Who Fits Where at the Deadline

[TheLeviathan]

 

No, we should do what good teams do. Make Plouffe and Sano compete for time while we have a legit bat on the bench.

 

You don't make your all-world young talent "compete" for playing time.  You give him a spot and trust him with it so that he has the confidence to try and fail until he succeeds.  Sending him out to play a position he'd never played is setting up Sano for failure.  

 

These guys aren't robots.  Keeping Plouffe was the equivalent of flipping the bird to our best young player.  And, as alarp said, some of us were shouting that all offseason.  

 

You don't sit someone (or shift positions last minute) like Sano in favor of Plouffe.  That mentality is exactly why this team fell on it's face to start this year.

[Willihammer]

After watching the last month of baseball its increasingly clear to me this is not, or shouldn't be, a Sano v. Plouffe question. Sano simply can't hack it at third. I don't care how "rusty" he is. The guy has played several thousand innings there, and he's awful. Every part of his game is below average except one- arm strength. And that's not enough.

 

This team needs to take improving its infield defense as seriously as its taken improving its outfield defense. Keeping Plouffe (or a comparable glove) at third, and moving Sano to first or DH, would be a good next step.

[jorgenswest]

Ryan's gone. Time to stop looking backward and rearguing every decision. Let's look forward.

 

If I can't trade Plouffe, I would not tender an offer. Let him go and give Sano a full year at 3B. Can anyone argue for taking Plouffe to arbitration this winter?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Sano is under a microscope but he is my guy without a hesitation or doubt. I never cared for Plouffe at third but admit that Plouffe did become pretty good there after being given a couple of seasons. But according to Fangraphs, Sano is already a better fielder than Plouffe right now. I'd part ways with Plouffe as soon as possible to signal to Sano that the third base job is his. Then hopefully Sano comes back to spring training next season a little better than last. And of course if Sano doesn't make strides at third he can move to first or DH when those positions open up in another year or two. I think trying to find playing time for Plouffe going forward is the wrong way to look at the team and I hope I'm on the same page as the present and future GM.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Thank you. After how this season played out, I can't believe people are still arguing this notion you just had to keep Plouffe. You know why there was no market for him, because anyone outside of MN probably saw him as a below avg fielder, who doesn't get on base and has so so pop.

What?

 

I literally cannot find a single defensive metric that routinely graded Plouffe below average prior to the 2016 season.

[Bill Brown69]

Giving people positions instead of making them earn it is one of the problems with this team. The only year they have had any fight was last year when Torri returned. Given a fair audition Sano would win a job and then Plouffe and Joe fight it out.

 

You don't make your all-world young talent "compete" for playing time.  You give him a spot and trust him with it so that he has the confidence to try and fail until he succeeds.  Sending him out to play a position he'd never played is setting up Sano for failure.  

 

These guys aren't robots.  Keeping Plouffe was the equivalent of flipping the bird to our best young player.  And, as alarp said, some of us were shouting that all offseason.  

 

You don't sit someone (or shift positions last minute) like Sano in favor of Plouffe.  That mentality is exactly why this team fell on it's face to start this year.

[TheLeviathan]

There is absolutely no reason for Plouffe to be a Twin past yesterday. So, no, arbitration would be ridiculous.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Giving people positions instead of making them earn it is one of the problems with this team. The only year they have had any fight was last year when Torri returned. Given a fair audition Sano would win a job and then Plouffe and Joe fight it out.
 

 

Miguel earned it plenty in the minors.  The notion that you can have someone "earn" it is so misguided.  When is he supposed to do that exactly?  Batting practice?  Team flights?  Other than actually getting to play there for long stretches, how else does he do it?  This isn't football or basketball where you have hundreds of practices you can use to judge players, Sano either plays third or he doesn't.  

 

And, if you already believe Sano is going to win the job, why put him through some faux battle for it?  Plouffe was redundant but our FO over-valued him because of his freaking RBI total.  That's a real thing.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Miguel earned it plenty in the minors.  The notion that you can have someone "earn" it is so misguided.  When is he supposed to do that exactly?  Batting practice?  Team flights?  Other than actually getting to play there for long stretches, how else does he do it?  This isn't football or basketball where you have hundreds of practices you can use to judge players, Sano either plays third or he doesn't.  

 

And, if you already believe Sano is going to win the job, why put him through some faux battle for it?  Plouffe was redundant but our FO over-valued him because of his freaking RBI total.  That's a real thing.

Miguel Sano should have earned his playing time the same way Edgar Martinez... uh, "earned", his playing time.

 

Because that worked out well for everybody involved.

[DocBauer]

I've always liked Plouffe. He's a solid ballplayer. His poor 2016 is a result of injuries. But Sano should never have been thrust to the OF. As stated by others, it messed with the entire makeup of the team. I don't think keeping him was necessarily the problem, however. Assuming there was or wasn't a real market for him, the Twins should have been able to move he and Mauer and Sano in and out between 1B, 3B and DH as they did the last half of 2015.

 

The problem was a jumbled mess after acquiring Park. If you didn't have a plan, then don't go after Park. Especially when you still had Arcia, possibly Vargas, as other DH/role player options. But they went for Park, got him, and then created a jumbled mess.

 

Sano at 3B should be fine. You can examine the careers of former Twins 3B, including Plouffd, and see that it takes time to fully develop defensively. He only has to be solid, and he has the potential for better than that. Very few 3B, or SS for that matter, arrive at the ML level a polished defensive product. Years of observation and a tiny bit of research shows this.

[TheLeviathan]

What are you referring to about Edgar?  That he basically sat around for a huge chunk of his career or am I missing something?

[Rosterman]

 

I've always liked Plouffe. He's a solid ballplayer. His poor 2016 is a result of injuries. But Sano should never have been thrust to the OF. As stated by others, it messed with the entire makeup of the team. I don't think keeping him was necessarily the problem, however. Assuming there was or wasn't a real market for him, the Twins should have been able to move he and Mauer and Sano in and out between 1B, 3B and DH as they did the last half of 2015.

The problem was a jumbled mess after acquiring Park. If you didn't have a plan, then don't go after Park. Especially when you still had Arcia, possibly Vargas, as other DH/role player options. But they went for Park, got him, and then created a jumbled mess.

Sano at 3B should be fine. You can examine the careers of former Twins 3B, including Plouffd, and see that it takes time to fully develop defensively. He only has to be solid, and he has the potential for better than that. Very few 3B, or SS for that matter, arrive at the ML level a polished defensive product. Years of observation and a tiny bit of research shows this.

I would like to see the conversation they ahd when they went after Park.

 

"Let's offer the $12.5 million. Shows we are in the game. Someone else undoubtedly will do the same. We get good press. Can't lose."

 

"Crap, we were the only ones? What happened. No one likes the guy?"

 

"Maybe when can make it NOT happen. Offer enough of a salary and contract that is embarrassing, but no way would he take it. I mean...a couple of million? He could get that in Korea."

 

"He...whaaaaat! Accepted. Okay, we can make it work. We move Sano to the outfield. Let's see if we can sell Vargas to Asia, somewhere. Plouffe will have a big year and be tradable. I mean, this Park guy does hit it out of the Park and a couple of million is a good deal for a guy who should give us, what, 20-25 homers. Homers rule."

 

"What, we need to find a place for Arcia? No big deal, keep him around. Looks like he's coming early to spring training."

 

"Our system is flawless, everything will work out in the end."

[howieramone2]

 

Are the Twins willing to just pay the remainder of 2016 salary on these guys? That would change the trade situation dramatically. This season was expected to be a season of contention and thus the salaries would been accounted for. Now imagine getting 6 prospects back in the 300-600 range to essentially also clear roster space while adding to the depth of the system. Suzuki, Plouffe, Nunez, Abad, Kintzler, and either Escobar or Grossman. Deal.

No it wouldn't.

[howieramone2]

 

The urgency to move him was to avoid the idea of putting Miguel Sano in RF.  We set off a domino effect of poor decisions the moment we decided retaining Trevor Plouffe was a good idea.  

 

I could care less about salary relief, trading Plouffe was basically the only way to save the team from itself.

 

And if there really was zero market for Plouffe (a dubious claim, I'd have taken cash for him) - then don't offer him anything in Arb. and let him walk.

 

This board, this fanbase, and this front office WAY overinflated what Plouffe was because he appeared to be one of the few two-way competent players on a team full of guys that often couldn't do either, much less both.  People thought he'd out produce Donaldson.  People thought we should offer him a QO this offseason.

 

It appears, even still, that our view of Trevor Plouffe still hasn't meshed with reality even if we've come back down just a bit from where we were 9 months ago.  But here's reality: last offseason we should've done whatever it took to get him off the roster.  We still should.

Brooks Sano is 20-25 errors waiting to happen at 3B.  They never had any intention of moving Plouffe last off season. I can see giving Brooks until the end of the season to audition, but keep Nunez as an insurance policy if you move Plouffe.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Brooks Sano is 20-25 errors waiting to happen at 3B.  They never had any intention of moving Plouffe last off season. I can see giving Brooks until the end of the season to audition, but keep Nunez as an insurance policy if you move Plouffe.

 

And yet, reality doesn't agree with you.  If the Twins were that scared of playing Sano at third, he'd be the DH.  

 

What they should've been scared about, and somehow weren't!, is what he'd look like in the OF and how much that would hurt his offense.

 

I agree, they never intended to move Plouffe.  It's one of the many reasons (but perhaps the top of the list) this team is staring a near 100 loss campaign square in the face.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What are you referring to about Edgar? That he basically sat around for a huge chunk of his career or am I missing something?

Just making a quip about how he didn't "earn" MLB playing time until he was 27-28 years old and the Mariners squandered seasons that likely would have put him into the HoF.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Just making a quip about how he didn't "earn" MLB playing time until he was 27-28 years old and the Mariners squandered seasons that likely would have put him into the HoF.

 

Wasn't sure if there was more to that story that I had missed.  But yeah, in baseball you either play or you don't.  There aren't practices for you to "earn" anything.  Young players earn their spot in the minors, not by playing twice a week in some sort of inane competition.

 

But yeah, I'm sure Seattle would love a do over on that decision.  Edgar too.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Just making a quip about how he didn't "earn" MLB playing time until he was 27-28 years old and the Mariners squandered seasons that likely would have put him into the HoF.

I think the Edgar stuff gets overblown. He had crazy good K/BB rates but didn't hit much otherwise until age 24, and that was in the PCL so there was probably a reason to be skeptical. It earned him a cup of coffee, but they made him repeat it at age 25, which he did. At 26 he was more or less in MLB to stay but struggled that year, perhaps had an injury too? He probably should have seen more MLB action at age 25 over the incumbent 3B Jim Presley, but maybe just a half season or so.

 

I won't argue your larger point, though.

[alarp33]

 

What?

 

I literally cannot find a single defensive metric that routinely graded Plouffe below average prior to the 2016 season.

 

12 of 20 qualified 3rd baseman in defensive runs saved and UZR. 

 

Also, my comment was in regards to teams trading for him before 2016 and what they thought.  Ie; projecting his defense going forward, they wouldn't have been trading for his 2013-2015 defense

[old nurse]

 

12 of 20 qualified 3rd baseman in defensive runs saved and UZR. 

 

Also, my comment was in regards to teams trading for him before 2016 and what they thought.  Ie; projecting his defense going forward, they wouldn't have been trading for his 2013-2015 defense

What do the other 10 teams have that cause them to not be included in the mix for above average 3B  If you can't play full time that does not make you below average?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

12 of 20 qualified 3rd baseman in defensive runs saved and UZR. 

 

Also, my comment was in regards to teams trading for him before 2016 and what they thought.  Ie; projecting his defense going forward, they wouldn't have been trading for his 2013-2015 defense

That's cutting a pretty thin line for "average". If Trevor Plouffe was +3 on DRS (a small swing over the course of a season), does that put him "above average"? He'd be in the top ten at that point.

 

I'd consider 12th of 20 qualifiers the very definition of "average" (and he was a virtual tie with Longoria who was ranked 11, also at -1 DRS). Plouffe is near the middle of six players who were +/- 3 DRS last season. In 2014, DRS had Plouffe ranked 10th of out 24 qualifiers. That's also pretty average.

 

And, yes, Plouffe has regressed this season but he's also been fighting injuries off and on. The extent to which he has diminished defensively is still in question. Going forward, it's highly unlikely he suddenly turned into a -15 DRS player overnight (which is his 2016 pace extrapolated over 140-ish games).

 

On top of all that, a full ten teams didn't have a 3B play often enough to even qualify. Those teams count, too.

[alarp33]

 

That's cutting a pretty thin line for "average". If Trevor Plouffe was +3 on DRS (a small swing over the course of a season), does that put him "above average"? He'd be in the top ten at that point.

 

I'd consider 12th of 20 qualifiers the very definition of "average" (and he was a virtual tie with Longoria who was ranked 11, also at -1 DRS). Plouffe is near the middle of six players who were +/- 3 DRS last season. In 2014, DRS had Plouffe ranked 10th of out 24 qualifiers. That's also pretty average.

 

And, yes, Plouffe has regressed this season but he's also been fighting injuries off and on. The extent to which he has diminished defensively is still in question. Going forward, it's highly unlikely he suddenly turned into a -15 DRS player overnight (which is his 2016 pace extrapolated over 140-ish games).

 

On top of all that, a full ten teams didn't have a 3B play often enough to even qualify. Those teams count, too.

 

I'll agree he has regressed, but I think that started last year is all I'm saying.  His range has always been horrible going to his right, and this year it was severely diminished moving to his left as well.  

 

He makes plays that are hit at him generally, I don't think he is a terrible 3rd baseman defensively.  I think he has well below average range, maybe that would've been a better way to put it. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

What do the other 10 teams have that cause them to not be included in the mix for above average 3B  If you can't play full time that does not make you below average?

I wouldn't automatically assume that a non-qualifier was below average.  Average or above-average defenders could have split time, due to platoons, injury, minor league call-ups, and/or utility deployment.

 

If you want to include those teams, it's probably best to look at team totals rather than disregard them as below average.  The Twins ranked 15th in DRS, 18th in UZR for team 3B fielding in 2015.  In 2014, 14th and 10th, in 2013, 23rd and 25th.  Those are the years of Plouffe as exclusive 3B.

 

I'd probably characterize the Twins defense at 3B, with Plouffe as primary 3B, as roughly average.  Could be improved with a better utility/backup option, although Plouffe being on the wrong side of 30 (and having accumulated some injuries himself) could offset that too.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'll agree he has regressed, but I think that started last year is all I'm saying.  His range has always been horrible going to his right, and this year it was severely diminished moving to his left as well.  

 

He makes plays that are hit at him generally, I don't think he is a terrible 3rd baseman defensively.  I think he has well below average range, maybe that would've been a better way to put it. 

That's fair. I think Plouffe is a bit overrated with the glove, at least around these parts. He's a solid glove at third base. In 2014, maybe he was a "soft plus" with the glove.

 

He's very comparable to Dozier. Brian was once a stellar second baseman, now he's just pretty okay.

[alarp33]

 

That's fair. I think Plouffe is a bit overrated with the glove, at least around these parts. He's a solid glove at third base. In 2014, maybe he was a "soft plus" with the glove.

 

He's very comparable to Dozier. Brian was once a stellar second baseman, now he's just pretty okay.

 

Agree 100%.  I think Plouffe found a home at 3rd base, and worked hard to become a so so defender there. This was such a 180 from what he had done previously in his career, at SS, OF, etc.  that it in turn caused people overrate his defense.