NL might grow up!

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I do like having the pitchers in the lineup who take it seriously and I like the additional strategies around the double switch. I like having the leagues different. Seems like an inevitability, however.

[TheLeviathan]

 

However, baseball made a rule that said pitchers DON'T have to hit (not that they do, as the standard that every player playing the game hits was standard part of the basics of the game from the inception of the concept of the game, just as the idea of a player shooting a free throw after being fouled was part of the basics of the game, unless a rule changes that). So, a rule was required to STOP pitchers from hitting, not to allow it.

 

I highly doubt with the way sports are changing that we would have avoided pitchers specializing in pitching.  The implementation of the DH isn't the only reason we've seen that reduction, athletes in general try now more than ever to hone their particular craft.  We're not going to go back to the Babe Ruth days, things are what they are and as it is now - what possible justification is there for continuing to march up automatic outs?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I've never used the "we've always done it this way" fallacy, I just personally enjoy the late game strategy that comes with NL baseball that just doesn't with AL and the DH. Pinch hitting, bunting, decisions on when to take out a pitcher for a hitter in a RISP situation if they are dealing, and the need for a deep bench are all things that have much more importance in the NL, which I like more than having one extra hitter in the lineup

 

The price of that strategy (which others have pointed out is basically more like a recycled routine) is an abyss of offense every 9 turns.  All the "positives" people point out are only required because of one massive negative suck-hole of hitting every nine turns.  Proponents of pitchers batting just overlook that to stress what they like.

[Willihammer]

 

The price of that strategy (which others have pointed out is basically more like a recycled routine) is an abyss of offense every 9 turns.  All the "positives" people point out are only required because of one massive negative suck-hole of hitting every nine turns.  Proponents of pitchers batting just overlook that to stress what they like.

You could say that about every batter really.  "Game of failure," etc. Not just replying to you but some in this thread are overstating the difference between a pitcher and DH.

 

2015 DH OBP: .334

2015 Pitchers OBP: .158

 

The difference is about one hit/walk per game. Is that really damaging your experience? I think the greater expectation of failure just makes the successes that much sweeter. And then of course there are the double switches, sac bunting, etc that add their own dynamics to the game.

 

Also, re: intentionally walking the #8 hitter, that is overblown too:

NL IBBs in 2015: 552

AL IBBs in 2015: 399

[biggentleben]

It's really a negligible difference in a per game basis. If you want to know why the NL has been decimated by the AL in interleague, I have a pair of very good alternative explanations for you - expansion and realignment.

 

Expansion teams traditionally are much weaker teams initially, and they frequently dilute the pitching of the overall league, causing a rise in overall offensive numbers. The issue that is not often reflected is that those expansion teams carry very weak lineup themselves for multiple years as they build up a roster and farm system to sustain a workable major league lineup.

 

In 1993, two expansion teams were added...to the National League. This was just prior to interleague beginning, and while these teams certainly were competitive quickly, the effect on other teams in the league in bringing down competitive level was certainly felt. In 1998, you have another expansion, adding yet another expansion team to the National League and one to the American League.

 

The 1998 expansion brought with it realignment. The Milwaukee Brewers, who had been a team to win 92 games in 1992 just before interleague, moved to the National League at a time when the franchise was in a tailspin. From 2001-2004, the Brewers went on a 4-year run of losing at least 94 games each season, and their first season over .500 in the National League was a full decade after being added to the NL. Of course, we all saw the recent realignment. The Astros, after a full decade since the last time they won 90 games and 9 years since they made the playoffs, moved to the AL, and within 2 years, they were in the playoffs for the American League. Really, it's dumb luck as much as anything with both cases on realignment, but it certainly impacted the numbers.

 

It's one big reason why I'd never utilize interleague numbers in any way as an argument for nor against the DH. They're not a good measuring stick as the league has been changing quite a bit and unevenly between the two leagues in that time.

[Mike Sixel]

It is super boring watching pitchers hit 3-4 times a game. No amount of super exciting managing can offset that (of which, that excitement is greatly exaggerated, since nearly every game it is the same exact decision over and over).

[TheLeviathan]

 

2015 DH OBP: .334

2015 Pitchers OBP: .158

 

200 points of OBP is also the difference between Bryce Harper and Torii Hunter.   Or Garret Jones.  Or 2015 Byron Buxton.

 

So, no, I would consider that a rather large difference over the course of time.

[biggentleben]

 

It is super boring watching pitchers hit 3-4 times a game. No amount of super exciting managing can offset that (of which, that excitement is greatly exaggerated, since nearly every game it is the same exact decision over and over).

 

But I also think it's super boring watching guys who have the agility of a furniture truck strike out 3 out of 4 at bats as well. If I wanted to watch rec league softball, I'd go to the softball park on Wednesday nights and do that. I'd like to see a game featuring the best athletes in the world playing baseball.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

This issue is clearly a matter of taste.

 

It is super boring watching pitchers hit 3-4 times a game. No amount of super exciting managing can offset that (of which, that excitement is greatly exaggerated, since nearly every game it is the same exact decision over and over).

 

Exciting in an intellectual sense, perhaps. I'd bet that when the DH comes to the NL, NL managers will sit there the whole game feeling they have no more in-game managing to do.  

 

what possible justification is there for continuing to march up automatic outs?

So in other words, pitchers OBP is .000? Glad Willihammer fact checked that for us.

[TheLeviathan]

 

But I also think it's super boring watching guys who have the agility of a furniture truck strike out 3 out of 4 at bats as well. 

 

You do realize this is a 99% true statement for pitchers too....right?  The only difference is that those DH guys actually get a hit or a homerun in-between the strikeouts rather than a sacrifice bunt.

 

Yes, this is a matter of taste, but I always kind of chuckle at how far NL guys will go to dress up the reality of pitchers hitting.  Maybe you just have to not see it every day to realize how putrid it really is when you are forced to see it again.

[biggentleben]

 

You do realize this is a 99% true statement for pitchers too....right?  The only difference is that those DH guys actually get a hit or a homerun in-between the strikeouts rather than a sacrifice bunt.

 

Yes, this is a matter of taste, but I always kind of chuckle at how far NL guys will go to dress up the reality of pitchers hitting.  Maybe you just have to not see it every day to realize how putrid it really is when you are forced to see it again.

 

Or maybe there's just not that much difference between the Rey Ordonez and Andrelton Simmons level players of the world and a pitcher at the plate, so you recognize that what they do with a bat in their hand is not why they're on the field. Similarly, I don't know of any team who has ever signed a lead running back because of his blocking ability. It's something that's part of his game, most running backs suck at it, which is why the ones who don't are actually notable. However, no one's advocating changing the rules to allow for an additional lineman to be allowed to line up in the back field. There are rules against that, in fact, requiring a player in a certain number range to declare his position if he won't be within the tackle box or covered up. We watch all of our sports understanding that we are seeing the excellence in athletes as well as their shortcomings, not trying to cover up any shortcoming they may have.

[TheLeviathan]

 

We watch all of our sports understanding that we are seeing the excellence in athletes as well as their shortcomings, not trying to cover up any shortcoming they may have.

 

This isn't just about shortcomings.  This is like asking someone to go up to pay QB left-handed.  Or asking a nose tackle to run a fly route.  It's deliberately highlighting their shortcoming multiple times a game.  

 

DH's aren't perfect, no one is asking for that.  We don't need to watch perfect players, but we should at least watch competent ones.  Many of the pitchers we see hit would barely suffice as beer league softball players.  

[Dman]

No need to make up basketball analogies as there are real world examples.  Basketball got so boring with with zone defenses etc that they implemented a shot clock and made them play man to man defense.  So Basketball gave the people what they wanted which is more action and offense.  I am sure the basketball purists were upset but the game is incredibly popular now.

 

There is a reason there is a mighty Casey story we all want a guy up who can hit  a home run not a pitcher and a double switch.  I think we need to move beyond the baseball purists and find more ways to make baseball more interesting.  You can see by this thread that DH is the more popular option as no one is promoting going back the other way.  It is time for baseball to evolve and especially the NL.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

This isn't just about shortcomings.  This is like asking someone to go up to pay QB left-handed.  Or asking a nose tackle to run a fly route.  It's deliberately highlighting their shortcoming multiple times a game.  

 

DH's aren't perfect, no one is asking for that.  We don't need to watch perfect players, but we should at least watch competent ones.  Many of the pitchers we see hit would barely suffice as beer league softball players.  

You are of course correct on this issue, as I don't believe any minor league pitcher, AL or NL, is required to hit anymore, at any minor league level. 

 

But I'd bet its more because pitchers don't put any effort into hitting, than to them being a different species of baseball player.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I don't mind having pitchers in the line up. I'm also a guy who doesn't mind a 2-1 pitching duel night after night (no more 3:30 hour games!), so the "easy out" doesn't bother me as much. Call me a purist. Obviously the NL will come around to the DH sooner or later, all the more reason to watch NL baseball while it's still NL baseball and watch guys like Bumgarner when they come to the plate.

[TheLeviathan]

 

You are of course correct on this issue, as I don't believe any minor league pitcher, AL or NL, is required to hit anymore, at any minor league level. 

 

But I'd bet its more because pitchers don't put any effort into hitting, than to them being a different species of baseball player.

 

Right, but part of that is because they've been identified as a much superior pitcher.  Nose tackles are amazing athletes, but we don't run them on vertical routes so they are "well rounded" - we have them do what their athletic skill set is best suited for.  

 

Marching pitchers out to hit is no less absurd than marching hitters out to pitch.  Guys are hitters for a reason.  Guys are pitchers for a reason.  Trying to make them do both is just unnecessary.

[nicksaviking]

Right, but part of that is because they've been identified as a much superior pitcher.  Nose tackles are amazing athletes, but we don't run them on vertical routes so they are "well rounded" - we have them do what their athletic skill set is best suited for.  

 

Marching pitchers out to hit is no less absurd than marching hitters out to pitch.  Guys are hitters for a reason.  Guys are pitchers for a reason.  Trying to make them do both is just unnecessary.

And goalies shouldn't be taking shots in a shootout.

 

Wait, that I actually would like to see, unlike pitchers hitting.

[biggentleben]

 

You can see by this thread that DH is the more popular option as no one is promoting going back the other way.  It is time for baseball to evolve and especially the NL.

 

I find it completely unsurprising that on a message board for an AL team that the majority would support the DH. I will tell you that the same discussion on a Braves forum recently was fervently in the other direction, and not just from the "old baseball purists", but from the teens and 20-somethings on the forum as well.

[biggentleben]

 

Right, but part of that is because they've been identified as a much superior pitcher.  Nose tackles are amazing athletes, but we don't run them on vertical routes so they are "well rounded" - we have them do what their athletic skill set is best suited for.  

 

Marching pitchers out to hit is no less absurd than marching hitters out to pitch.  Guys are hitters for a reason.  Guys are pitchers for a reason.  Trying to make them do both is just unnecessary.

 

And guys are shortstops for a...wait, no, we still force them to hit...

[dgwills]

I always feel bad for the number 8 hitter. He just knows he's not going to see great pitches with 2 outs. I'd assume thats about 1/3 of the time.  

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

And guys are shortstops for a...wait, no, we still force them to hit...

 

No one forces them to hit but the team that decides to play them if they're a bad hitter.  And even if they are a bad hitter, let's look at the actual numbers of this comparison you keep trotting out:

 

 Simmons is .170 points of OBP better than the average pitcher.  The average pitcher OPS is 317 - meaning Simmons is roughly twice as good at that.

 

So you really think that's anywhere near the same thing?  Pedro Florimon here in MN was still .300 points better than the average pitcher.  It's just a really poor argument to think you can compare any weak hitting position player to a pitcher and think it's even in the same ballpark. It's not.  Even the worst hitters blow away the average pitchers.  There's a word for that:  incompetent.

 

It's akin to a nose tackle on a fly pattern.  The only thing well rounded about that is the NT's waist line.  And yet the NL is doing that every game with a bunch of stiffs with a stick.

[biggentleben]

 

I always feel bad for the number 8 hitter. He just knows he's not going to see great pitches with 2 outs. I'd assume thats about 1/3 of the time.  

 

Really? You think any one position in the order comes to the plate with 2 outs 1/3 of the time? That's pretty incredible.

[jimmer]

I like the NL style of play myself.  I like the strategy that can be used.

 

I also like it when cowardly pitchers, who hit batters on purpose because of some perceived slight, have to face the music in the batter's box himself..

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

I like the NL style of play myself.  I like the strategy that can be used.

 

I also like it when cowardly pitchers, who hit batters on purpose because of some perceived slight, have to face the music in the batter's box himself..

 

As a former pitcher, I completely support this. Pretty easy to end this BS about who should be hit on the other side when your guy is hit when the pitcher has to face his own justice.

[Dman]

 

I find it completely unsurprising that on a message board for an AL team that the majority would support the DH. I will tell you that the same discussion on a Braves forum recently was fervently in the other direction, and not just from the "old baseball purists", but from the teens and 20-somethings on the forum as well.

 

Very true I am used to watching teams with the DH and obviously have come to enjoy that element.  So I can see people clinging to what they are used to.  Having said that most sports who have changed rules seem to have made their sports better.  I like the changes basketball made.  Adding the shot clock creates new challenges for the teams and makes them play faster with new and different strategies.  Adding the three point shot forces defenses to play further out and again creates different strategies for offense and defense.  

 

The DH has a tendency to create more offense and excitement when those batters come up which like the changes in basketball I think enhances the sport. Everyone has their opinion and I respect that but given that the DH is being talked about being implemented in the NL I think is an admission that the DH is appealing to a large amount of the fan base.

[biggentleben]

 

Very true I am used to watching teams with the DH and obviously have come to enjoy that element.  So I can see people clinging to what they are used to.  Having said that most sports who have changed rules seem to have made their sports better.  I like the changes basketball made.  Adding the shot clock creates new challenges for the teams and makes them play faster with new and different strategies.  Adding the three point shot forces defenses to play further out and again creates different strategies for offense and defense.  

 

The DH has a tendency to create more offense and excitement when those batters come up which like the changes in basketball I think enhances the sport. Everyone has their opinion and I respect that but given that the DH is being talked about being implemented in the NL I think is an admission that the DH is appealing to a large amount of the fan base.

 

No, I think more than anything, it's an admission that it's extremely confusing to the casual fan why there are different rules in different parks for interleague games. My wife was confused in our road trip last summer why certain games had the pitcher hitting and certain ones didn't. Implementing the DH in one league never should have happened, but once again, the AL was too bull-headed to actually make efforts in race relations rather than simply make a one-sided overhaul to the game in order to change their revenues.

[dgwills]

 

Really? You think any one position in the order comes to the plate with 2 outs 1/3 of the time? That's pretty incredible.

Uh.. There's 3 options. 0,1, and 2. Other than the first few hitters of the game any option is as likely as the other.  What's incredible about that?

[biggentleben]

 

Uh.. There's 3 options. 0,1, and 2. Other than the first few hitters of the game any option is as likely as the other.  What's incredible about that?

 

Because that's assuming it's all linear. I think you'd be surprised how much better the pitches an 8 hitter sees. In general, more strikes at least.

[Dman]

 

No, I think more than anything, it's an admission that it's extremely confusing to the casual fan why there are different rules in different parks for interleague games. My wife was confused in our road trip last summer why certain games had the pitcher hitting and certain ones didn't. Implementing the DH in one league never should have happened, but once again, the AL was too bull-headed to actually make efforts in race relations rather than simply make a one-sided overhaul to the game in order to change their revenues.

 

But doesn't it seem odd to you in any way that no one seems to be proposing not using the DH and going back to the way things were?  If your assertion is correct then shouldn't there be more fans asking the AL to get rid of the DH?  I don't hear any real talk about that only talk about when the NL will add the DH.

[dgwills]

 

Because that's assuming it's all linear. I think you'd be surprised how much better the pitches an 8 hitter sees. In general, more strikes at least.

It is linear. There are 27 outs per team in a game of baseball. How many of those are divisible by 3?  Why are you arguing this?