Property of Twins

[DaveW]

So if Dick can call a black man property, can I call you guys honkeys?

 

I believe you already do?

 

Exactly, there's no harmful intent behind it, it's just a dumb comment like what Dick said. Like a bunch of dumb white kids who listen to rap and call each other "my n****a"

 

If youre going to excuse Dick for a harmless comment then I thinks it's ok.

 

We should make you the moderator for TD race relations threads

[LimestoneBaggy]

So is saying "under team control" any different (see also every sportswriter/blogger)? Dick is really being taken out of context, and I agree with the vast majority here (not that majority). As for being called a honkey...well that's just hilarious, but I prefer....Role Models:

 

Ronnie Shields: Suck it, "Reindeer Games"!

Danny: I'm not Ben Affleck.

Ronnie Shields: You white, then you Ben Affleck.

Wheeler: You *are* white.

Danny: That's true, I am white.

[LimestoneBaggy]

http://c-product.images.dreamsretail.com/63-14/63-14248-Y.jpgProbably should get MLB on the phone too.

[DaveW]

Reindeer games was awesome, Charlize Theron topless FTMFW!

[TwinsFanLV]

The thing that ticked me off last night was that he describe a black guy as "property of" and a white guy as "member of" in the same sentence.

 

Is he a "racist"? I don't want to think so, but I still believe that these terms are unfortunate and his word choice to describe the 2 former Twins also unfortunate. Yes I might be sensitive on the subject. As far as whether someone is a "property" of a team (metaphorically), I think that actually a player has more power than the team as far as a working relationship goes. Yes his contract can be sold to another team but he will be making the same money. The team cannot fire him without paying him the rest of the what he is owed, but he can quit anytime (retire...)

 

Just an unfortunate wording.

 

About the property of... shirts (and scrubs in hospitals btw.) It is the shirt that it property of, not the wearer In the Old days practice shirts were property of athletic departments and they had to stay there after games etc. Nobody could have then (thus a forbidden fruit that started that craze in the 70s and 80s...) and then colleges sold them at their bookstores.

 

I might have over reacted but it was the use of different word for teammates of different race that did it. I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

 

As far as the tone of the commentary on the other thread, if someone decides to not argue on the topic but on the poster, I tune them out

 

If your assessment of Dick Bremer was as enlightened as your comments of the geography and status of AAA baseball in Las Vegas, nobody is suffering from the loss of your deleted comments. It would be okay for you to think through your ideas and make an effort to be vaguely accurate.

[DPJ]

We should make you the moderator for TD race relations threads

 

It would get some more traffic around here, plus there would be an uptick in that key 20-30 year old black males that I know Twins Daily so deperatly yearns for.

[DaveW]

We should make you the moderator for TD race relations threads

 

It would get some more traffic around here, plus there would be an uptick in that key 20-30 year old black males that I know Twins Daily so deperatly yearns for.

 

Good point, plus FUBU (is that still around?) would finally start running ads on the site.

[diehardtwinsfan]

how in the world has this made it to almost 3 pages?

[jimbo92107]

I believe that players are Property of their clubs until they have achieved enough service time to become free agents. Up until that time, the club owns their rights and it is their choice whether or not the players are a part of the team.

 

My problem with Thrylos's interpretation of Dick Bremer's off-hand comment was that Thrylos seemed to think it was insulting on a racial level. Actually, the idea of calling a contractee "property" is generally insulting to everybody that signs a contract. If you contract the neighbor's kid to mow your lawn over the summer, is the kid your "property?" Don't tell his parents that.

 

Same with professional sports. A contract with the Minnesota Twins does not make Delmon Young the team's "property." It's a contract to play baseball for that specific team, for money. If Delmon decides to quit baseball, he is free to do that, but of course that voids his contract and he won't get any more money from the Twins. Freedom to quit is what distinguishes literal "property" from contractee. Did Thrylos really think Dick Bremer was referring to Delmon Young as a former slave of the Minnesota Twins? That's pretty silly.

[Riverbrian]

If you combed thru all of the tapes of Bremer's Career... I would bet large sums of money that he has used the word "property" before and I will bet that it was used for White Folks in the past. When you broadcast as many games as he has for as long as he has. You don't just start using fresh adjectives. You have the same crutches and words to describe situations.

 

Again, try to fill a baseball broadcast with words for 3 hours and then do it again tomorrow, all the way to next month, next year and next decade. If anyone feels that property is worthy of this... It's a clear overreacation. Try it... After you try talking through a baseball game one time... Try to imagine doing it daily.

 

We can't seriously be hung up one word that can be explained multiple ways. This reacation is clearly a case of a reacation by the beholder and not the commenter.

[drivlikejehu]

Well, actually, the remains of the reserve system do make a player's labor the property of the team for six years (though 3 or 4 of the years are subject to arbitration). Of course, no one technically has to play Major League Baseball, but realistically it will be the best option for almost any player (maybe in a handful of AAAA cases Japan would be better). So, to the extent most players are concerned, MLB has an effective monopoly on pro baseball and dramatically limits the labor freedom of the players.

 

For those subject to the draft, they really can't choose what team to play for. Then, the hurdle to reach free agency (other than stinking and getting cut) is extremely high- 6 years. The average career is what, less than 2 years? And once a player is on a 40-man roster, even getting cut often doesn't lead to free agency, because the team first waives the player, who can then be picked up by another club (again the player has zero say over any of this).

 

So, putting aside the fact it's literally insane to say Bremer was being racist, and in fact only reveals something about the person making the insane accusation, the term "property" is actually pretty appropriate for the team-player relationship in most cases.

[old nurse]

If one wants to start arguments, thryloss would be better off dissecting when Andre Martinez will join the starting rotation of the Twins. The only good that comes from this thread is Rocketpig's imagery of what may have been happening on a NYC street.

BTW, they could have been eating Frankenberry and that is what set Delmon off.

[ShaeTwins]

I didn't even notice it; does this make me a racist? What a joke. People need to stop getting so worked up over every little thing.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

That's an interesting tid-bit about the "Property of ____" t-shirts. I didn't know that Athletic Departments had loaner shirts.

[bird]

Geez, I wish you people would stop picking on thrylos just because of the absurd and ignorant things he says.

[Ultima Ratio]

I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.

 

 

If any post deserves being taken down and poster being banned (which I don't support BTW), this seems to reach that threshold.

 

Got any support for these claims on passive racisim? Do you study Critical Race Theory or are you just throwing stuff out there?

[twinsnorth49]

Why do all you guys keep validating this guys comments?

[twinsnorth49]

I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.

 

 

This guy too.

[snepp]

This thread is sad, the previous thread was sadder.

 

 

Can we talk about how Kevin Slowey is just like Roy Halladay instead?

[righty8383]

I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.

 

 

If any post deserves being taken down and poster being banned (which I don't support BTW), this seems to reach that threshold.

 

Got any support for these claims on passive racisim? Do you study Critical Race Theory or are you just throwing stuff out there?

 

I don't know but I bet he's in the other 10%

[snepp]

I don't know but I bet he's in the other 10%

 

The other 10% being non-closeted racists?

[Ultima Ratio]

I don't know but I bet he's in the other 10%

 

The other 10% being non-closeted racists?

This made me chuckle, thank you snepp.

[ShaeTwins]

I'm gonna say he's a racist, not KKK outwardly but a closet racist like 90% of America.

 

 

If any post deserves being taken down and poster being banned (which I don't support BTW), this seems to reach that threshold.

 

Being the naive ignorant guy that I am, and not knowing DPJ, I assumed it was good-natured sarcasm.

[Nick Nelson]

If any post deserves being taken down and poster being banned (which I don't support BTW), this seems to reach that threshold.

FYI, DPJ has been temporarily banned for repeatedly making racially insensitive comments after being asked not to do so. I really hate moderating and wish people wouldn't make me do it, but there's no place for words like "honkeys" and the N word (even if it's bleeped) on a baseball message board.

[Jeremy Nygaard]

 

Wait, what? I thought "closet" referred to teh gays. I can't keep up with you kids anymore.

 

R Kelly took it back for the black man.

 

[video=youtube;zFosUj6A22c]

 

You think it would be hard to talk for three hours of the game? Try watching/listening to the whole "Trapped in the Closet" movie. It was on TV one night (I'm not sure how many chapters it actually was...) and it was like a train wreck. I enjoy the guy's music, but holy Hannah, "Trapped in the Closet" is ridiculous.

 

(A quick google search told me he's written 32 chapters... unbelievable.)

[Twins GFP]

I might have over reacted but it was the use of different word for teammates of different race that did it. I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

 

 

Thrylos,

 

I rarely agree with your opinions, and I usually find your comments intentionally inflammatory. While I did not agree with your take on Bremer's usage of the word property during the telecast, I think that basis of your comment was worth a discussion. Is the usage of the word "property" when discussing people offensive? I think that topic is open for debate.

 

That being said, I find it incredibly hypocritical of you to take his comments as racially offensive, and then use the word "Kosher" in the manner in which you did. Were I Jewish, I could easily find this usage offensive. Regardless of your motive for using it (sarcasms, jest, or using it because it is commonly used in this manner), the fact that you have been essentially screaming racism and then do the same thing yourself takes any credibility you have and throws it out the window.

 

I am surprised that it went this long before being commented on. Probably because it is used in that manner so often people don't really feel it is offensive. Maybe not entirely appropriate, but not offensive or racially motivated. Kind of like what Dick did, eh?

[twinsnorth49]

Wow,no wonder race relations in the US are so screwed up.

[Ultima Ratio]

Wow,no wonder race relations in the US are so screwed up.

In everyday life it really isn't. Most racist charges are purely fictitious inventions, just like the charge against Bremer.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Wow,no wonder race relations in the US are so screwed up.

 

 

yeah, pretty much this.... as long as crap like this goes on, race relations will never get better. Thrylos's post is foolish at best and downright inflamatory at worst, as I highly doubt that Bremmer was being "racist" in his use of words, yet he's indirectly being accused of being precisely that. It is one's intent that determines whether or not they are racist, not a choice of words that might or might not offend someone. There are a number of people on this site who will get in a tizzy when someone mischaracterizes their statements/opinions on any matter. Add something like racisim, which adds much additional emotion and often times unnecessary accusations, and you have a powder keg.

 

 

What's worse is that often times (though from what I can tell not in this case) these accusations are levied in place of rational thought and discussion when one side finds themselves on the losing side of an argument. Fortunately, that hasn't happened here, but in politicis, it's often a nice fall back for those who do not articulate themselves well.

[jokin]

I don't even think that the guy meant it... but he needs to know that was he said is about as Kosher as what Delmon did in NYC...

 

What he said was harmless, free of ill intentions and noticed by almost nobody. Delmon Young directly accosted a man on a public street and spewed racial epithets at him. That you could even compare the two proves that your attempts to take a position as being sensitive to racial issues is a complete joke. I think you should just drop this one. Nothing good is going to come from your futile attempts to demonstrate that a passing, banal remark in a TV broadcast is somehow evidence of Dick Bremer's deep-seeded racism.

 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/images/pixel.gif

Is it deep-seeded or deep-seated? Deep-seated, according to Webster's Dictionary, means "deeply entrenched: ingrained." Deep-seeded has no dictionary entry.

 

 

 

 

From the Language Log website, an article entitled, Deep-Seeded Ignorance, at the University of Pennsylvania (http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001815.html):

 

"The established phrase is "deep-seated", which is listed in any good dictionary and has 590,000 Google hits, while "deep-seeded" is not listed in any dictionary (at least as far as I've checked), and has only 24,800 Google hits, so that the public vote is 96% for seated, 4% for seeded.

The fact that roughly 4% of the population has the wrong idea about this phrase is a perfect example of the forces that lead to the formation of eggcorns." The substitution sounds the same, and it means something plausible. Both similar sound and sensible meaning are essential -- no one is likely to make the mistake of writing "seated rolls" in place of "seeded rolls", or "deep-chaired ignorance" in place of "deep-seated ignorance". " Archie Bunker used to invent a new eggcorn just about every week on All in the Family.

 

The point from all of this is that language changes as the culture changes and the concept of humans as property has become colloquial and even offensive to many - on the way to obsolescence- on the way to ultimate demise and extinction- and more culturally-, and actually-descriptive terms evolved, just as at some point, two-word descriptive phrases such as deep-seated could likely fade into something else that becomes more commonly accepted, perhaps even something like deep-seeded.

 

The use of words contained inside these terms: NAACP, United Negro College Fund, the song, "Ten Little Indians" and La Raza (Fascist Franco coined it for propaganda purposes, the Latino Radical Left uses it today) are all deemed offensive, depending on who uses the word and in which setting, even though they were all once widespread in common usage. Compared to these now-electrically-charged words, Bremer's "offense" is a trifle of a trifle, there is no doubt that Dick Bremer is just the Halsey Hall of his generation, innocent of the charges being thrown around and it's up to the offendee to accept him as a product of his culture and language boundaries.