LEN3 on the end of the home season.

[Platoon]

I have been critical of the Twins beat writers for several years. But today LEN3 put this out for out perusal. Much has been said, written, or blogged before, but this is fairly high profile. I didn't see a mention of Plouffe though. I agree with most of it, but I would really hate to see Vargas go. Park? Eh. And if Plouffe goes, it more or less removes Sano from the DH equation. Anyway, for your enjoyment:

 

http://www.startribune.com/twins-postgame-year-19-is-coming-to-an-end-some-thoughts/394749931/

[Thrylos]

 

 

What did I just write? They need to do that anyway. Matt Garza and Brad Radke are their last two homegrown starters. Wow.

 

This is a false statement.   

[alarp33]

 

This is a false statement.   

 

I'm guessing he missed some sort of qualifier, obviously they aren't the last 2 homegrown starters, there's multiple on this years roster.  

 

 

[nicksaviking]

 

This is a false statement.   

 

To me it read like he accidentally left out an adjective, such as "above average".

 

--The Twins need to cut the cord with Kennys Vargas, Byung Ho Park or both. The DH spot needs to be available for Mauer and Sano.--

 

--I do think Sano is sincere about wanting to lose weight and stay on the field. His challenge is to keep the big picture in focus.--

 

Well the Twins challenge should also be to keep the big picture in focus; what becomes of Joe Mauer should have no impact on the rest of the other 39 (24) roster spots. If the team thinks it's a good idea to part with Vargas and Park, that's fine, but it can't be because they have to save a DH spot for Mauer, that's just short-sighted.

[USAFChief]

Pretty mild criticism of a team that will lose 100 games, and 550-plus over 6 seasons.  And yet, the closest any Twins beat writer has come to calling out the team in my lifetime.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

To me it read like he accidentally left out an adjective, such as "above average".

Even then, I'm not sure it's correct.  Baker was comfortably above average with the Twins.  I guess he was drafted before Garza but obviously his Twins tenure extended well after.  (Slowey too was a borderline average starter through 2010.)

 

Also, I don't get the obsession with "homegrown".  The much-praised Cleveland rotation is mostly not "homegrown".  The generally successful Twins starting staffs from 2001-2006 weren't "homegrown" except for Radke.  I'm not convinced that drafting is the definitive failure here.

[mazeville]

 

Even then, I'm not sure it's correct.  Baker was comfortably above average with the Twins.  I guess he was drafted before Garza but obviously his Twins tenure extended well after.  (Slowey too was a borderline average starter through 2010.)

 

Also, I don't get the obsession with "homegrown".  The much-praised Cleveland rotation is mostly not "homegrown".  The generally successful Twins starting staffs from 2001-2006 weren't "homegrown" except for Radke.  I'm not convinced that drafting is the definitive failure here.

 

Um, you still have to develop pitchers. And there's no question the team's track record on this is brutal. He is absolutely right. The Twins do not develop pitching well enough to be competitive. 

[HitInAPinch]

Being a beat-writer ain't an easy job.  Sure, you can run off about the team you're covering and look great to bloggers.  Oh, you stand a good chance of not getting your ticket punched to enter the Twins locker room every again......

 

I do agree, as always, with the things that Len wrote.  I also, as always, do not agree with some.

Example:

 

"The Twins can't have a left side of the infield with Jorge Polanco and Migue Sano. There will be too many mistakes between the both of them."

 

Followed by:

 

"Polanco doesn't have the arm to play shortstop."

 

Agree on the 1st.  Sano will never become a respectable defensive 3rd bagger.  I've always thought his offense would make the difference.  I'll give him a mulligan just because it was his sophomore season.

 

On the 2nd:  Polanco doesn't have the arm?  Highly disagree.  If anything, it's his footwork.  And certainly forgivable considering the lack of SS playing time in the MiLB.

 

I really enjoyed the mirage that was the 2015 season.  2016 was really an anticipated fall. 

 

There were some really high points ( e.i.  Texas Rangers, Cole Hamels      )  and they won some series.  Some players developed, some still working on it and some still in the MiLB.

 

"Turning around a franchise takes as much time as it does to fix a pitching staff. As soon as the Twins can sort their pitching out, they can compete."

 

THIS.   I'd probably add "they MAY be able to compete".   

And that pitching will come from where?

 

 

[magiklair]

I like Vargas, if they going to cut the cord perhaps it should be on Mauer. Park I'm not so sure about, let's see what he does in Triple A.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Um, you still have to develop pitchers. And there's no question the team's track record on this is brutal. He is absolutely right. The Twins do not develop pitching well enough to be competitive. 

Right.  But development doesn't necessarily have a ton to do with whether they are strictly "homegrown" as in originally signed/drafted by the club.  Tons of great teams and players would fail the "homegrown" test in the starting pitching department.

 

The better list than "no homegrown starters since Radke and Garza", would be "no good young starters since Garza" (or Baker), homegrown or otherwise.  If the Twins had actually produced some guys like Santana, Liriano, Milton, Mays, Lohse, and Silva these past few years, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation.

[mazeville]

 

Right.  But development doesn't necessarily have a ton to do with whether they are strictly "homegrown" as in originally signed/drafted by the club.  Tons of great teams and players would fail the "homegrown" test in the starting pitching department.

 

The better list than "no homegrown starters since Radke and Garza", would be "no good young starters since Garza" (or Baker), homegrown or otherwise.  If the Twins had actually produced some guys like Santana, Liriano, Milton, Mays, Lohse, and Silva these past few years, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

At this point you're nitpicking. The broader point is the same: The Twins have not developed a good starting pitcher in a long time, and that's very, very bad. 

[big dog]

And if we are going to spend high draft picks on pitchers, we'd better be able to develop them.  If we get them from outside, fine, but then let's draft people we can use.

[nicksaviking]

 

 

Also, I don't get the obsession with "homegrown".  The much-praised Cleveland rotation is mostly not "homegrown".  The generally successful Twins starting staffs from 2001-2006 weren't "homegrown" except for Radke.  I'm not convinced that drafting is the definitive failure here.

 

But when you have an organization that doesn't feel comfortable paying for more than a mid-rotation starter in free agency, missing in the draft is a pretty big deal. You can go the trade route, but then you have to give up another valuable commodity. For a thrifty team, I'd think being able to draft and develop your own pitchers should probably be priority number 1. Of the three methods of acquiring talent, it's basically the "free" option.

[USAFChief]

 

But when you have an organization that doesn't feel comfortable paying for more than a mid-rotation starter in free agency, missing in the draft is a pretty big deal. You can go the trade route, but then you have to give up another valuable commodity. For a thrifty team, I'd think being able to draft and develop your own pitchers should probably be priority number 1. Of the three methods of acquiring talent, it's basically the "free" option.

They've also repeatedly self-identified as a "draft and develop" team.

 

"We're going to do this the right way.  No shortcuts."  

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

But when you have an organization that doesn't feel comfortable paying for more than a mid-rotation starter in free agency, missing in the draft is a pretty big deal. You can go the trade route, but then you have to give up another valuable commodity. For a thrifty team, I'd think being able to draft and develop your own pitchers should probably be priority number 1. Of the three methods of acquiring talent, it's basically the "free" option.

Cleveland certainly doesn't feel comfortable paying for more than a mid-rotation starter in free agency (probably not even that), Josh Tomlin is their only drafted starter, Danny Salazar is their only other "homegrown" starter (international FA), and both were drafted/signed 10 years ago while assistant GM Derek Falvey was still in college.

 

I don't doubt that we need to get better at drafting and we should look at that, just saying that the focus on drafting and "homegrown"-ness of players probably obscures the bigger problem of development.  (It's obviously complicated, though.)

[nicksaviking]

 

Cleveland certainly doesn't feel comfortable paying for more than a mid-rotation starter in free agency (probably not even that), Josh Tomlin is their only drafted starter, Danny Salazar is their only other "homegrown" starter (international FA), and both were drafted/signed 10 years ago while assistant GM Derek Falvey was still in college.

 

I don't doubt that we need to get better at drafting and we should look at that, just saying that the focus on drafting and "homegrown"-ness of players probably obscures the bigger problem of development.  (It's obviously complicated, though.)

 

Got it. Yeah it would take some intense investigation to determine if it's the drafting or developing that is the bigger issue. Hopefully new leadership hedges their bet and says that both areas are in desperate need of renovation

[wsnydes]

 

Also, I don't get the obsession with "homegrown".  The much-praised Cleveland rotation is mostly not "homegrown".  The generally successful Twins starting staffs from 2001-2006 weren't "homegrown" except for Radke.  I'm not convinced that drafting is the definitive failure here.

Drafting is certainly not the only definitive failure when it comes to the pitching staff.  My take on the homegrown thing is this:  pitching is more expensive and harder to come by than position players, typically.  Being able to develop your own staff is advantageous because you can focus your financial resources on the position players instead of constantly chasing something that is more difficult to find/acquire.  As always though, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Blackjack]

 

At this point you're nitpicking. The broader point is the same: The Twins have not developed a good starting pitcher in a long time, and that's very, very bad. 

 

Nitpicking was exactly the term I was thinking of as I read thru the posts nitpicking LEN's pitching comments.

[bird]

We can probably get better at drafting and at developing, but I wouldn't describe either of those two things as definitive issues by any means.

 

Effective management of player assets involves buying and selling the right players, at the right time, and at the right price. It involves assessing needs competently, solving deficiencies competently, and constructing a roster with clear goals in mind and everyone being on the same page. It involves having certain disciplines in place, and a vision, and a well-vetted, big-picture strategy. It's all of these things that have been lacking. Talent evaluation and development have not been the issue, but it's understandable that this is the first conclusion most people reach. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

We can probably get better at drafting and at developing, but I wouldn't describe either of those two things as definitive issues by any means.

 

Effective management of player assets involves buying and selling the right players, at the right time, and at the right price. It involves assessing needs competently, solving deficiencies competently, and constructing a roster with clear goals in mind and everyone being on the same page. It involves having certain disciplines in place, and a vision, and a well-vetted, big-picture strategy. It's all of these things that have been lacking. Talent evaluation and development have not been the issue, but it's understandable that this is the first conclusion most people reach. 

 

On this we agree 100%. Also, it involves better self awareness of where you are in the journey, which you said, but I am saying again, because this is one of the root causes, imo, of why they are where they are. They really self assessed poorly recently.

[wsnydes]

 

Um, you still have to develop pitchers. And there's no question the team's track record on this is brutal. He is absolutely right. The Twins do not develop pitching well enough to be competitive. 

This.  For a team that doesn't reside in a large market, developing their own pitching is a must in order to stay competitive over the long haul.  That's how the Rays were able to maintain their run of excellence.  Most teams cannot simply go buy pitching talent every offseason, so developing that talent is a must.