No love for FO at the Sporting News

[Kwak]

 

I agree with everything you wrote except the Revere trade. He is not a good player and not missed. Trevor May if used correctly is far more valuable than Revere

Unless Trevor can hit and play a position (say Catcher!), he is being used correctly. Sadly, the results have been dismal this season. However, RPs are known to swing wildly in performance from time-to-time and next year might be stellar for him.

[Thrylos]

I just hope that this ends the mythology and suburban legend that suggests that Terry Ryan, Dave St. Peter, and the Twins front office are "respected" throughout the league and regarded highly "by baseball people".

[Brandon]

I think the Twins did have a plan.  Hughes, Nolasco, Santana, and Gibson are all number 3/4 starters at the time of their signing and Gibson was developed through the farm everyone seems to forget that one.  but the Twins went through a few years of bad drafts and have since accumulated lots of prospects they are starting to bring up and they struggled and a few veterans struggled and a few others were injured.  The mistake I see is the lack of on base percentage in offense.  The Twins formula is average rotation of #3 starters 1-5 and above average bullpen hence the fireballing relievers on the way in the minors. Its coming just not this season.   and the 2nd part is good defense, smart baserunning and above average offense.  that formula gives a winning record.  but slumps of players who should be productive and rookies not ready killed the offense. 

 

but if the pitching picks up and buxton, sano, kepler, Park, improve then they can be a .500 team the second half and build momentum towards next year. 

[theBOMisthebomb]

The FO is the absolute worst in baseball. They brought back Gardy. Case closed.

[jimmer]

I think the Twins did have a plan. Hughes, Nolasco, Santana, and Gibson are all number 3/4 starters at the time of their signing and Gibson was developed through the farm everyone seems to forget that one. but the Twins went through a few years of bad drafts and have since accumulated lots of prospects they are starting to bring up and they struggled and a few veterans struggled and a few others were injured. The mistake I see is the lack of on base percentage in offense. The Twins formula is average rotation of #3 starters 1-5 and above average bullpen hence the fireballing relievers on the way in the minors. Its coming just not this season. and the 2nd part is good defense, smart baserunning and above average offense. that formula gives a winning record. but slumps of players who should be productive and rookies not ready killed the offense.

 

but if the pitching picks up and buxton, sano, kepler, Park, improve then they can be a .500 team the second half and build momentum towards next year.

defense is very bad, rotation is the worst in AL and offense is horrible.not only is it not happening this season, its going to be a few years at earliest.

[alarp33]

We don't know that for sure, do we? We are how many years into the trade now?

 

I mean, i agree, it is likely May is good if allowed to start....but we don't know that for sure.

The post I replied to said the Revere trade was a "miserable failure". Sure, we need to see more from May still. But Revere has been worth something like 6 WAR in the 4.5 years since that trade, getting rid of him hardly qualifies as a miserable failure. I'll take the next 5 years of control with May

[drivlikejehu]

The Angels have the opposite issue as the Twins - their owner is meddlesome. The Angels' actual front office is far superior to the Twins', but the Angels' management is in a tough situation. The Twins' management deals with no interference, in fact Jim Pohlad takes orders from Terry Ryan, so there is no excuse at all. They are just astoundingly incompetent, as I've pointed out, correctly, for many years.

 

 

[alarp33]

Not sure Cub fans would agree with how fast they've been rebuilt.

 

I'm not sure I understand, you think Cubs fans are unhappy that Theo missed the playoffs 3 times, then made an NLCS and now have to cheer for a 43-19 wrecking crew that looks like a dynasty in the making?

[Taildragger8791]

 

The pitching contracts are awful, but the minor league system struggles seem to be too early to call, and that was a large part of the article.

 

And apparently Sporting News considers an .870 OPS for Miguel Sano to be struggling, unless they're factoring in his struggle at a position he's never played before.

 

Sano has clearly produced with the bat, but I think people were expecting more of a well-rounded hitter like Miguel Cabrera as opposed to the boom/bust "three true outcomes" type like Giancarlo Stanton. Obviously you'd be happy with either player, but the prolonged slumps and untimely strikeouts that can accompany the latter player profile are frustrating at times. I think some are still hoping that he shrinks the holes in his swing and brings up the overall average.

[70charger]

I'm not sure I understand, you think Cubs fans are unhappy that Theo missed the playoffs 3 times, then made an NLCS and now have to cheer for a 43-19 wrecking crew that looks like a dynasty in the making?

Don't want to put words in his mouth but pretty sure that was a joke related to the fact that the Cubs haven't won a World Series since before the Great War. I chuckled anyway.

[alarp33]

 

Don't want to put words in his mouth but pretty sure that was a joke related to the fact that the Cubs haven't won a World Series since before the Great War. I chuckled anyway.

 

Ahhh, that would make more sense. 

[mikelink45]

 

The pitching contracts are awful, but the minor league system struggles seem to be too early to call, and that was a large part of the article.

 

And apparently Sporting News considers an .870 OPS for Miguel Sano to be struggling, unless they're factoring in his struggle at a position he's never played before.

I think that they are right on with the assessment - our Minnesota patience might allow us to keep waiting, but other teams do not.  Sano has not hit like last year - whether being in the wrong place - RF - or just struggling, his immense talent continues to give us some good days when healthy, but batters, fielders, pitchers do not reflect the quality that should come from being rated one of the top two farm systems for so many years.

 

[mikelink45]

This does not say anything that many of your readers have been expressing, but at least it is a confirmation.  What else is left this year?

[Craig Arko]

 

This does not say anything that many of your readers have been expressing, but at least it is a confirmation.  What else is left this year?

Christmas.

[Jham]

It's tough for me to be too hard on Ryan for the pitching contracts.  You don't usually get quality starting pitching without overpaying in dollars, years, or both.  Of course you might predict some drop off, but it has been much much more precipitous than anyone would have predicted.  I believe Ryan thought we would have an influx of young pitching by now.  If we didn't have the expensive veteran arms, whose innings are we badly missing?  If Meyer, Berrios, May, had torn it up and progressed I have no doubt they would have supplanted the vets.  But virtually no one other than Duffey for 2 months last year have stepped up.  He should have gotten a catcher?  How far would that get us this year?  If he knew our prospects weren't ready, he should have brought in another outfielder, but it's clear they want to give Buxton a good run if he can be halfway competent at the plate.  Too much is made of the Sano to right field thing.  He's been poor.  Not every experiment will work, but our best shot to repeat or build on last year's success was to have Plouffe, Sano, and Park in the line up.  

Pricey vets and guys hitting option limits is the price of horrible talent evaluation and preparation.  The fact that we still have no idea what we have with Arcia and Santana is tough to swallow.  Both could have brought decent returns a few years ago, and neither was a blue chipper.  An unnerving thought is that we can differentiate between our top prospects and AAAA guys because none of them will be great major leaguers.  If that's the case, Ryan does deserve much of the blame.  But if we're preaching patience with the prospects, we should be patient with the office that brought them in.  

 

For the record, I'm not preaching patience for either.  I think it's past due that our prospects make an impact, and it's absurd that our scouting and coaching can't get more out of and differentiate between true prospects and average minor leaguers without ridiculous major league auditions that plummet the trade value of the prospects we should be looking to move.  

[tobi0040]

It's tough for me to be too hard on Ryan for the pitching contracts.  You don't usually get quality starting pitching without overpaying in dollars, years, or both.  Of course you might predict some drop off, but it has been much much more precipitous than anyone would have predicted.  I believe Ryan thought we would have an influx of young pitching by now.  If we didn't have the expensive veteran arms, whose innings are we badly missing?  If Meyer, Berrios, May, had torn it up and progressed I have no doubt they would have supplanted the vets.  But virtually no one other than Duffey for 2 months last year have stepped up.  He should have gotten a catcher?  How far would that get us this year?  If he knew our prospects weren't ready, he should have brought in another outfielder, but it's clear they want to give Buxton a good run if he can be halfway competent at the plate.  Too much is made of the Sano to right field thing.  He's been poor.  Not every experiment will work, but our best shot to repeat or build on last year's success was to have Plouffe, Sano, and Park in the line up.  

 

Pricey vets and guys hitting option limits is the price of horrible talent evaluation and preparation.  The fact that we still have no idea what we have with Arcia and Santana is tough to swallow.  Both could have brought decent returns a few years ago, and neither was a blue chipper.  An unnerving thought is that we can differentiate between our top prospects and AAAA guys because none of them will be great major leaguers.  If that's the case, Ryan does deserve much of the blame.  But if we're preaching patience with the prospects, we should be patient with the office that brought them in.  

 

For the record, I'm not preaching patience for either.  I think it's past due that our prospects make an impact, and it's absurd that our scouting and coaching can't get more out of and differentiate between true prospects and average minor leaguers without ridiculous major league auditions that plummet the trade value of the prospects we should be looking to move.

I would argue our fascination in the draft with high school outfielders and relief pitchers has played a role in why we needed to go into the free agent market and find starting pitchers. Heck, we used our 2007, 2008, and 2012 first round picks on a CF. Then when we had one of the biggest trade chips in franchise history (Johan), we targeted another CF.

 

And the first round picks we have used on starters were either total whiffs, and/or we aimed for back of the rotation types like Wimmers and Perkins.

[tobi0040]

I agree with everything you wrote except the Revere trade. He is not a good player and not missed. Trevor May if used correctly is far more valuable than Revere

Agreed. Revere has 6 WAR in 6 seasons. A .644 OPS player in a corner OF spot is never going to be a key player on a contender.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Agreed. Revere has 6 WAR in 6 seasons. A .644 OPS player in a corner OF spot is never going to be a key player on a contender.

 

And May has what, exactly, in the last 3-4 years?

[alarp33]

 

And May has what, exactly, in the last 3-4 years?

 

May has 4.5 more years of control, the trade results aren't over

[Mike Sixel]

 

May has 4.5 more years of control, the trade results aren't over

 

So those first three years of zero value don't count?

 

Of course it isn't over.....but so far, it's not like May has been good (no thanks to being moved to the bullpen, but that is where he is....).

[USAFChief]

So those first three years of zero value don't count?

 

Of course it isn't over.....but so far, it's not like May has been good (no thanks to being moved to the bullpen, but that is where he is....).

May was very good in the pen last year, and there are many who claim he was the Twins best starter last yer too.

 

Trading Ben Revere wasn't a mistake.

[alarp33]

 

So those first three years of zero value don't count?

 

Of course it isn't over.....but so far, it's not like May has been good (no thanks to being moved to the bullpen, but that is where he is....).

 

Its more like 1 year (2015) and 4 months (2 in 2014 + 2 in 2016), but sure they count.  May's 2015 was quite a bit more valuable than Revere's 2013, 2014, or 2016.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

Its more like 1 year (2015) and 4 months (2 in 2014 + 2 in 2016), but sure they count.  May's 2015 was quite a bit more valuable than Revere's 2013, 2014, or 2016.  

 

How did Revere compare in 2015? I have no idea, but you left it off. May delivered what WAR in 13 or 14? The years he was in the minors don't count as time he was not adding value? Ok, that's fair.

 

I'm not saying it was a bad trade. I like the trade, but I think giving TR credit for it, when May has, so far, delivered no real value? that seems like an odd conclusion.

 

If they move him back to SP (where he should have stayed)....I think they clearly win the deal. If he stays a RP, and stays getting hurt....well, it is probably a wash at best. 

[alarp33]

 

How did Revere compare in 2015? I have no idea, but you left it off. May delivered what WAR in 13 or 14? The years he was in the minors don't count as time he was not adding value? Ok, that's fair.

 

I'm not saying it was a bad trade. I like the trade, but I think giving TR credit for it, when May has, so far, delivered no real value? that seems like an odd conclusion.

 

If they move him back to SP (where he should have stayed)....I think they clearly win the deal. If he stays a RP, and stays getting hurt....well, it is probably a wash at best. 

 

I think we are saying the same thing here.  I'm not trying to start a toast to Terry Ryan for making this trade, he didn't have a damn CFer ready after trading Revere and Span, and wasn't able to get one thing out of Vance Worley.

 

Simply trying to say Revere stinks, so to call that trade a miserable failure is wrong.  At worst, it's a draw (4th OFer for an avg. middle reliever)... at best, the new GM + Manager realize May could be a nice #3 or 4 starter. 

[bird]

 

That's where I'm at too. I still enjoy this site, and talking baseball with everyone here. But when it comes to actually watching the games, I can't say I've watched a full game in well over a month. 

 

I'm in the same place. Since 1961, which was around the time of Chief's 30th birthday I think, there have been maybe four seasons that I decided the team was virtually unwatchable. Maybe I'll take in a few innings here and there, but only to watch the kids play.

 

The funny thing is, coming into the season, I was feeling less excitement, because I knew there would be a whole bunch of players I simply don't really enjoy watching play baseball. I'll name names: Plouffe, Ervin Santana the Cheater, Mauer, Nolasco, Dozier, Suzuki, Fien, Gibson, Milone, Jepsen...Even some of the young knuckleheads were getting to me, especially Arcia and Rosario with stupid AB's, dumb base running, and sloppy effort in the field.

 

Geez, now that I think about it, who's left? 

[dgwills]

 

I'm not sure I understand, you think Cubs fans are unhappy that Theo missed the playoffs 3 times, then made an NLCS and now have to cheer for a 43-19 wrecking crew that looks like a dynasty in the making?

You'd be surprised at how a lot fan's think. I live in an area with a lot of Cub's fans. A couple years back my co-workers were super upset that the Cub's were not singing big name free agents and losing a ton of games. I had to tell them their new front office cleared their bad contracts, went way over the cap in international signings, and got the best hitter in the draft in Kris Bryant.

Of course they are all happy now, but most fans only look at wins and losses. They don't really understand the process of building a World Series contender.

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

Christmas.

Don't forget St. Swithin's Day. One month from today!

[bird]

 

I wonder how many more years of this before the Terry holdouts stop coming up with excuses for Terry and friends?

 

 

Hey, you should start a thread on this. That's a topic that's gotten short shrift around here. 

[tobi0040]

And May has what, exactly, in the last 3-4 years?

A collection of Ben Revere type value at every position makes for a lousy team. So moving him when we weren't any good for a higher ceiling arm is exactly what we should have done. Those clamoring for a rebuild should not be knocking that move.

 

I also think Revere's WAR is inflated because I don't think dWAR penalizes a player for a weak arm, i.e. runners constantly advancing on them. So Revere's 1 WAR per season is likely a high estimate.

 

As others have pointed out, Revere is making $6.5m this year. $4m last year. $2m the year before.

[Mike Sixel]

 

A collection of Ben Revere type value at every position makes for a lousy team. So moving him when we weren't any good for a higher ceiling arm is exactly what we should have done. Those clamoring for a rebuild should not be knocking that move.

I also think Revere's WAR is inflated because I don't think dWAR penalizes a player for a weak arm, i.e. runners constantly advancing on them. So Revere's 1 WAR per season is likely a high estimate.

As others have pointed out, Revere is making $6.5m this year. $4m last year. $2m the year before.

 

Uh, I'm not knocking the move.....I'm saying that it is a bit hard to declare the Twins the clear winners....especially since they couldn't fix CF for years either.....