Aerodeliria]

 

Tanking is the wrong word choice

 

Maybe he meant they were turning into tanks...ya'know, he works for 538, so he probably couldn't get a job at ESPN, and we know that he definitely couldn't get a job at Twins Daily. (BTW, I really wanted to 'love' this comment.)

[Channing1964]

I thought about going on various statistics how Francona has done more X than Gardenhire has done Y but thought it'd take me about an hour to work out all the hilarity that would come with such an exercise.

 

Like, "Francona has more World Series championships than Gardenhire has ALCS game wins".

 

The list could go on for a really long time.

i think you should go ahead and do that. Make sure to use your Cleveland Indians mousepad and make sure to wear your Terry Francona signed 2016 world series loser jersey while you do that.

[Channing1964]

I thought about going on various statistics how Francona has done more X than Gardenhire has done Y but thought it'd take me about an hour to work out all the hilarity that would come with such an exercise.

 

Like, "Francona has more World Series championships than Gardenhire has ALCS game wins".

 

The list could go on for a really long time.

maybe while you are there you can quote us all the statistics of the last time the Cleveland Indians won a World Series title? I am sure my grandfather wasnt alive by then so he cant tell us.

[old nurse]

 

i think you should go ahead and do that. Make sure to use your Cleveland Indians mousepad and make sure to wear your Terry Francona signed 2016 world series loser jersey while you do that.

Is it worse to get to the World Series and lose than not even get close?

[Mike Sixel]

I think CLE will regret caring more about money this year and next, than about winning. At some point, the window closes and they can gut the payroll and make tons of money......or, they can always sell and make more money than they ever imagined, if it is really all about money.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I think CLE will regret caring more about money this year and next, than about winning. At some point, the window closes and they can gut the payroll and make tons of money......or, they can always sell and make more money than they ever imagined, if it is really all about money.

100%, they can shed a ton of $$ in the next few years so unless they're working on extensions it makes zero sense to not push all in for this year and next 1-2 seasons. Unfortunately I think the Twins fall into the "regret not spending," category too. The two teams are like Minnesotans at a 4-way, each waiving the other through to take the division.

[SomeGuy]

The main loses for the Indians were Yan Gomes and Michael Brantley.  The whole Encarnacion/Alonzo/Santana/Bauers/Hanley mess should be close to a wash.  They got themselves one more year of control with Santana (3 total years) and he is 3 years younger than Encarnacion.

 

Michael Brantley has averaged 81 games per season from 2016-2018.  Its understandable that a small market team wouldn't want to match the 16M per season for such a high injury risk.  Their outfield is young and underwhelming but the depth is there with Zimmer returning at some point and both Carlos Gonzalez and Cameron Maybin at AAA.

 

Yan Gomes is a catcher so his impact is limited but its still a significant loss. They did add a young catcher that was a top 100 prospect and had a 97 wRC+ in the majors between 2017-2018.  He also had a great spring .317/.404/.610.  Yan Gomes had a 94wRC+ in the same time frame 2017-18.

 

They might not be 3rd in runs scored like last season but I don't think they are suddenly a terrible offense, unless Lindor and Ramirez continue to have health issues later into the season.

 

Both Cody Allen and Andrew Miller had a collective ERA of 4.54 last season so I'm not considering that much of a loss other than the rebound potential their new teams are now hoping for.

[SomeGuy]

 

 

i think you should go ahead and do that. Make sure to use your Cleveland Indians mousepad and make sure to wear your Terry Francona signed 2016 world series loser jersey while you do that.

I don't think recognizing what is clearly a future Hall of Fame manager makes anyone a Cleveland homer.

[Pardon My Dinger]

Sorry. How is this considered tanking?