Can we put down the pitchforks?

[Twins7]

You cannot judge the FO on future scenarios

 

It is 'what have you done for me lately", and for the Twins the "lately" has been since 1992.  

 

Look at Boston for example.  Look at the Tigers for example. This is how winning franchises deal when expectations are not met.

Ha, fair enough. Perhaps TR isn't the guy. I don't know. Based purely on W/L he definitely isn't the guy. Maybe Ive wasted too much breath defending him. One could drive him or herself crazy scrutinizing the rationale for and against every move... So much nuance. I don't envy TR in the slightest.

 

Hell, enough with this for me; my head hurts. I'm just excited to see what Sano and Buxton will do for us, TR or no TR.

[Jham]

What happened to your argument about saving us money?

 

And yes, appearances matter. Like, say, when a GM, whose team is holding down a playoff spot, does nothing to help his team at the deadline?. How do you think the whole team, young and old, feel about that? Think they'll wonder about that when it's contract time. Hunter did. Santana did.

 

I am sure the young players are concerned with their future contracts, but those are also a long ways out. I'm sure Buxton's bigger concern is about getting on and staying on the 25 man roster as opposed to being service timed by the team.

 

And yes, cherry picking. I am talking about evaluating them on what they have done the whole season for our team. When did I point out just their bad months in our discussion? I'm talking whole season of work which includes the good and the bad.

 

As far as Hunter. You want to say it was a good signing. That paying him 10M (which is an overpay, BTW) was a good idea and then also say we should have limited the playing time for a guy we are paying 10M to? That's very confusing. You pay a guy 10M, you should expect him to be able to play a full season. If he can't, maybe it wasn't a good signing.

Not meaning this as any sort of slight. I respect your baseball opinions, but i sort of think you're making my point about not being able to give credit. You conceded that the moves saved money. The Pohlads may be cheap, but they're somewhat forth coming about the self imposed salary cap. Saving money matters IF you do something with the savings. Which I've admitted, he hasn't done enough with them... yet?

[jimmer]

 

Not meaning this as any sort of slight. I respect your baseball opinions, but i sort of think you're making my point about not being able to give credit. You conceded that the moves saved money. The Pohlads may be cheap, but they're somewhat forth coming about the self imposed salary cap. Saving money matters IF you do something with the savings. Which I've admitted, he hasn't done enough with them... yet?

I have given credit to Ryan for things. For example,  I like how many youngsters came up this year.  I would like a couple more, but that might just be greedy.  I actually liked the Dozier signing, because I am a big fan of his and have been since before he was in the majors, but he was going to be with us the same amount of time even if he went to arbitration for three years.  If Ryan had bought out some years, that would have been a good move, IMO. I was against the Hunter signing.  I thought it was an overpay.  I get the PR part, the ticket sales, the narrative, the whole thing, but I don't care about that (but I get why the team does, he's a money maker). What I care about is putting the best team possible on the field and/or trying to play for the future.  With this team, those should go hand in hand. Hunter's season numbers/play show it was a bad signing. And if he has to be rested in order to perform, it makes the signing even more suspect.

 

The saving money part, money isn't this team's problem and contracts will come off the book before big money is, hopefully, needed for the kids we hope become stars.  I would rather given Ryan credit for things I actually think he deserves credit for.  I try to do so.  Right now, I think the good is well overshadowed by the bad.

[h2oface]

 

I would like to see everyone who hates Terry Ryan and the front office try to take on the job. Any of you seriously think you could do a better job? I doubt it.

I do I do............. absolutely. Right now, for instance, Tulo would be at short and Kazmir and Liriano would be in the rotation, and the bullpen would look more like Kansas City's because I would have actually done something about it last off season..... Hughes wouldn't have been extended yet if at all, or Suzuki; Pelfrey and Nolasco and Santana never would have been signed........ I never would have left money the owner said I could spend on the table year after year........Gardenhire and Anderson would have been gone after 2012 for sure, maybe 2011..... Berrios would have started last Friday......yes...... I will take the job. Can I have it?

[Blackjack]

 

Sorry, but in order for us to know for sure that what you are saying in bold is true, Ryan would actually have to do something somewhat bold at a trade deadline.  Since he has NEVER done that, and likely never will, it's pure speculation.

I'll stand by my 'damned if they do, damned if they don't assertion'. Forget the bold move, even trading for Jepson, a guy that is better than a lot of their other relievers and is under contract for next year, was roundly booed here on TD, lots of posters thought too much was given up.

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

[nicksaviking]

 

Let me ask a hypothetical question, in good spirit, on how we should judge the front office. Just a fun thought experiment, I really don't intend to challenge anyone.

The twins continue to lose this year, and finish below .500. Let's say that the twins don't make any major moves next year, and stick with the youngsters, who have varying levels of success. The twins go .500, and stick with TR for another year (again hypothetical scenario). In 2017, Sano breaks out for a 950-1000 ops with 45 HRs, buxton steals 40 bases and wins a batting title, and berrios pitches 200 innings at a 2.00 era. Guys like Rosario, hicks, dozier, Arcia, Kepler, Hughes, Gibson, and may have above average seasons in at least one or two facets of the game. Perhaps we hide turner on the bench, or sign a FA C. But we win the World Series in 2017.

We all will undoubtedly have differing opinions as to the likelihood of this sort of scenario (which might play into our "positions" on the FO, if we have one). Just for the sake of argument, ignore the likelihood of this scenario playing out. Would you say that the FO has been successful in its rebuild, even if it took 7 years? I think that you could argue either way... I think it depends on your own opinion of what success is for a baseball franchise.

 

I originally wanted to roll with the youngsters, that's what I wanted.  Ryan went out and bogged down the roster with unmovable bloated contracts to vets. 

 

I truely hope Ryan does want to move forward with youngsters, he still gets a D in my book for handicapping the process with tons of aging and declining vets.  It's another reason I say he's indecisive.  He wants a team full of experince, yet also doesn't want to trade away the prospects.  He seems to struggle commiting to one path or the other.  You could combine the youth and experience, but not very well if most of your experience is on long term deals.

[bird]

 

I'll stand by my 'damned if they do, damned if they don't assertion'. Forget the bold move, even trading for Jepson, a guy that is better than a lot of their other relievers and is under contract for next year, was roundly booed here on TD, lots of posters thought too much was given up.

 

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

 

Respectfully, blackjack, I think a lot of the criticism regarding Jepson was honest, and not what you're

describing here. It was entirely reasonable for some to believe his acquisition wasn't going far enough, and for others to think it was an overpay, or both. I really believe that the "damned if you do or don't" comments are the exception around here, not the rule.

[Blackjack]

 

Respectfully, blackjack, I think a lot of the criticism regarding Jepson was honest, and not what you're

describing here. It was entirely reasonable for some to believe his acquisition wasn't going far enough, and for others to think it was an overpay, or both. I really believe that the "damned if you do or don't" comments are the exception around here, not the rule.

Lets see, the Twins had managers and scouts in their own system watching the two players traded, scouts watching relievers on other teams, Twins management were the people on the phones talking to other teams regarding possible trades for relievers, and what it was going to take to trade for them, and you're telling me that a bunch of impatient, gotta win now bloggers know more about the trade value of relievers than Twins management and scouts that have years in the business?? Really??!!!!

 

You also know that it takes years before a trade can be fairly judged.  I read this morning that Jepson might be the interim closer.  If he's lights out the rest of the year -- successful trade!!! If he sucks - bad trade!!  If one of the two prospects develops into Cy Young -- bad trade!!! If neither makes the majors -- good trade!! 

 

To be fair, we won't know if its a good trade or a bad trade for years to come.

[brvama]

Yes the daily diatribe of the ineptitude of TR and the FO gets old. And I cannot defend all the moves, or lack of, that have been made. I do enjoy reading reasonable criticism however. And as has been suggested I ignore those that can't or won't.

 

IMO much of this angst can be placed on one thing, the patience of TR, as Twins7 so aptly stated. After years of horrible baseball and the hope of the first half of this season, many of us were thinking the corner had been turned. We lost sight of the weakness that were there, at least many of us did.

 

Fact is that the Twins are a ways away yet. In many ways this is playing out as we had hoped in last winter. The prospects are getting the experience, the record has improved, and the culture of losing is changing. Still things to do yet. While I was disappointed at the deadline, I'm reserving my judgment til next spring to see what moves are made to bolster this team.

 

As tough as it is to be feel good about this year with the team falling back to earth, it is progress and maybe the plan is yet in place. One has to admit that since the ASG the players, especially the SP, have not performed. Is that on the FO or the players?

[twinsnorth49]

 

Lets see, the Twins had managers and scouts in their own system watching the two players traded, scouts watching relievers on other teams, Twins management were the people on the phones talking to other teams regarding possible trades for relievers, and what it was going to take to trade for them, and you're telling me that a bunch of impatient, gotta win now bloggers know more about the trade value of relievers than Twins management and scouts that have years in the business?? Really??!!!!

 

You also know that it takes years before a trade can be fairly judged.  I read this morning that Jepson might be the interim closer.  If he's lights out the rest of the year -- successful trade!!! If he sucks - bad trade!!  If one of the two prospects develops into Cy Young -- bad trade!!! If neither makes the majors -- good trade!! 

 

To be fair, we won't know if its a good trade or a bad trade for years to come.

Personally I'm not bent out of shape or critical of the trade based on who the Twins gave up, I was bent out of shape that this is all they felt they needed to do.  Whether the Twins end up winning or losing in this trade down the line is irrelevant to me, the fact they viewed adding Jepsen this year as a win and left it at that was disappointing.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 One has to admit that since the ASG the players, especially the SP, have not performed. Is that on the FO or the players?

 

Both.

 

Like it or not, the FO is responsible for player performance (in part) because they are the ones that chose to put them on the roster.  It's not always fair, but that's part of the job.

[gil4]

 

What the heck would Ryan be able to trade for elite talent?  I watched the whole comedy over the Tulo trade suggestions:  i.e.  If you bundle enough stuff, you'll get Tulo.    

 

The Twins certainly had the minor league talent available to top the winning bid for Tulo, without gutting the system.  There was no Reyes on the roster to send back, but I'm pretty sure that was more about dumping salary and creating roster space for the Jays than creating value for the Rockies.  Including Reyes probably increased the level of prospects required.

[nicksaviking]

 

Lets see, the Twins had managers and scouts in their own system watching the two players traded, scouts watching relievers on other teams, Twins management were the people on the phones talking to other teams regarding possible trades for relievers, and what it was going to take to trade for them, and you're telling me that a bunch of impatient, gotta win now bloggers know more about the trade value of relievers than Twins management and scouts that have years in the business?? Really??!!!!

 

 

To be fair to those who wanted to A ) a get better relief upgrade(s) or B ) give up a lesser prospect, there is plenty of substanative comparables in the form of Tommy Hunter, Tyler Clippard, Jon Papelbon, Mark Lowe and Jonathan Broxton.

 

Whether the comparason to the reliever or his counterpart compensation is used wisely is dependant on the poster I guess, but due to the numerous information sources available on the internet these days there is plenty of data for a layman who puts even minimal effort into some research to make an informed opinion.

[Mike Sixel]

Appeal to authority is the best for a board like this. I can't wait for the thread asking that the FO not be praised or held blameless in every thread......

[dxpavelka]

 

Your appeal to authority is amazing.  Everyone here knows it's a hard job, yet somehow trades happen all the time at the deadline.  Is it not equally hard for every GM in the business?

 

This year quality talent flew all around at the deadline.  Ryan has been a GM for a very long time and has never made a big splash at the deadline. Ever.  Not once.  Well, unless you want to count him bailing on the team by trading away Castillo in the middle of a playoff run which ticked off the players and sent us into a tailspin.  It's either not in his nature, and he should step down, or there a ton of other GMs who manage to do this tough job of making trades to help their ballclub at the deadline while he can't/won't, and he should step down. 

Couldn't answer the question, huh?  Didn't think so.

[dxpavelka]

 

Not a fair question.

And anyway, I would have passed on the Santana and Pelfrey signings this offseason. Boom: $50 million freed up to apply to an actual #1 or 2 guy this offseason.

Like other posters are saying, sometimes it's the moves you don't make.

Extending Suzuki at the trade deadline last July. Everyone on TD groaned when that happened, so it's hard to play the authority card on that one.

Additionally, giving Danny Santana too much rope this season. The GM should have optioned him around mid to late May to keep Molitor from continually playing him where he was over his head.

I give Ryan credit for bringing Hunter on, but you can't milk that one small victory forever. And no way should Hunter be signed for next season unless the press release includes the words "bench" or "limited playing time" or "DH only."

Another non answer.  As far as Hunter goes I'll bring up 2 points.  1.  If his presence next year as a 4th or 5th OF precludes the presence of names like Shane Robinson, Jordan Shafer, Sam Fuld, Clete Thomas, Darin Mastroiani or Alex Pressley, bring him back.  2.  If his presence in any way contributed to the growth & development of Aaron Hicks & Eddie Rosario this year I'd love to see him back next year for a full year of the same with Byron Buxton & possibly Max Kepler or even Oswaldo Arica or Adam Brett Walker.

[howieramone2]

Is this a serious question? None of us are in any position to be better at the job. There are perhaps dozens who are, right now, however.

Can you name 5?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Couldn't answer the question, huh?  Didn't think so.

 

Your question sort of doesn't need to be answered.  It's a fallacy.  It's not up to anyone to prove that they could do it better in order to point out the mistakes being made.  That is shifting the burden of proof in a really ridiculous way.

 

Basically, if that's all you got, your argument can be reasonably ignored or dismissed.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Another non answer.  As far as Hunter goes I'll bring up 2 points.  1.  If his presence next year as a 4th or 5th OF precludes the presence of names like Shane Robinson, Jordan Shafer, Sam Fuld, Clete Thomas, Darin Mastroiani or Alex Pressley, bring him back.  2.  If his presence in any way contributed to the growth & development of Aaron Hicks & Eddie Rosario this year I'd love to see him back next year for a full year of the same with Byron Buxton & possibly Max Kepler or even Oswaldo Arica or Adam Brett Walker.

There are parts of your reply I really like, and parts I really disagree with. It might get a little pitchforkian, so I can send you a private response if you wish.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Can you name 5?

Yes.

[howieramone2]

I think it drives as many people away having to listen to people constantly defend a FO with the track record this one has had the last 5 years. It's unfortunate any people decide to leave this site because a particular viewpoint doesn't fit their own, there is lots of sound, solid discussion that goes on here, maybe people just have to have a little more conviction in what they think and allow others the same courtesy.

You can not possibly support that. I do not recall ownership at any time complaining about this board being too positive.

[howieramone2]

 

Got a couple simple questions for everyone who is defending Terry Ryan:

 

Rewind to June 16th.  The Twins were 34-30, after losing 9 out of 11, and ask yourselves: Did at that point Ryan had the best 25 men in the organization playing for the Twins?  

 

How about last week, in that bullpen game:  Why have the hottest pitcher in the organization (Berrios) pitch at Rochester, while burn 5 arms in MN?

 

2 days ago:  The Yankees burned their bullpen after the accident, and what did Cashman do?  He got a couple of fresh arms from AAA.  When was the last time that Ryan did something like this?

 

Simple stuff.  And I am not even going to talk about improving the team.  Just get the best 25, 5, and 9 up and playing would do wonders for this team.  For some reason it seams that Ryan refuses to accept this concept...

The Yankees have a country club atmosphere. They will regress to the mean until the decline phase. Regardless of their mouthpieces, Yankee Stadium will become a parking lot.

[bird]

 

Lets see, the Twins had managers and scouts in their own system watching the two players traded, scouts watching relievers on other teams, Twins management were the people on the phones talking to other teams regarding possible trades for relievers, and what it was going to take to trade for them, and you're telling me that a bunch of impatient, gotta win now bloggers know more about the trade value of relievers than Twins management and scouts that have years in the business?? Really??!!!!

 

You also know that it takes years before a trade can be fairly judged.  I read this morning that Jepson might be the interim closer.  If he's lights out the rest of the year -- successful trade!!! If he sucks - bad trade!!  If one of the two prospects develops into Cy Young -- bad trade!!! If neither makes the majors -- good trade!! 

 

To be fair, we won't know if its a good trade or a bad trade for years to come.

 

 

I get all this and pretty much agree, but this is an entirely different argument than the "damned if you do or don't" one. People are entitled to their opinions, regardless of how well-based their level of "confidence" is. Most people come by their opinions honestly. It doesn't do a hell of a lot of good to appeal to authority or appeal for a bit of humility. I speak from personal experience. I've been misguided enough to make those appeals in the past. 

[DiscGolfer]

I'm willing to give TR the benefit of the doubt for one more year.  The past few years the pitching and OF defense have been some of the biggest weak points on the the team.  Starting pitching is improved, still room for more improvement.  The future of the OF defense looks like it could be near the top of the league very soon. 

 

TR has signed some big contracts in recent years, maybe not always the best players we want to see but how do you expect to attract better free agents in the future if you never pay or sometimes overpay for some free agents.  Suzuki and Hughes had good seasons last year and got paid for it.  Expecting them to match those numbers is unlikely.  

 

If you were a free agent looking to sign with a team would you sign with a team that never rewards its players for good seasons?

 

This is the first year coming back into competition for the playoffs.  The upcoming off season is critical to see what TR can do to improve the gaping holes on the roster and build this team for real competition next year.

[dxpavelka]

 

There are parts of your reply I really like, and parts I really disagree with. It might get a little pitchforkian, so I can send you a private response if you wish.

Feel free.