Who Fits Where at the Deadline

[bird]

 

If Gibson had been rolling for two months, I'd be more inclined to agree. Right now, I think any offer would skew on the low end of things.

 

And that's not the time to trade a guy unless you *need* to clear roster space. Obviously, that's not the case with the Twins.

 

And given how the Twins may want to move three other starters, adding Gibson to the mix seems like muddying the situation. If a team asks for Gibson, push them toward Santana. If a team wants to lowball a pitcher, push Nolasco or Milone on them.

 

I don't see much benefit in adding Gibson's name to the mix today.

 

 

Furthermore, I doubt a single member of the Twin's field staff believes that Gibson isn't much much more likely to produce for the team than any of Wheeler, Albers, Dean, Darnell, Baxendale....we do not have a surplus of pitchers that are of Gibson's caliber. The coaching staff just needs to help him avoid those frustrating periods of drastic under-performance. I for one am skeptical that we have the coaching in MLB to consistently deliver that kind of value.

 

I miss Rick Anderson. 

[DJSim22]

I think the Twins need to trade one starter and keep the rest.  Best deal.  For argument sake, say it is Santana.  You then go into next spring with a rotation of Gibson, Duffy, Nolasco, Berrios, Milone and the young kids.  This is assuming no injuries.  Trading more than one seems like too much for a team in desperate need of pitching to start with.  Free agents look horrible and I highly doubt more than one of the AA guys could make any waves next year.  If one is in the rotation, great.  The others need to be ready in the minors for injuries that will come.  I don't see a year where Gibson and Nolasco are not injured.  I don't think you can count on Hughes right now for any spot starting or relieving. 

 

Pitch to contact, is a made up term that makes no sense.  There's nothing wrong with throwing strikes and not walking people.  Control is an asset regardless of velocity.  You also miss bats with deception and an ability to throw multiple pitches for strikes.  Pitch to contact is an over simplified term at best. If the game were solely about K's and velocity, Trevor May would have been the Twins all-star.  

 

I'd trade one of Santana/Gibson/Nolasco, Abad, Suzuki, and Dozier or Nunez if able to get reasonable deals. I agreed Plouffe is a non tender at this point as I wonder if he even plays again this year. I like to keep Kintzler around cheap as he's the anti May, and doesn't piss down his leg in high leverage situations and I'm concerned about the back end without Perk.      

 

 

[Bill Brown69]

First problem with many of us is "trade x position player so we can get B up here" What I think is missing is having to fight for your playing time/job. Plouffe can be a bench/utility player, Polanco can fight with Dozier and Sano for AB's. I think we have the right outfield now. 4 guys that are not pigeonholed into a certain slot. When Plouffe comes back we either have 1 too many infielder or 1 too many extra Vargas/Mauer but competition SHOULD let that play itself out. If competition is a problem then problems go deeper than the players and then "total system failure" is upon us and the whole thing needs blown up!!!

 

I have pointed this out before but Lance Berkman joined the Yankees to be a bench bat. No wonder we haven't been competitive. Lance Berkman would have been this team's MVP for 5 years running.

 

Great teams have bench players that could be someone else's All Star if given the opportunity.

[pierre75275]

Trading Dozier and keeping Nunez opens two middle infield holes after next season. And while you'd like to hope your future middle infield is Polanco-Gordon, I'm not sure you can bank on that.

[pierre75275]

Trading Dozier and nontendering Plouffe opens up 2 holes. Keeping Nunez, playing Polanco, keeping Escobar and Santana and playing Sano still leaves good options for the middle INF positions. The defense will suffer going that route but I would like to see what happens taking that route. It helps that Mauer and Park can both pick it at First.

[Mr. Brooks]

Like everything, it's a game of price is right. A brief extension like the one given to Suzuki in order to buy us time to get Gordon up or otherwise find a longer term solution wouldn't be horrible, as much flack as Zuke's got when playing poorly not-withstanding. With Plouffe being gone, Nunez becomes more valuable to us and us to him. Who's better over the next 2 seasons? Plouffe, Nuenez or Escobar? Interesting debate. I'd have to take Plouffe out of those 3, but he's the most expensive and pretty unlikely to return. I do not see Sano sticking at 3rd, nor Nunez having another year like this, but for the right price, he's a valuable piece. Gordon isn't ready yet, and Polanco is likely a slight downgrade.

An extension is still completely unnecessary. Nunez will be 31 when he hits FA and will likely be viewed around the league as a utility player.

You could probably re sign him for 2 years at 11 million (5.5 per) max if you still needed a bridge to Gordon.

[rghrbek]

 

An extension is still completely unnecessary. Nunez will be 31 when he hits FA and will likely be viewed around the league as a utility player.
You could probably re sign him for 2 years at 11 million (5.5 per) max if you still needed a bridge to Gordon.

Nunez is in a slump.   I think my gut is telling me he is not a .300 plus hitter.   He has had a great season at the plate.   Talk of extending him though?   No way.   You cannot even say he is all bat and no glove, because this is the only year he has performed at a high high level offensively.

 

He's batting .302, with a .328 ob%.   If he can stay at that level, it's a great offensive season for a SS, especially a twins shortstop.

 

However, in the last week he is batting .138.   I am just not sold that we should extend him.   Especially with one more year of control.

 

In fact I would try and move him.

[mazeville]

 

There was no market for third basemen.

 

Zilch.

 

David Freese, a pretty equivalent player, languished on the free agent market (where you don't even have to give up a prospect to get him) and he didn't sign until March and only for $3M. To acquire Plouffe would have meant taking on his $7M salary - why would another team give up anything at all to do this, to speak nothing of it being an actual good prospect?

 

Trading Plouffe would have accomplished nothing. And he's a non-tender candidate for this off-season, so there was no urgency to move him simply for the salary relief.

 

Man this drives me nuts.

 

No, there was no market for third basemen this offseason. But there is even less of a market for third basemen now. And Plouffe has destroyed what little trade value he has.

 

He costs $7 million this year. Because the Twins decided to keep him and sign a DH (even though they have like 39 players on their 40-man roster who are bested suited for 1B/DH roles), they pushed Sano into the outfield, where his defense is even worse and where the team already has a bunch of players needing playing time.

 

The Twins should have traded Plouffe in the offseason to balance their roster. NOT to get some sort of massive return. 

[mazeville]

 

Not if you have watched Brooks Sano at 3B this season.

 

"Brooks Sano" has not played third base in a year. Of course he looks like garbage. He didn't even play there in spring training.

 

And this is a major problem with the team's player development. They watched him play third base for years in the minors, and didn't move him to another position until he got to the majors. That's utterly, utterly stupid.

[Major League Ready]

 

"Brooks Sano" has not played third base in a year. Of course he looks like garbage. He didn't even play there in spring training.

 

And this is a major problem with the team's player development. They watched him play third base for years in the minors, and didn't move him to another position until he got to the majors. That's utterly, utterly stupid.

There must be a great deal of stupidity in MLB then because this is something that has happened often and there are many success stories.  Seemed liked it worked out pretty well for us with Cuddyer. What if KC would have thought this way with Alex Gordon. How about a very current example named Ian Desmond?  The Rangers made this move with a guy that is 30 and its looking damn smart right now.very  I would bet the baseball  junkies here could name two or three dozen successful transitions at the MLB level of the top of their collective heads.  

 

I don't quite know what to think because Sano looks great and then terrible at 3B.  However, an experiment in the OF in a lost season is a heck of a lot smarter baseball decision than relegating someone as athletic as Sano to DH in his early 20s.  Personally, I would have waited it out just like they did with Plouffe but this is hardly an uncommon practice and there are certainly plenty of success stories to warrant these experiments.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Agree 100% on the Plouffe thing last year.  The 2nd part confused me.  Are you talking last year or this year?  Millone's been a pretty solid pitcher for a cheap price and no commitment.  He was waived and unclaimed which means he has no street value.  I see him as the essence of money ball.  Cheap but effective.  If waived again, he doesn't have to accept an assignment and can become a FA and I think we'd still be on the hook for the salary difference.  (not positive, MLB waiver rules are complex).  Twins fans, out of everyone, should be able to see the value in having pitchers who can be signed cheaply and without multiyear commitments.  Without Millones or Pelfreys you have to suddenly overpay for Hughes and Nolcascos.  That's what set us back (combined with lack of prospect development to replace Hughes and Nolascos in their decline).  I'll never get the hate for Millone.

 

I meant this last offseason, and no, I don't hate the guy. Milone was coming off a decent season and was one of 7 pitchers competing for 5 spots, not to mention his clone in Pat Dean had been added to the 40 man as well, and at the time Berrios was slated to start in AAA while not on the 40 man. Rogers was also slated for AAA and a starter on the 40 man or a possible reliever. That's too many pitchers with guys like Milone blocking upside guys like Berrios, May, and Duffey. 

 

He should have been traded this offseason, and while I didn't expect much of a return, the money saved could have gone towards a bullpen pick up that the team needed, or perhaps he netted a reliever in return. Instead, Duffey starts in AAA (granted this was probably appropriate) and May moves to the pen (not nearly as justifiable). We were already overpaying for Nolasco, who I might add is a guy I'd have rather put in the pen over May.  I wanted to move Milone while he had some value. Now, he's got none and is blocking Berrios.  He's also more expensive. This is a scenario where Jim Polhad could have picked up a couple more wins by saving a few million, and it wasn't that hard to see.

 

I don't have anything against Milone. I do know that pitchers of his type walk a fine line, and after a decent season, moving him for anything would have been wise.

[Mr. Brooks]

There must be a great deal of stupidity in MLB then because this is something that has happened often and there are many success stories. Seemed liked it worked out pretty well for us with Cuddyer. What if KC would have thought this way with Alex Gordon. How about a very current example named Ian Desmond? The Rangers made this move with a guy that is 30 and its looking damn smart right now.very I would bet the baseball junkies here could name two or three dozen successful transitions at the MLB level of the top of their collective heads.

 

I don't quite know what to think because Sano looks great and then terrible at 3B. However, an experiment in the OF in a lost season is a heck of a lot smarter baseball decision than relegating someone as athletic as Sano to DH in his early 20s. Personally, I would have waited it out just like they did with Plouffe but this is hardly an uncommon practice and there are certainly plenty of success stories to warrant these experiments.

Cuddyer was pretty brutal at every position he played. Career dwar of minus 16.6.

I'm not sure why you are using this as an example that worked out? 60 percent of his value on offense was negated by his bad defense. If anything this is a cautionary tale. Perhaps he'd have been a replacement level fielder if he'd stuck to one position.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

 I for one am skeptical that we have the coaching in MLB to consistently deliver that kind of value.

 

I miss Rick Anderson. 

 

While I agree with the first statement, I think you need to be checked for a concussion. Any doctors on the board?

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Man this drives me nuts.

 

No, there was no market for third basemen this offseason. But there is even less of a market for third basemen now. And Plouffe has destroyed what little trade value he has.

 

He costs $7 million this year. Because the Twins decided to keep him and sign a DH (even though they have like 39 players on their 40-man roster who are bested suited for 1B/DH roles), they pushed Sano into the outfield, where his defense is even worse and where the team already has a bunch of players needing playing time.

 

The Twins should have traded Plouffe in the offseason to balance their roster. NOT to get some sort of massive return. 

If he had zero value this offseason (which is what I'm saying and I think Ashbury as well), then he hasn't destroyed his value, now has he?  His only cost is money, and then you can potentially flip him to a team like NY who was a good bet to be in need of a 3B at the deadline.

 

Plouffe got hurt though, it happens. I'd note an August trade is still a very real possibility here.

[howieramone2]

 

There must be a great deal of stupidity in MLB then because this is something that has happened often and there are many success stories.  Seemed liked it worked out pretty well for us with Cuddyer. What if KC would have thought this way with Alex Gordon. How about a very current example named Ian Desmond?  The Rangers made this move with a guy that is 30 and its looking damn smart right now.very  I would bet the baseball  junkies here could name two or three dozen successful transitions at the MLB level of the top of their collective heads.  

 

I don't quite know what to think because Sano looks great and then terrible at 3B.  However, an experiment in the OF in a lost season is a heck of a lot smarter baseball decision than relegating someone as athletic as Sano to DH in his early 20s.  Personally, I would have waited it out just like they did with Plouffe but this is hardly an uncommon practice and there are certainly plenty of success stories to warrant these experiments.

Bingo!

[Mr. Brooks]

If he had zero value this offseason (which is what I'm saying and I think Ashbury as well), then he hasn't destroyed his value, now has he? His only cost is money, and then you can potentially flip him to a team like NY who was a good bet to be in need of a 3B at the deadline.

 

Plouffe got hurt though, it happens. I'd note an August trade is still a very real possibility here.

I think his value was depressed but I don't agree he had zero value. I think someone might have been willing to throw a low A ball lotto ticket our way for him.

The best he's worth now is PTBNL or cash, and that's if we eat most of his salary.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I think his value was depressed but I don't agree he had zero value. I think someone might have been willing to throw a low A ball lotto ticket our way for him.
The best he's worth now is PTBNL or cash, and that's if we eat most of his salary.

 

Guess we are agreeing to disagree, as I think a low A upside prospect would have probably sent Plouffe packing. 

[Brandon Warne]

 

Trading Dozier and nontendering Plouffe opens up 2 holes. Keeping Nunez, playing Polanco, keeping Escobar and Santana and playing Sano still leaves good options for the middle INF positions. The defense will suffer going that route but I would like to see what happens taking that route. It helps that Mauer and Park can both pick it at First.

 

Nunez is a free agent after next year is my point. 

[Brandon Warne]

 

The level at which the league sets the QO would be well above market value unless he ups his game dramatically, wouldn't it? He's still viewed as a bat-first backup with below average defense.

 

The QO may not exist after this year anyway. But my point is, he's young enough that he's going to (possibly) bank on a multi-year deal over one year of nice salary. It's hard to say for sure, and also banking on the unlikely repeating of this year. All I'm saying is it's part of the equation. If you do/don't move Nunez this year, you'd better have a plan. 

[mudcat14]

I'd love to see Santana go to the Orioles in exchange for the young catcher, Sisco.  I'm sure there would have to be other pieces or financial concessions made to make it happen, but his hitting numbers are impressive. 

[jorgenswest]

I'd love to see Santana go to the Orioles in exchange for the young catcher, Sisco. I'm sure there would have to be other pieces or financial concessions made to make it happen, but his hitting numbers are impressive.

 

I would also. I do wonder if they can get a pitcher with more upside if they are willing to part with Sisco.

[Thrylos]

 

Expecting anything more than monetary salary relief in return for Nolasco is a mistake in my opinion.

 

With Nolasco (and Santana, and Hughes) is not the  money, but the opportunity cost in blocked pitchers

[DocBauer]

Hitting on a couple points:

 

While we can cry roster mismanagement, and we'd be right, bringing back Plouffe was a ni-brainer if there was no market. The downfall was an injury plagued season. But his time is now passed. Don't get down on Sano! How many times do we have to be remembered that it takes time to smooth things out? Think about early Gatti or Koskie or Plouffe.

 

I'd like to keep Nunez. He won't be expensive, and even if this season is a complete mirage, he's a solid role player for 2017. Escobar possibly/probably reclaims the SS job, and Nunez and Polanco can play all over if you keep the under 30 Dozier. Those are nice options to have.

 

I also had no problem bringing back Milone as a #5 option. Cheap, experienced and fairly dependable. The only problem was, I viewed him as the 6th SP because I would have had May in the rotation. His time is also probably up.

 

I don't get the dislike by some for Gibson. He's relatively young, shows potential, and is only in his 3rd season. He was better last year than his "rookie" season (missed true rookie status by something like 1/3 of an inning). Healthy again, he's pitching well.

 

Santana, Gibson, Berrios, Duffey and May for 2017 with Wheeler, Meyer and Dean as possibles. You simply can't count on Hughes at this point for anything.

[Major League Ready]

 

Cuddyer was pretty brutal at every position he played. Career dwar of minus 16.6.
I'm not sure why you are using this as an example that worked out? 60 percent of his value on offense was negated by his bad defense. If anything this is a cautionary tale. Perhaps he'd have been a replacement level fielder if he'd stuck to one position.

Fair enough.  I really did not stop to think too much about it with him because he was a popular Twin.  There are many other better examples.  Moving him to the outfield was still better than him going through his career as a DH, bench bat or whatever reduced role he would have played had he not been moved to the outfield.  I also think defensive stats are not the most reliable as stats go.

[TheLeviathan]

 

]Trading Plouffe would have accomplished nothing. And he's a non-tender candidate for this off-season, so there was no urgency to move him simply for the salary relief.

 

The urgency to move him was to avoid the idea of putting Miguel Sano in RF.  We set off a domino effect of poor decisions the moment we decided retaining Trevor Plouffe was a good idea.  

 

I could care less about salary relief, trading Plouffe was basically the only way to save the team from itself.

 

And if there really was zero market for Plouffe (a dubious claim, I'd have taken cash for him) - then don't offer him anything in Arb. and let him walk.

 

This board, this fanbase, and this front office WAY overinflated what Plouffe was because he appeared to be one of the few two-way competent players on a team full of guys that often couldn't do either, much less both.  People thought he'd out produce Donaldson.  People thought we should offer him a QO this offseason.

 

It appears, even still, that our view of Trevor Plouffe still hasn't meshed with reality even if we've come back down just a bit from where we were 9 months ago.  But here's reality: last offseason we should've done whatever it took to get him off the roster.  We still should.

[Bill Brown69]

The urgency to move him was to avoid the idea of putting Miguel Sano in RF.  We set off a domino effect of poor decisions the moment we decided retaining Trevor Plouffe was a good idea.  

 

I could care less about salary relief, trading Plouffe was basically the only way to save the team from itself.

 

And if there really was zero market for Plouffe (a dubious claim, I'd have taken cash for him) - then don't offer him anything in Arb. and let him walk.

 

This board, this fanbase, and this front office WAY overinflated what Plouffe was because he appeared to be one of the few two-way competent players on a team full of guys that often couldn't do either, much less both.  People thought he'd out produce Donaldson.  People thought we should offer him a QO this offseason.

 

It appears, even still, that our view of Trevor Plouffe still hasn't meshed with reality even if we've come back down just a bit from where we were 9 months ago.  But here's reality: last offseason we should've done whatever it took to get him off the roster.  We still should.

No, we should do what good teams do. Make Plouffe and Sano compete for time while we have a legit bat on the bench.

[alarp33]

I know that it's always been all the rage to pick on Twins management, and to be fair, they earn the criticism from time to time, but doing so in a vacuum without actual context really bothers me.

 

Ash said it right, there was no market.  Fraiser (a much better 3B than Plouffe) had a very underwhelming return. Freese (an equivalent) signed for 4M less than what Plouffe is making.  TR rolled the dice here and instead of a nontender/sell for basically no return, he (I assume) hoped that Plouffe could have a similar season and potentially be moved at the deadline. Maybe that wasn't his line of reasoning, I don't know.  But of all the decisions to criticize, keeping a 20+ HR guy with decent defense at the corner given the sheer number of unknowns in the line up isn't a mistake I can really get all too upset about...

 

Leaving Milone on the roster when he might have had some value (not to mention having 7 starters for 5 spots plus Rogers/Dean on the 40 man and Berrios sitting in AAA) or not getting help in the pen... those were much bigger mistakes.

There was no market, but the team was better off without another low obp right handed hitter that forced Sano to RF. The results speak for themselves. Who cares about getting value for him when you're a better team without.

 

This isn't hindsight either, i said the same thing in Feb and have been proven right

[alarp33]

The urgency to move him was to avoid the idea of putting Miguel Sano in RF.  We set off a domino effect of poor decisions the moment we decided retaining Trevor Plouffe was a good idea.  

 

I could care less about salary relief, trading Plouffe was basically the only way to save the team from itself.

 

And if there really was zero market for Plouffe (a dubious claim, I'd have taken cash for him) - then don't offer him anything in Arb. and let him walk.

 

This board, this fanbase, and this front office WAY overinflated what Plouffe was because he appeared to be one of the few two-way competent players on a team full of guys that often couldn't do either, much less both.  People thought he'd out produce Donaldson.  People thought we should offer him a QO this offseason.

 

It appears, even still, that our view of Trevor Plouffe still hasn't meshed with reality even if we've come back down just a bit from where we were 9 months ago.  But here's reality: last offseason we should've done whatever it took to get him off the roster.  We still should.

Thank you. After how this season played out, I can't believe people are still arguing this notion you just had to keep Plouffe. You know why there was no market for him, because anyone outside of MN probably saw him as a below avg fielder, who doesn't get on base and has so so pop.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Or, if Ryan and Antony claimed they were in talent acquisition mode this offseason regardless of position need, and an All Star third baseman like Frazier was acquired for peanuts, then maybe the Twins should have acquired Frazier?

[Shane Wahl]

Are the Twins willing to just pay the remainder of 2016 salary on these guys? That would change the trade situation dramatically. This season was expected to be a season of contention and thus the salaries would been accounted for. Now imagine getting 6 prospects back in the 300-600 range to essentially also clear roster space while adding to the depth of the system. Suzuki, Plouffe, Nunez, Abad, Kintzler, and either Escobar or Grossman. Deal.