NL might grow up!

[biggentleben]

 

But doesn't it seem odd to you in any way that no one seems to be proposing not using the DH and going back to the way things were?  If your assertion is correct then shouldn't there be more fans asking the AL to get rid of the DH?  I don't hear any real talk about that only talk about when the NL will add the DH.

 

Because it'd mean losing members of the players union, and not just members of the union, but typically well-paid members. You'll never get the MLBPA to agree to getting rid of the DH. There's only one way the DH rule can go at this point due to the power of the players' union.

[Dman]

 

Because it'd mean losing members of the players union, and not just members of the union, but typically well-paid members. You'll never get the MLBPA to agree to getting rid of the DH. There's only one way the DH rule can go at this point due to the power of the players' union.

 

While I agree with you and you have more baseball knowledge in your pinky than I do in my entire brain if fans didn't like the DH then I would think it could be negotiated out.  Granted most of the fans I talk to are from the AL but most everyone I talk to likes the DH and see's no reason to get rid of it.  No one I can remember talking to longs for the days when pitchers hit.  Only place I have heard that is on this board.

[biggentleben]

 

It is linear. There are 27 outs per team in a game of baseball. How many of those are divisible by 3?  Why are you arguing this?

 

So here are some numbers for you:

 

The Twins had 6017 plate appearances in 2015. 2125 came with 0 out, or 35.32%. 1996 came with 1 out, or 33.17%. 1896 came with 2 out, or 31.51%.

 

To look at other teams, 2015 had 183628 plate appearances. 63432 were with 0 outs, or 34.54%. 60876 were with 1 out, or 33.15%. and 59320 came with 2 outs, or 32.30%.

 

I know it's a matter of a couple percent, but it's quite unlikely that statistically, any position in the order would come up with 2 outs 33% of the time.

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

While I agree with you and you have more baseball knowledge in your pinky than I do in my entire brain if fans didn't like the DH then I would think it could be negotiated out.  Granted most of the fans I talk to are from the AL but most everyone I talk to likes the DH and see's no reason to get rid of it.  No one I can remember talking to longs for the days when pitchers hit.  Only place I have heard that is on this board.

 

I think you'd be surprised if you went to places like general baseball message boards how split the conversation would be. National League team boards are generally very anti-DH and AL team boards are generally very pro-DH. Heck, John Sickels ended up banning multiple users a few years ago off of his site due to a debate about the DH that got so heated that multiple posters, some of whom had been posters on his site since the early 2000s. 

[nicksaviking]

***Moderators Note***

 

A moderator's note seems utterly pointless as I can't believe that anyone who's posted here the past hour didn't already know they crossed the line whether it was trolling, personal attacks or calling out other posters for violations within the threads.

 

I'm confident we can discuss something as benign as the DH with much less antagonism and fury.

[TheLeviathan]

 

As a former pitcher, I completely support this. Pretty easy to end this BS about who should be hit on the other side when your guy is hit when the pitcher has to face his own justice.

 

Except pitchers don't hit each other.  If that was happening maybe it would stem some of this nonsense (huge maybe)...but that's not what they do.

 

They hit McCutcheon.  Or whomever else is the "star player".  There are far better ways to change this issue - like hitting their pocket books harder or suspending them for more than one game.  The idea that this helps police nonsense just isn't backed up by reality.

[TheLeviathan]

NL fans are of course going to side with pitchers hitting and AL fans against it - largely because all of us debating the issue only know the kind of baseball we've seen played.  To change it one way or the other is a fundamental altering of what we know of as "baseball".  So I don't begrudge anyone that wants to keep it their way, my hope would be to get them to look at it as objectively as possible.

 

What does having pitchers hit add to the game?  They are incompetent hitters who aren't meant to hit - their athletic skill set has made them pitchers over many years.  The strategy around teams removing them from games (to remove their incompetence mind you) is robotic.  The way teams attack 8/9 hitters is robotic as a result.  Multiple times a game an almost automatic out walks to the plate to get struck out.  They jog the bases in goofy jackets, teams tell them that all they want out of their at-bat is to see at least three pitches, and they're routinely called on to bunt themselves out on the off-chance of increasing run scoring.

 

There doesn't seem much more than tradition behind this and people being accustomed to it.  I think it's as good for the league to get rid of it as I think it's good that the Vikings avoid playing Linval Joseph at split end or Teddy Bridgewater at linebacker.  It's time to just say good-bye to it.

[Blake]

My thoughts here: 

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/18517-game-thread-twins-vs-brewers-607-1110-am-pacific-time-110pm-ct-grizzled-veteran-edition/

[biggentleben]

 

Except pitchers don't hit each other.  If that was happening maybe it would stem some of this nonsense (huge maybe)...but that's not what they do.

 

They hit McCutcheon.  Or whomever else is the "star player".  There are far better ways to change this issue - like hitting their pocket books harder or suspending them for more than one game.  The idea that this helps police nonsense just isn't backed up by reality.

 

See, that's where NL baseball is different. Pitchers do get plunked or thrown at fairly frequent. Jose Fernandez took one upstairs the next time he came up after the incident where he threw at Brian McCann with the Braves as a rookie. Julio Teheran took a pitch high and up from the Nationals last season (honestly forgetting which pitcher) when he threw a similar pitch to Bryce Harper late in the season after he "pimped" a home run off of Teheran. Those are two quick ones off the top of my head. It does happen quite a bit in the NL.

[biggentleben]

 

NL fans are of course going to side with pitchers hitting and AL fans against it - largely because all of us debating the issue only know the kind of baseball we've seen played.  To change it one way or the other is a fundamental altering of what we know of as "baseball".  So I don't begrudge anyone that wants to keep it their way, my hope would be to get them to look at it as objectively as possible.

 

What does having pitchers hit add to the game?  They are incompetent hitters who aren't meant to hit - their athletic skill set has made them pitchers over many years.  The strategy around teams removing them from games (to remove their incompetence mind you) is robotic.  The way teams attack 8/9 hitters is robotic as a result.  Multiple times a game an almost automatic out walks to the plate to get struck out.  They jog the bases in goofy jackets, teams tell them that all they want out of their at-bat is to see at least three pitches, and they're routinely called on to bunt themselves out on the off-chance of increasing run scoring.

 

There doesn't seem much more than tradition behind this and people being accustomed to it.  I think it's as good for the league to get rid of it as I think it's good that the Vikings avoid playing Linval Joseph at split end or Teddy Bridgewater at linebacker.  It's time to just say good-bye to it.

 

The Braves in 2015 had one of the most incompetent group of hitting pitchers I can ever remember in my life of watching the team, yet they struck out at a percentage rate that was 0.2% different than Miguel Sano's strikeout rate in 2015. I do think there is some pretty heavy bias in viewing a pitcher hitting by those who have seen nothing but AL games their whole lives so that the other things they do within their at bats are glossed over, because I would nearly guarantee you that not a single Twins fan would have gotten that question correct.

 

Can we change? Yes, but I don't think it's as much a bettering of the game as it is a consistency of the game. Right now there are two sets of rules because of the poor choices of the AL, and that is confusing to casual fans and to those fans who are learning about the game. The conversation with my die-hard, baseball-nut 6 year-old nephew when he asked about the origin of the DH and reasoning behind it left his mind spinning. He simply couldn't understand how the best player on the team (typically the pitcher at his age) wouldn't be allowed to hit. Yet, within 3-5 years (depending on if he jumps leagues for his age), he'll be in a league that implements the DH already for 11-12 year-olds. You want to know why pitchers can't hit? It's because they don't hit, for 7-10 years before they're drafted, then for the 2-5 years of the minor leagues, and then they get to the majors, and we suddenly expect them to figure out what this long wooden stick is supposed to do when put in contact with the white sphere they're used to throwing? C'mon now!

 

I cheer for a National League team, but I love baseball, and all of baseball. I can understand both sides of this discussion, but as a former pitcher, I certainly could not have been comfortable letting someone else take swings for me to back my effort on the mound. It just wouldn't have worked for me. Clayton Kershaw and Madison Bumgarner have mentioned similar things when asked why they work so hard on their pitching. The Braves "big 3" in the 90s used to work for hours on skills with the bat to help push runs across to help their own efforts. My own personal preference when playing would absolutely be to have the pitcher hit.

[clutterheart]

I prefer the NL game and I don't like the DH.  (Unless its Jim Thome)  The strategy of having two guys on and the pitcher on deck is fun to watch.

Without the DH GM's have to manage their rosters better, teams who go out and sign older players to bloated contracts have to pay the defensive price and managers actually have to mange.

 

It would be a bummer if the NL went the way of the AL.  

 

 

[jimmer]

Obviously my favorite team is the Twins but I still manage to watch the NL too and I prefer the Game without a DH.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I prefer the NL game and I don't like the DH.  (Unless its Jim Thome)  The strategy of having two guys on and the pitcher on deck is fun to watch.

Without the DH GM's have to manage their rosters better, teams who go out and sign older players to bloated contracts have to pay the defensive price and managers actually have to mange.

 

It would be a bummer if the NL went the way of the AL.  

 

What's fun? He bunts. Or, they pinch hit with a guy that isn't a good hitter. I'm curious what is fun about it, compared to watching a battle between a paid hitter and a pitcher.

 

From what managers say........that I've read on line........it really isn't that different, because you make the same choice over and over and over.

 

What do you mean "manage their rosters better"? That sounds an awful like an opinion rather than a fact.

[TheLeviathan]

 

See, that's where NL baseball is different. Pitchers do get plunked or thrown at fairly frequent. Jose Fernandez took one upstairs the next time he came up after the incident where he threw at Brian McCann with the Braves as a rookie. Julio Teheran took a pitch high and up from the Nationals last season (honestly forgetting which pitcher) when he threw a similar pitch to Bryce Harper late in the season after he "pimped" a home run off of Teheran. Those are two quick ones off the top of my head. It does happen quite a bit in the NL.

 

I wonder how much of that is perception.  Certainly more NL pitchers get hit, that's sort of a given.  Most of the time the star player eats the pitch, not the pitcher.

 

And even if your perception is true, it's not doing anything to stop the practice.

[jimmer]

Back when bullpens and rotations were smaller, there were more position players available on the bench and more moves could be made. Not sure why it is taking so long to expand rosters.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The Braves in 2015 had one of the most incompetent group of hitting pitchers I can ever remember in my life of watching the team, yet they struck out at a percentage rate that was 0.2% different than Miguel Sano's strikeout rate in 2015. I do think there is some pretty heavy bias in viewing a pitcher hitting by those who have seen nothing but AL games their whole lives so that the other things they do within their at bats are glossed over, because I would nearly guarantee you that not a single Twins fan would have gotten that question correct.

 

You want to know why pitchers can't hit? It's because they don't hit, for 7-10 years before they're drafted, then for the 2-5 years of the minor leagues, and then they get to the majors, and we suddenly expect them to figure out what this long wooden stick is supposed to do when put in contact with the white sphere they're used to throwing? C'mon now!

 

 

I'm not using any heavy bias - the average OPS of pitchers in the NL in 2015 was .317.  That's almost exactly half what Pedro Florimon's OPS was with the Twins a few years back.  I don't care what kind of lipstick you want to put on that pig - .317 OPS is incompetent.  

 

As for your second point, I'd argue the reason pitchers can't hit is the same reason why Teddy Bridgewater can't play linebacker.  Or Zach Parise would make a lousy goaltender.  Those players have shifted away from those positions because their athletic skill set dictates that they can't play those positions at an elite level.  If they're going to perform in an elite league, they should do what got them there.  Not pretend they can do both.  Yes, would they be slightly less incompetent if they had worked on it their entire lives?  Probably.  But you're not going to magically transform every elite pitcher into a competent batter.

 

Some guys were just born pitchers.  Just like some guys were born hitters.  You can't shove a square peg in a round hole.

 

Worse yet, if you were to take this logic to it's fullest - if we're going to force all 9 guys on the field to hit, why aren't we forcing all 9 to pitch too?  Wouldn't that make just as much sense?

[nicksaviking]

 

I prefer the NL game and I don't like the DH.  (Unless its Jim Thome)  The strategy of having two guys on and the pitcher on deck is fun to watch.

 

Fun to watch if you're team is out on the field.

 

 

[Squirrel]

Personally, I don't really care but I think both leagues should play by the same rules, whether it's no DH or DH. Yeah, I know, some say that this is what distinguishes the leagues, and it does, but I think if we are going to have as much inter-league play as we do, it should be the same. I don't think teams should be 'hampered' in any way during the season by being 'forced' to alter their style of play, especially pitchers. While some might argue that's what makes it 'fun' or 'interesting,' or that professionals should be able to adapt, I think it gives a strong advantage to the home teams.

[biggentleben]

 

I'm not using any heavy bias - the average OPS of pitchers in the NL in 2015 was .317.  That's almost exactly half what Pedro Florimon's OPS was with the Twins a few years back.  I don't care what kind of lipstick you want to put on that pig - .317 OPS is incompetent.  

 

As for your second point, I'd argue the reason pitchers can't hit is the same reason why Teddy Bridgewater can't play linebacker.  Or Zach Parise would make a lousy goaltender.  Those players have shifted away from those positions because their athletic skill set dictates that they can't play those positions at an elite level.  If they're going to perform in an elite league, they should do what got them there.  Not pretend they can do both.  Yes, would they be slightly less incompetent if they had worked on it their entire lives?  Probably.  But you're not going to magically transform every elite pitcher into a competent batter.

 

Some guys were just born pitchers.  Just like some guys were born hitters.  You can't shove a square peg in a round hole.

 

Worse yet, if you were to take this logic to it's fullest - if we're going to force all 9 guys on the field to hit, why aren't we forcing all 9 to pitch too?  Wouldn't that make just as much sense?

 

Most of the best players 25 years ago did play a defensive position as well as pitch. Chipper Jones was his team's best pitcher (and considered a 2nd-3rd round talent as a pitcher) as well as their shortstop. Gary Carter has talked about making the tough decision as to whether to be a pitcher or hitter as he entered pro baseball. Going farther back, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron faced each other on the mound in Alabama before they were signed to Negro League contracts. It still happens today, but much less frequently. Andrelton Simmons was nearly equally regarded as a pitcher and a hitter. The Braves draft choice this season, Austin Riley, was higher on most teams' boards as a pitcher than a hitter, yet he's going to be a borderline top 100 prospect in the game as a hitter.

 

These kids don't stop hitting because they're realizing at 11 years old that they have a major league future as a pitcher. They're not hitting because the DH has pushed its way down all the way to youth baseball, and by that point, pitchers no longer hit for themselves. With most colleges and high schools also employing the DH, a youth that is a pitcher will not have hit on the day he pitches for over a decade by the time he gets to the major leagues. He very well may play another position as typically the guys good enough to make it to the majors are the best of the best and are studs at other positions as well in high school and sometimes even in college. However, they haven't had to have the game preparation of picking up a bat in between innings of pitching. That is a big thing to get back used to as a pitcher. I had one summer where I didn't hit for myself, and it is a big change mentally.

 

You also changed the target. You stated that the players struck out as an automatic out. I then countered that with the fact that one of the worst hitting pitching staffs in the big leagues struck out at the same rate as Miguel Sano. Then you come to OBP. I never said they were on base, just that their strikeout rate was probably in line with a lot of the slugging DH's they're replacing at around 25-35%.

[biggentleben]

 

Fun to watch if you're team is out on the field.

 

That's your opinion. This entire discussion is opinion, but it's being railed as fact, and just because there is more populous opinion on an AL team's message board for the integration of DH throughout the league does not mean that the DH being a better option is fact as it has been suggested by some in this discussion.

[biggentleben]

 

Personally, I don't really care but I think both leagues should play by the same rules, whether it's no DH or DH. Yeah, I know, some say that this is what distinguishes the leagues, and it does, but I think if we are going to have as much inter-league play as we do, it should be the same. I don't think teams should be 'hampered' in any way during the season by being 'forced' to alter their style of play, especially pitchers. While some might argue that's what makes it 'fun' or 'interesting,' or that professionals should be able to adapt, I think it gives a strong advantage to the home teams.

 

I think that's by far the biggest argument to have the change happen, and why I'm actually in favor of adding the DH in the NL. I'm not a fan of it by any means, but because the AL screwed up, the game has been played with two different sets of rules for 40 years now, and it's confusing to modern fans why this is so, especially those young fans who cannot fathom the racial divide between the two leagues that existed at the time (oh, to have such innocence!).

 

I sure wish the American League would have had the ability to put aside their bigotry and integrated rather than changing rules of the game and led us to this point, but it's where we're at, and now, I do think you have to have one consistent rule, and with the MLBPA, that won't be getting rid of well-paid DHs.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Most of the best players 25 years ago did play a defensive position as well as pitch. Chipper Jones was his team's best pitcher (and considered a 2nd-3rd round talent as a pitcher) as well as their shortstop. Gary Carter has talked about making the tough decision as to whether to be a pitcher or hitter as he entered pro baseball. Going farther back, Willie Mays and Hank Aaron faced each other on the mound in Alabama before they were signed to Negro League contracts. It still happens today, but much less frequently. Andrelton Simmons was nearly equally regarded as a pitcher and a hitter. The Braves draft choice this season, Austin Riley, was higher on most teams' boards as a pitcher than a hitter, yet he's going to be a borderline top 100 prospect in the game as a hitter.

 

These kids don't stop hitting because they're realizing at 11 years old that they have a major league future as a pitcher. They're not hitting because the DH has pushed its way down all the way to youth baseball, and by that point, pitchers no longer hit for themselves. With most colleges and high schools also employing the DH, a youth that is a pitcher will not have hit on the day he pitches for over a decade by the time he gets to the major leagues. He very well may play another position as typically the guys good enough to make it to the majors are the best of the best and are studs at other positions as well in high school and sometimes even in college. However, they haven't had to have the game preparation of picking up a bat in between innings of pitching. That is a big thing to get back used to as a pitcher. I had one summer where I didn't hit for myself, and it is a big change mentally.

 

You also changed the target. You stated that the players struck out as an automatic out. I then countered that with the fact that one of the worst hitting pitching staffs in the big leagues struck out at the same rate as Miguel Sano. Then you come to OBP. I never said they were on base, just that their strikeout rate was probably in line with a lot of the slugging DH's they're replacing at around 25-35%.

 

No, I didn't change the target - my automatic out comment was in regards to them walking to the plate.  At a .317 OPS - they are basically outs the second they step into the batter's box.  Many of those are by strikeouts or sacrifices.  The point was that they are incompetent hitters.  

 

The rest of what you are talking about are exceptions that prove the rule.  For every one player you point out that could reasonable do both there are, what?  10 that can't?  Maybe more?  I don't know what to say to the idea that you can turn 600+ athletes in the country into multi-dimensional baseball athletes at an elite level.  It's just not realistic in any sport, why we pretend it can be in baseball is beyond me.  

 

I don't want to see pitchers hit any more than I want to see hitters pitch.  And I definitely don't understand why we insist on doing one and not the other.

[biggentleben]

 

No, I didn't change the target - my automatic out comment was in regards to them walking to the plate.  At a .317 OPS - they are basically outs the second they step into the batter's box.  Many of those are by strikeouts or sacrifices.  The point was that they are incompetent hitters.  

 

The rest of what you are talking about are exceptions that prove the rule.  For every one player you point out that could reasonable do both there are, what?  10 that can't?  Maybe more?  I don't know what to say to the idea that you can turn 600+ athletes in the country into multi-dimensional baseball athletes at an elite level.  It's just not realistic in any sport, why we pretend it can be in baseball is beyond me.  

 

I don't want to see pitchers hit any more than I want to see hitters pitch.  And I definitely don't understand why we insist on doing one and not the other.

 

Seriously. You changed nothing, addressed nothing I stated. This is something that EVERYONE did for years and years, not just the elite athletes in the game. However, at this point, we're talking past one another, not to one another.

[Dman]

 

I think that's by far the biggest argument to have the change happen, and why I'm actually in favor of adding the DH in the NL. I'm not a fan of it by any means, but because the AL screwed up, the game has been played with two different sets of rules for 40 years now, and it's confusing to modern fans why this is so, especially those young fans who cannot fathom the racial divide between the two leagues that existed at the time (oh, to have such innocence!).

 

I sure wish the American League would have had the ability to put aside their bigotry and integrated rather than changing rules of the game and led us to this point, but it's where we're at, and now, I do think you have to have one consistent rule, and with the MLBPA, that won't be getting rid of well-paid DHs.

 

I don't really know the history of all the reason's the AL split with the NL on the DH but to call it a mistake or that they screwed up seems disingenuous, as it seems like it has been extremely successful and good for the sport.

 

It is good for pitchers because they focus on what they do best.  It is especially good for older hitters as they can extend their careers through the DH.  It  is good for the players union as it allows players to extend careers and make more money.  It is good for the fans who get to see more exciting match ups between pitcher and batter.  There are so many, many positives to the DH it seems a win, win, win for everyone.  

 

If it is was a screw up it may have been baseballs best screw up ever.

[biggentleben]

 

I don't really know the history of all the reason's the AL split with the NL on the DH but to call it a mistake or that they screwed up seems disingenuous, as it seems like it has been extremely successful and good for the sport.

 

It is good for pitchers because they focus on what they do best.  It is especially good for older hitters as they can extend their careers through the DH.  It  is good for the players union as it allows players to extend careers and make more money.  It is good for the fans who get to see more exciting match ups between pitcher and batter.  There are so many, many positives to the DH it seems a win, win, win for everyone.  

 

If it is was a screw up it may have been baseballs best screw up ever.

 

The American League instituted the designated hitter rule primarily because they were falling so far behind the National League in All Star Games and national fan interest due to the integration of African American ballplayers into the National League and the exciting brand of baseball they were playing. Stars like Aaron, Mays, and Robinson were all National League guys, and the American League was very hesitant as a whole to integrate. This began hurting the AL's finances, and they were desperate to find anything to turn that around. When the NL rejected the proposal, the AL went ahead with it anyway, creating the split in league rules to attempt to fix their years of bigotry and racism. To have two sets of rules is not positive for the sport, as we've found for 40 years now, whether it's added excitement or energy or whatever to the game for some subset of fans.

[old nurse]

 

I'd counter that with that pitchers were much better hitters before the DH.

Check league average for pitcher batting average. You are correct, the last few years the pitchers average about .135. In the 60's it was about .145

[TheLeviathan]

 

Seriously. You changed nothing, addressed nothing I stated. This is something that EVERYONE did for years and years, not just the elite athletes in the game. However, at this point, we're talking past one another, not to one another.

 

I don't dispute that baseball pitchers are focusing less on hitters at a younger age - I dispute that it makes a difference.  If you think focusing on both is going to give us a future baseball athlete elite at both pitching and hitting I'd call that notion a pipedream at best.  

 

Focusing on both might make them slightly better hitters at the expense of being better pitchers.  I don't know, but I don't think Ervin Santana is suddenly going to OPS .600 because he picks up a bat more often.  

 

You still haven't addressed why you aren't marching Freddie Freeman out to pitch the fourth if it's so important for guys to do both.

[TheLeviathan]

Check league average for pitcher batting average. You are correct, the last few years the pitchers average about .135. In the 60's it was about .145

So that's what we'd gain back? Slightly less incompetence?

 

If the argument is that we need to return to the glory days, this evidence doesn't help that cause.

[GACbaseball]

You still haven't addressed why you aren't marching Freddie Freeman out to pitch the fourth if it's so important for guys to do both.

My argument for this is that Freddie Freeman doesn't need pitch because he is playing first base. I think that anyone with a glove should hit, not everyone with a bat should have to pitch.

 

I know no one will ever change your mind about thinking that it is a waste of everyone's time and outs to have pitchers bat when a more productive player could take their turn in the order. I am just hoping by the end of this discussion everyone will have more respect for the other side of the argument.

 

I am a Twins fan through and through and have grown up watching the DH. I just prefer the dynamics of the sport without the DH, with late-game management being more interesting to me and worth giving up 1 or 2 at-bats per game of not having the best possible hitter at the plate.

[TheLeviathan]

My argument for this is that Freddie Freeman doesn't need pitch because he is playing first base. I think that anyone with a glove should hit, not everyone with a bat should have to pitch..

What's the meaningful distinction if I just say this: everyone with a glove should hit and pitch.

 

The only reasonable answer is that not everyone with a glove can pitch well enough, that's why they play elsewhere. I'd simply suggest the same logic works to your argument: not everyone with a glove hits well enough to bat, that's why they're a pitcher.