Romine's Grand Slam - discrepancy in pitch data

[Brock Beauchamp]

While watching yesterday's painful at-bat from Romine, it looked like he golfed that pitch out of the park.

 

I was perusing the game info today and noticed Gameday had the pitch listed here:

 

 

Okay, yeah, so that's not a golf swing. That's dead red in the wheelhouse.

 

But then look at the actual game. Here's the swing:

 

 

Okay, that meets the eye test of what I saw. Romine is swinging at a pitch well outside the zone, down and in.

 

But here's the kicker: the actual in-game Fox Trax pitch tracking put the ball here (red square to emphasize which pitch was appearing on the screen as the ball launched into orbit):

 

 

What gives? The eye test says that was a good swing on a pitch outside the zone, the in-game pitch tracker confirms it, and then the Gameday pitch tracker says the pitch was a gimme home run pitch.

 

I've relied pretty heavily on pitch trackers in the past but this is giving me pause, that maybe I shouldn't trust the information found in Gameday.

 

BTW, this is not the first time I've noticed this discrepancy; the first time was that ill-fated Mauer walk conversation from the KC series where I look at Joe's plate appearance a dozen times and the Gameday pitch tracker had the pitch a good 3-4 inches closer to the zone than the actual pitch looked on video. But I could chalk that up to both the pitch tracker being a bit off and me misreading the strike zone... though I'm pretty sure I wasn't misreading the zone to the extent of being off 3-4 inches. The ball was clearly at or just below Joe's knee and touching the black while the Gameday pitch tracker had it well inside the black and a few inches above Joe's knee.

 

In any case, I can forgive a few inches here or there but Gameday has Romine's pitch in the middle of the zone while the actual pitch was outside the zone.

[Jham]

Very interesting...

[drjim]

This shows up in pitch type tracking too. A lot more of this stuff is handcrammed than you would think.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

This shows up in pitch type tracking too. A lot more of this stuff is handcrammed than you would think.

Yeah, I know it's a problem with pitch-type tracking but that's more of a judgment call, which is hard to automate accurately. If a guy like Santiago - who throws approximately 15 different fastballs according to DickBert - takes 4mph off the fastball with one grip and 2mph off the fastball with a different grip that cuts, that's hard to automate.

 

But I always believed pitch tracking was automated; "see ball, spot ball". Sure, there may be slight discrepancies between different systems - which is why I didn't bring it up in the Mauer conversation - but the Romine grand slam isn't a discrepancy; it's flat-out wrong and misleading. Watching the game, I thought "damn you, Romine *hat tip*". Watching Gameday, I thought "**** you, Gibson *vomit*".

 

Which makes me want to ignore pitch tracking of that kind going forward. Given how I've relied on it in the past, that's disappointing.

[USAFChief]

I've long argued that basing anything on electronic pitch tracking is, at best, unproven.

 

Including, by the way, electronic balls and strikes.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I've long argued that basing anything on electronic pitch tracking is, at best, unproven.

 

Including, by the way, electronic balls and strikes.

Given the 3D nature of the in-stadium tracking, there's no reason for those systems to be inaccurate.

 

It's simply not that hard to pull data from multiple cameras and spot a ball traveling through the air.

 

Google and Facebook can build an algorithm to predict and defeat human behavior; the best Go players in the world have lost to machines built by those companies. Tesla and Google can build cars that predict and react to driving conditions with exponentially more accuracy and reliability than human beings.

 

In comparison, tracking the controlled environment of an MLB game is child's play, something a CIS student should be able to build for their thesis project.*

 

*in no way is this an advocacy for automated strike calling, something I am against, merely pointing out that the underlying tech is not terribly complicated

[USAFChief]

Oh, and by the way...thanks for putting permanent visual evidence of that &**#((# #*$((, &**#((#)), #)))#(#(# grand slam on TD so we can all relive it in perpetuity.

[nicksaviking]

Maybe Gibson should just start grooving fastballs down the middle instead of sinkers out of the zone. The Tigers batted .500 against his sinker yesterday and got nary a hit against his other three pitches:

 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/outcome.php?player=502043&b_hand=-1&gFilt=&pFilt=FA|SI|FC|CU|SL|CS|KN|CH|FS|SB&time=game&minmax=ci&var=baa&s_type=2&startDate=04/12/2017&endDate=01/01/2018

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Maybe Gibson should just start grooving fastballs down the middle instead of sinkers out of the zone. The Tigers batted .500 against his sinker yesterday and got nary a hit against his other three pitches:

 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/outcome.php?player=502043&b_hand=-1&gFilt=&pFilt=FA|SI|FC|CU|SL|CS|KN|CH|FS|SB&time=game&minmax=ci&var=baa&s_type=2&startDate=04/12/2017&endDate=01/01/2018

I was following his slider in-game and I'm wholly on board with the idea that Gibson needs to rely on it as his out pitch.

 

Sure, throw the sinker because he needs multiple pitches to give batters different looks but stop it with the idea that he's a sinkerball pitcher.

[Willihammer]

 

Maybe Gibson should just start grooving fastballs down the middle instead of sinkers out of the zone. The Tigers batted .500 against his sinker yesterday and got nary a hit against his other three pitches:

 

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/outcome.php?player=502043&b_hand=-1&gFilt=&pFilt=FA|SI|FC|CU|SL|CS|KN|CH|FS|SB&time=game&minmax=ci&var=baa&s_type=2&startDate=04/12/2017&endDate=01/01/2018

According to that link Gibson threw 20  pitches yesterday.

 

You guys watch the grand slam? Came on a slider.

[Willihammer]

I vaguely recall this coming up in prior discussions about pitch tracking. I believe it is unique to gameday, let me see if I can find a link.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You guys watch the grand slam? Came on a slider.

Sometimes hitters hit pitches they shouldn't.

 

Maybe that wasn't your argument, I'm not sure, but Romine deserves a lot of credit for that swing.

 

But there's plenty to complain about with Gibson's fourth inning overall. He put himself in that situation, one where a good swing put Detroit into a commanding lead... I think focusing on Romine's grand slam is letting the tail wag the dog.

 

If Gibson doesn't put up a clownshoe performance leading up to Romine, that (good) swing means the Twins are up 3-1 or 3-2 and all is fine and well.

[Loosey]

So basically we are long ways away from robot umpires then?  Imagine if that was called a strike if he didn't swing and was called out.  

[Blake]

 

Sometimes hitters hit pitches they shouldn't.

 

Maybe that wasn't your argument, I'm not sure, but Romine deserves a lot of credit for that swing.

 

But there's plenty to complain about with Gibson's fourth inning overall. He put himself in that situation, one where a good swing put Detroit into a commanding lead... I think focusing on Romine's grand slam is letting the tail wag the dog.

 

If Gibson doesn't put up a clownshoe performance leading up to Romine, that (good) swing means the Twins are up 3-1 or 3-2 and all is fine and well.

As I've stated elsewhere, I don't necessarily think Gibson made a bad pitch, per se. I do, however, think this goes back to pitch selection. From what I've seen, it's a fools game for pitchers to throw anything close to the strike zone down and in to a left-handed batter. I think Gibson has been told way to much or perhaps actually believes, he needs to stay down in the zone no matter what. Which, again, against left-handed batters, appears to be a bad idea. 

 

Yes, I know Gibson put himself in position to lose the game, but, that type of situation is what separates great pitchers from mediocre pitchers. Great pitchers will find a way to get out of a situation like that. If memory serves, Santana had a bases-loaded situation this year and got out of it without a run scoring. It happens and good pitchers find a way to survive. For whatever reason, Gibson just didn't get the job done.

[Mike Sixel]

A: I'm not sure what "technology" the various sites use for tracking the pitch location, but it isn't technology you'd use for automating balls and strikes. It isn't set up to do that, and they haven't invested the money to do that. Drawing conclusions about how ready we are is specious. As Brock points out, it's child's play if we really want to do it.

 

B: I really want to believe in Gibson, but it sure looks the same every year. Sometimes you are what you are.

 

C: I want automated balls and strikes, because I want the players to decide the game, based on playing by the same rules, not giving certain players more or less calls based on reputation (I literally gave up on MLB for awhile after watching Glavine get ridiculous calls for years).

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

As I've stated elsewhere, I don't necessarily think Gibson made a bad pitch, per se. I do, however, think this goes back to pitch selection. From what I've seen, it's a fools game for pitchers to throw anything close to the strike zone down and in to a left-handed batter. I think Gibson has been told way to much or perhaps actually believes, he needs to stay down in the zone no matter what. Which, again, against left-handed batters, appears to be a bad idea. 

 

Yes, I know Gibson put himself in position to lose the game, but, that type of situation is what separates great pitchers from mediocre pitchers. Great pitchers will find a way to get out of a situation like that. If memory serves, Santana had a bases-loaded situation this year and got out of it without a run scoring. It happens and good pitchers find a way to survive. For whatever reason, Gibson just didn't get the job done.

In no way do I mean to imply that was a good pitch, only that it was a hard-ish pitch to hit. Anytime you have a pitch that is both low and inside, credit should go to the hitter for making that hard of contact with the ball.

 

Read into that what you will. Basically, I guess I'm giving credit to Romine and neutral on Gibson.

[Willihammer]

 

Sometimes hitters hit pitches they shouldn't.

 

Maybe that wasn't your argument, I'm not sure, but Romine deserves a lot of credit for that swing.

 

But there's plenty to complain about with Gibson's fourth inning overall. He put himself in that situation, one where a good swing put Detroit into a commanding lead... I think focusing on Romine's grand slam is letting the tail wag the dog.

 

If Gibson doesn't put up a clownshoe performance leading up to Romine, that (good) swing means the Twins are up 3-1 or 3-2 and all is fine and well.

That's fine. I'm not saying you're wrong, just pointing out for the record that the grand slam came on the slider. I didn't see the game and that wasn't clear from your discussion or the screencap.

Also Brooks pitch classification appears to be wrong. Or not updated yet.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

A: I'm not sure what "technology" the various sites use for tracking the pitch location, but it isn't technology you'd use for automating balls and strikes.

In case I wasn't clear, I fully agree. The inaccuracy of MLB Gameday should have no bearing on our opinion of in-stadium pitch tracking by MLB. It means Gameday is flawed.

 

My post is to highlight the inaccuraries of Gameday, not the concept of electronic pitch tracking.

[GP830]

I bet this goes all the way to the top...

[Blake]

 

In no way do I mean to imply that was a good pitch, only that it was a hard-ish pitch to hit. Anytime you have a pitch that is both low and inside, credit should go to the hitter for making that hard of contact with the ball.

 

Read into that what you will. Basically, I guess I'm giving credit to Romine and neutral on Gibson.

I think we're in agreement on that. 

[nicksaviking]

 

According to that link Gibson threw 20  pitches yesterday.

 

You guys watch the grand slam? Came on a slider.

 

Impossible. That doesn't fit with my agenda obsession observation joke that Gibson should give up his sinker.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Somebody in the game thread said the pitch was low, and that Romine is a low ball hitter. Based on that I think it was a terrible pitch.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Regardless of how low it was

[USAFChief]

As noted above, down and in to a LH hitter is a danger zone.  And it's pretty clear from the swing, Romine was sitting on a slider.  

 

I also agree with Brock...the main problem with that inning was hitting Martinez (on a 1-2 count) and walking Upton.  

 

I also believe all three of these issues (the GS pitch, the hit batsman, and the 5 pitch walk) are related...Gibson doesn't have swing and miss stuff, has a tendency to get himself in trouble, and when he does, has a tendency to let things escalate.

 

He entered that inning leading 3-0.  Gave up a leadoff double.  OK, pitchers sometimes give up hits.  Got the next out, runner advances.  OK, it'd be nice to get a K here, and leave that runner at third with one out.  But the main thing is...get the next hitter (Martinez).  He hits a ground ball, you're still up 3-1, and the inning sits with 2 out, nobody on.

 

But hit him, and then walk the next guy, and now you've got a situation.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Regardless of how low it was

I'm too lazy to look up a heat map for Romine but the ball wasn't only low, it was both low and inside the strike zone. That pitch is called a ball almost every time, which means it's probably a pretty hard pitch to hit.*

 

*under normal umpiring rules, that pitch was a ball... with yesterday's ump, it could have been anything

[d-mac]

 

While watching yesterday's painful at-bat from Romine, it looked like he golfed that pitch out of the park.

 

I was perusing the game info today and noticed Gameday had the pitch listed here:

 

wheelhouse.jpg

 

Okay, yeah, so that's not a golf swing. That's dead red in the wheelhouse.

 

But then look at the actual game. Here's the swing:

 

swing.jpg

 

Okay, that meets the eye test of what I saw. Romine is swinging at a pitch well outside the zone, down and in.

 

But here's the kicker: the actual in-game Fox Trax pitch tracking put the ball here (red square to emphasize which pitch was appearing on the screen as the ball launched into orbit):

 

swing-2.jpg

 

What gives? The eye test says that was a good swing on a pitch outside the zone, the in-game pitch tracker confirms it, and then the Gameday pitch tracker says the pitch was a gimme home run pitch.

 

I've relied pretty heavily on pitch trackers in the past but this is giving me pause, that maybe I shouldn't trust the information found in Gameday.

 

BTW, this is not the first time I've noticed this discrepancy; the first time was that ill-fated Mauer walk conversation from the KC series where I look at Joe's plate appearance a dozen times and the Gameday pitch tracker had the pitch a good 3-4 inches closer to the zone than the actual pitch looked on video. But I could chalk that up to both the pitch tracker being a bit off and me misreading the strike zone... though I'm pretty sure I wasn't misreading the zone to the extent of being off 3-4 inches. The ball was clearly at or just below Joe's knee and touching the black while the Gameday pitch tracker had it well inside the black and a few inches above Joe's knee.

 

In any case, I can forgive a few inches here or there but Gameday has Romine's pitch in the middle of the zone while the actual pitch was outside the zone.

 

I was following the game at work. Gameday took a major dump during the game and was out for several innings. Then when it started working again the pitch data was missing. So I wouldn't read too much into it. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I also believe all three of these issues (the GS pitch, the hit batsman, and the 5 pitch walk) are related...Gibson doesn't have swing and miss stuff, has a tendency to get himself in trouble, and when he does, has a tendency to let things escalate.

On that we agree. I'm not giving Gibson a pass for the grand slam pitch, I'm merely saying it wasn't the most egregious mistake of the inning. The entire inning was a mix of Gibson getting cute and completely losing his feel for the strike zone. That meant lots of throwaway pitches, a lack of putaway pitches, and just general tomfoolery all around.

 

And that's on Gibson. He was flat-out rolling up to that point. He needs to find a way to stay on track and not fall prey to a big inning in a game where he should cruise through seven innings.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I was following the game at work. Gameday took a major dump during the game and was out for several innings. Then when it started working again the pitch data was missing. So I wouldn't read too much into it. 

Ah, good point. I forgot that Gameday went to hell yesterday.

[Willihammer]

So Gibson blew the lead AND broke Gameday. That's a good days work even for him.

[Halsey Hall]

I saw it as Brock did, a low, inside pitch. It looked like Romine was sitting dead red for that ball and connected. I also agree, Gibson put himself in that position loading the bases. When he does that not much good ever follows.