Royals Acquire Johnny Cueto

[Otto von Ballpark]

Finnegan is probably exhausting his prospect list eligibility, but I would be surprised if he didn't otherwise fall precipitously. He hasn't a good year at any level, or in any role. (To be fair, he has been jerked around a bit, but I think his ceiling isn't as high as his rapid ascent to MLB suggested).

 

Heck, if Cueto had not been traded, some team probably would have surrendered a draft pick comparable to Finnegan to sign him.

 

The other two prospects don't look that great either. The Royals did pretty well to snag the one ace most likely to be moved. Other teams are now left to try prying Price from the Tigers or more difficultly Hamels from the Phils.

[nicksaviking]

They know they need an ace type in the playoffs and they went and got one.  Going for it sometimes hurt.  Worrying all the time about making a trade because you might end up losing the trade in the end is a horrible way to run a team. KC played for and worried about the future for way too long.  They are in the window to worry about now.

I would agree, but the Twins and Royals aren't in the same position. "It" for the Royals Is a chance at a WS trophy. "It" for the Twins is a crapshoot one game playoff.

[HitInAPinch]

 

I would like to applaud KC for "making their move...".  I have no recollection of the Twins making a mid-season acquisition of this magnitude--ever!  The Twins were shown to be a WC-only team by KC earlier in the season, but that doesn't mean the Twins should half-azz-it--there is no certainty that they will be in this good of a playoff position again!  Even a measly one-game playoff (basically what '08 and '09 season became) is a vast improvement over the previous 4 years.  Oh, and lest we forget, the '10 season--which was supposed to be the year--didn't end all that well. Please recall the Twins wouldn't offer a package of those top prospects to acquire Cliff Lee--so they pleasured themselves with a trade of Ramos for Capps instead.  Yeah...

Wasn't the Twins trade for Tommy Herr done around mid-season 1988? 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Wasn't the Twins trade for Tommy Herr done around mid-season 1988?

April 1988, actually.

[Thrylos]

 

Wasn't the Twins trade for Tommy Herr done around mid-season 1988? 

 

 

Nope.  Very early in the season.   April 22.

[HitInAPinch]

 

April 1988, actually.

 

 

Nope.  Very early in the season.   April 22.

 

Gods, it seemed like that fiasco went on a lot longer than that

Herr was like the perfect guy for that lineup and he was pissy from the very beginning.  Somebody in the front office really read that one poorly....

 

[drjim]

Finnegan is probably exhausting his prospect list eligibility, but I would be surprised if he didn't otherwise fall precipitously. He hasn't a good year at any level, or in any role. (To be fair, he has been jerked around a bit, but I think his ceiling isn't as high as his rapid ascent to MLB suggested).

 

Heck, if Cueto had not been traded, some team probably would have surrendered a draft pick comparable to Finnegan to sign him.

 

The other two prospects don't look that great either. The Royals did pretty well to snag the one ace most likely to be moved. Other teams are now left to try prying Price from the Tigers or more difficultly Hamels from the Phils.

Berrios is much more valuable than Finnegan right now.

 

I would take him over the three.

 

Good for the Royals for going for it but I would find a similar trade by the Twins to be foolish this year.

[drjim]

I would like to applaud KC for "making their move...". I have no recollection of the Twins making a mid-season acquisition of this magnitude--ever! The Twins were shown to be a WC-only team by KC earlier in the season, but that doesn't mean the Twins should half-azz-it--there is no certainty that they will be in this good of a playoff position again! Even a measly one-game playoff (basically what '08 and '09 season became) is a vast improvement over the previous 4 years. Oh, and lest we forget, the '10 season--which was supposed to be the year--didn't end all that well. Please recall the Twins wouldn't offer a package of those top prospects to acquire Cliff Lee--so they pleasured themselves with a trade of Ramos for Capps instead. Yeah...

Are you sure on the last sentence?

 

At the time the Rangers offer for Lee topped anything the Twins could do. So there is no way to know either way.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Are you sure on the last sentence?

At the time the Rangers offer for Lee topped anything the Twins could do. So there is no way to know either way.

 

For what it's worth, I remember hearing us put Hicks and Ramos up in the deal and were close to making it happen until Ramos got hurt again.

[DaveW]

For what it's worth, I remember hearing us put Hicks and Ramos up in the deal and were close to making it happen until Ramos got hurt again.

prob for the best, lord only knows what we would have had to give up for proven Closer Matt Capps with Ramos out of the picture

[DaveW]

Pretty steep price to pay for Cueto, but I like it. If the royals make the World Series (and moreso if they win it) it was the right move.

[Vanimal46]

Pretty steep price to pay for Cueto, but I like it. If the royals make the World Series (and moreso if they win it) it was the right move.

I'm not sure it's THAT steep of a price... Disclaimer: I couldn't pick any of those guys out in a police lineup - but from I've read the players they gave up are projected to be #3s at their best, or bullpen guys.

[Vanimal46]

It's a great move for the Royals, and it's clear that it's WC or bust for our favorite ball club.... What are the options for the Royals at the end of this season? Offer him a QO and get a draft pick?

[DaveW]

They can't offer him a QO since he was traded. Chances are they will lose him, I can't see them getting into a bidding war for him.

[DaveW]

I'm not sure it's THAT steep of a price... Disclaimer: I couldn't pick any of those guys out in a police lineup - but from I've read the players they gave up are projected to be #3s at their best, or bullpen guys.

that could be said about 99% of pitching prospects, LHP don't grow on trees and I think Finnegan has a very high upside personally (higher than a #3)

 

The equivalent of this would be Gibson+Berrios+Hu or Duffey.

 

Steep IMo

[jimmer]

 

I would agree, but the Twins and Royals aren't in the same position. "It" for the Royals Is a chance at a WS trophy. "It" for the Twins is a crapshoot one game playoff.

My post had nothing to do with what the Twins should and/or shouldn't do. I was just giving kudos to KC.

 

If we want to make it about the Twins though, I can't remember them ever making even close to this kind of move at the deadline in any year where they won the division either.  At least since Ryan took over the first time.

[DiscGolfer]

This shouldn't change the Twins strategy at all.  Royals getting Cueto doesn't change the fact the bullpen still needs help, catcher is a weak spot and SS is a weak spot.  I don't want to see the Twins make a trade for a rental, if they're giving up prospects they need to get someone they have control of for past this year.

 

Good move for the Royals though.

[howeda7]

Good for the Royals. Mid-market teams have to pick years to 'go for it' and this is their year. The problem with Terry Ryan isn't that he won't go for it this year. It's that he has never gone for it. I'll never forgive him for refusing to acquire a bat in 2006, even if it probably wouldn't have won us a WS with what happened to Liriano and Radke after 7/31.

 

Unless they run up against the Twins, I hope the Royals win it this year. The Twins will just be over in the corner hoarding prospects for a tomorrow that never quite comes. (FWIW I'm not advocating anything big this year, but some RP and C at least.)

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Good for the Royals. Mid-market teams have to pick years to 'go for it' and this is their year. The problem with Terry Ryan isn't that he won't go for it this year. It's that he has never gone for it. I'll never forgive him for refusing to acquire a bat in 2006, even if it probably wouldn't have won us a WS with what happened to Liriano and Radke after 7/31.

 

Unless they run up against the Twins, I hope the Royals win it this year. The Twins will just be over in the corner hoarding prospects for a tomorrow that never quite comes. (FWIW I'm not advocating anything big this year, but some RP and C at least.)

While I won't defend the Twins' lack of enthusiasm for "going for it" in past seasons, people tend to overlook some of the truly awful luck they had in their best seasons.

 

In 2006, they didn't lose a good pitcher. They lost a phenomenal pitcher, a kid who was better than Johan-freakin-Santana that season (4.5 WAR in a ridiculous 121 IP).

 

In 2010, they didn't lose a good player. They lose a phenomenal player who was challenging Miggy for the "best player in the game" title before an untimely concussion (4.9 WAR in 81 games).

 

No matter whether they went all-in during one of those seasons or not, it's damned difficult to overcome losses of that kind. Teams lose players all the time but it's hard to swallow that in two of your best seasons of the past decade, you lost the best player on your team, a player that was having a season for the ages.

 

But still, more could have been done to shore up those losses. I won't argue that point.

[Mike Sixel]

Jason Tyner, DH. enough said about how hard Ryan went for it in the past.

[DaveW]

Jason Tyner, DH. enough said about how hard Ryan went for it in the past.

http://i.imgur.com/2d5oQjx.jpg

[Otto von Ballpark]

Just looking back, in 7 straight seasons of pretty much solid contention (2001-2007), TR only traded a "prospect" during the season twice, both times on August 31st -- Garbe for Borders in 2004, Harben for Nevin in 2006.  (Both stretching the term "prospect" quite a bit.)

 

That's actually kind of remarkable.

 

Smith continued the trend in 2008, before finally breaking it to great success in 2009 (and then going too far, for too little in return, in 2010).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

While I won't defend the Twins' lack of enthusiasm for "going for it" in past seasons, people tend to overlook some of the truly awful luck they had in their best seasons.

 

In 2006, they didn't lose a good pitcher. They lost a phenomenal pitcher, a kid who was better than Johan-freakin-Santana that season (4.5 WAR in a ridiculous 121 IP).

They also gave away 1.5 seasons of Kyle Lohse for meager salary relief at the 2006 deadline.  Lohse struggled that year, to be sure, but even led by Santana and Liriano, that's not a team that should have been *subtracting* from its rotation options.  (And Lohse immediately turned in a 103 ERA+ over the last two months for his new club.)

 

 

In 2010, they didn't lose a good player. They lose a phenomenal player who was challenging Miggy for the "best player in the game" title before an untimely concussion (4.9 WAR in 81 games).

They lost Morneau on July 7, and opted not to acquire another position player at all in July or August.  In fact they traded away Morneau's best indirect replacement Ramos, who could have shifted Mauer to 1B.

 

They also began losing Morneau to back problems in August 2009, yet didn't even make a waiver claim on pending FA Jim Thome.  We wound up starting Brendan Harris and Jose Morales at DH down the stretch and in the playoffs.

 

Combined with the 2001-2008 streak of zero midseason prospect trades, and I don't have a lot of sympathy.  Two mid- to late-season star losses over 10 years isn't that bad.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Like I said, I'm not defending their decisions, merely pointing out they had some pretty awful luck at exactly the wrong times.

[drjim]

Just looking back, in 7 straight seasons of pretty much solid contention (2001-2007), TR only traded a "prospect" during the season twice, both times on August 31st -- Garbe for Borders in 2004, Harben for Nevin in 2006. (Both stretching the term "prospect" quite a bit.)

 

That's actually kind of remarkable.

 

Smith continued the trend in 2008, before finally breaking it to great success in 2009 (and then going too far, for too little in return, in 2010).

Funny, they started trading more prospects as they got closer to Target Field.

[drjim]

They also gave away 1.5 seasons of Kyle Lohse for meager salary relief at the 2006 deadline. Lohse struggled that year, to be sure, but even led by Santana and Liriano, that's not a team that should have been *subtracting* from its rotation options. (And Lohse immediately turned in a 103 ERA+ over the last two months for his new club.)

 

 

They lost Morneau on July 7, and opted not to acquire another position player at all in July or August. In fact they traded away Morneau's best indirect replacement Ramos, who could have shifted Mauer to 1B.

 

They also began losing Morneau to back problems in August 2009, yet didn't even make a waiver claim on pending FA Jim Thome. We wound up starting Brendan Harris and Jose Morales at DH down the stretch and in the playoffs.

 

Combined with the 2001-2008 streak of zero midseason prospect trades, and I don't have a lot of sympathy. Two mid- to late-season star losses over 10 years isn't that bad.

I won't defend the Lohse dump, but for both of those Morneau injuries (especially the concussion) there is no way they could have predicted he would be out for the year. To criticize them for that is the worst kind of hindsight - especially since in 2010 they didn't have a hole in the lineup.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Funny, they started trading more prospects as they got closer to Target Field.

 

Funny, when McPhail was the GM, they had no issue spending money in the dome.....so it can't JUST be the new stadium.

[Badsmerf]

 

Just looking back, in 7 straight seasons of pretty much solid contention (2001-2007), TR only traded a "prospect" during the season twice, both times on August 31st -- Garbe for Borders in 2004, Harben for Nevin in 2006.  (Both stretching the term "prospect" quite a bit.)

 

That's actually kind of remarkable.

 

Smith continued the trend in 2008, before finally breaking it to great success in 2009 (and then going too far, for too little in return, in 2010).

Not true. He traded for Stewart and he provided the leadoff hitter they had been searching for. He also traded for Castillo, and he was solid at 2b for a few years. While Castillo didn't cost much, Kielty was well thought of for his power potential. 

[drjim]

Funny, when McPhail was the GM, they had no issue spending money in the dome.....so it can't JUST be the new stadium.

So you want to go down this road again? McPhail was so aware of the changing economic landscape that he jumped ship. Comparing 1991 to say 2005 is comparing two different sports.

 

So yes, it is all about the new stadium in the context of baseball's economic model post 1994 strike.

 

Though that is starting to change with the increases if pooled resources. 1995-2012 was a terrible time to be a low revenue team.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Like I said, I'm not defending their decisions, merely pointing out they had some pretty awful luck at exactly the wrong times.

"Exactly the wrong times" would be like August 1st or September 1st.

 

Actually Liriano is pretty close in that regard -- on August 1st, 2006, he got scratched from his next start before pretty quickly going down for the year.  But our rotation depth was already very shaky, and Liriano was on pace for ~210 innings in his first MLB season (despite spending a month and a half in the bullpen!), and Radke's shoulder was shredded by that point too.  No way we should have sold Lohse on July 31st, at least not without a corresponding SP addition.

 

We had plenty of time to react to Morneau's absence in 2010 but chose not to.