2016 Election Thread

[TheLeviathan]

It seems like speech stealing is just a thing.  The weird part is them all being in denial about it.

[nicksaviking]

This is a different case, and maybe doesn't have the same culpability as last night's incidents, but Donald Jr. copied some lines from an American Conservative article, whose author went to twitter claiming it wasn't stealing.  Still why use near the exact same lines?

Come on that's not fair. Trump university got sued out of existence before they could teach these folks AMA quotation guidelines. Lay off.

[PseudoSABR]

I think the ethics of intellectual property and plagiarism are, to be fair, complicated.   There are honest brokers (I think none in politics), where ones own ideas are inextricably formed with or informed by another's words.  Then there's just sloppiness.  There's no intent to cheat, really; though I'd offer that part of Trump's success is if you're not pushing the threshold of cheating/breaking the law, you're not winning.

[formerly33]

I can't believe the deal people are making over this. Sure, it might feel nice to get in a jab at Trump's wife after things he's said about women, but doesn't the very act of attacking a man via his wife, little caring how the latter party takes it, stem back to viewing women as the property of man? Behaving in a like manner to Trump doesn't solve any issues, imo ... just a thought.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I can't believe the deal people are making over this. Sure, it might feel nice to get in a jab at Trump's wife after things he's said about women, but doesn't the very act of attacking a man via his wife, little caring how the latter party takes it, stem back to viewing women as the property of man? Behaving in a like manner to Trump doesn't solve any issues, imo ... just a thought.

The big deal isn't Melania Trump; it's the failure of Trump's campaign to vet her speech to avoid paving the way for such an accusation.  That said, that people on the left take the opportunity to criticize Melania Trump as a person is shameful.   The issue isn't whether she cribbed some passages from Michelle Obama, but that someone further up the food chain didn't catch, well, the obvious plagiarism.  Melania Trump was never charged with a duty to be responsible for the sourcing of her speech.  (That Melania volunteered writing the speech in a prominent interview didn't help the inevitable mysoginic turn; another forced error by the Trump campaign, because if you watch the clip she looks coached to me.)

 

Just to be clear, the reason it's an issue is its indicative of organizational ineptitude, which should stigmatize that organization's leader, Trump,  and not the specific (yet another) example.  

[DaveW]

To be honest, the trump campaign is doing her no favors, they easily could have said "someone on the speech writing team made a mistake" instead they are just doubling down on it not being plagiarism and just a lie said by the Clinton camp and the evil liberal media.

 

It also was discovered that she and the campaign have been lying about a college degree that she in fact doesn't actually have.

 

Lastly, I haven't seen any personal jabs that go over the line with her (perhaps it helps that I don't visit any political forums, and have more or less unfollowed every idiot I know on Facebook) but being potential First Lady/first man/first spouse opens you up to some criticism. It's part of the game, people bashed Hillary during Clintons run and 8 years in office, ditto with Michelle (and even her kids). It's not "right" but it's sort of comes with the territory this year.

[PseudoSABR]

You know you're in crazy-land when Ted Cruz seems sane, inclusive, and aspirational. 

[ashbury]

So it turned out that Melania Trump rickrolled the convention last night.

 

This has gone well past the point of bizarre.

 

http://www.vox.com/2016/7/19/12221654/melania-trump-rickroll

People. You need to learn how to pull off a proper Rickroll.

[PseudoSABR]

 

People. You need to learn how to pull off a proper Rickroll.

I clicked...incognito.

[TheLeviathan]

It's funny watching Cruz talk about uniting.  Even Trump isn't as divisive as that guy and the irony of his intentions only makes it worse.

[Badsmerf]

How about both Cruz and third eye blind trolling the rnc. Can't make it up.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't agree with a lot of what Ted Cruz believes......but I do believe principle > party. He's 100% correct on that one. But let's be honest.....

 

If you can't like a tripling of the stock market

A great marriage

Joblessness down a lot

The annual deficit as a percent of gdp dropping

20MM more people insured (which is outsourced, btw)

Less Americans dying in wars

 

If you claim those are your principles, and hate Obama......well, it is all about party (and for some, race), and not about principles.

[TheLeviathan]

If this was all about principle, and not himself, Cruz would've stayed home like Bush and Kasich.

 

So I don't buy it.

[Mike Sixel]

 

If this was all about principle, and not himself, Cruz would've stayed home like Bush and Kasich.

 

So I don't buy it.

 

Oh, it's not all about principle.....but you'll give him no credit at all?

 

You'd rather he was all "party uber alles"?

[TheLeviathan]

I don't know what I'd rather have Ted Cruz do other than move to another country......

 

I think he wrapped a totally selfish motive in a selfless blanket.  I'm not buying it.

[Badsmerf]

I have no doubt he was doing it for selfish reasons. He knows Clinton will win and wants to say told you so in 2020. Now, i wouldn't put it past trump to run again in 2020.....

[nicksaviking]

I have no doubt he was doing it for selfish reasons. He knows Clinton will win and wants to say told you so in 2020. Now, i wouldn't put it past trump to run again in 2020.....

Agree. A guy like Cruz who finishes an embarrassing 2nd for his parties nomination normally fades into obscurity. He's clearly trying to make it clear he was right and everyone else in the party was wrong four years from now. Kasich is a sucker not doing the same, he'd be more attractive than Cruz for the party faithful left cleaning up the disaster that will follow Trump.

 

Cruz is heinous and unfortunately he's the only one with enough foresight to be standing in the right spot when the sky falls on the rest of the party. Kasich's and Bush's silence might as well be compliance when it gets looked on with hindsight.

[Badsmerf]

Trump sounds reasonably scary tonight. Not so sure he is going to lose anymore. He had to be doing everything possible to keep Gary Johnson out of the debates. If he continues to sound reasonable this race is going to be tighter than it should.

[Squirrel]

 

Trump sounds reasonably scary tonight. Not so sure he is going to lose anymore. He had to be doing everything possible to keep Gary Johnson out of the debates. If he continues to sound reasonable this race is going to be tighter than it should.

He's a master of reality TV. And it's sad many can't see the difference.

[DaveW]

Meh, trump had nothing to do with this speech, he can't help himself from screwing himself over later on, on Twitter, and interview or a debate.

 

The debates are will where he will ultimately bury himself, no carefully written speeches over the course of weeks will save him then.

 

Hillary has her issues, but she kills it in debates IMO

[PseudoSABR]

 

Trump sounds reasonably scary tonight. Not so sure he is going to lose anymore. He had to be doing everything possible to keep Gary Johnson out of the debates. If he continues to sound reasonable this race is going to be tighter than it should.

I never expected him to come unhinged in this speech, too much at stake and plenty of time to prepare.  He's really not saying much of anything, lots of bluster and nationalism.  I think the standard has become so low for the guy, that when's not full-bore crazy we mistake it for reason.  He made a brief turn towards reason in one of the final debates, only to fall back into unenforced errors and hate.

 

I mean he did promise to protect NATO allies only on a conditional basis just today.  

[Badsmerf]

I hope so. I almost hate (not a hateful person) trump, but you have to give him credit. This is a good speech. A lot of good points, a few digs here and there, but overall pretty solid. He also got the entire convention to cheer lgbt rights. Are you kidding? These are the same people that have fought ruthlessly against gay marriage.

 

Side note, I looked at Hillary Clinton's page and trumps on Facebook. I'm sorry to say I have 22 people that like trump compared to 2 for Hillary.... but I do have 5 for Gary Johnson!

[TheLeviathan]

All political speeches are platitudes, but tonight there was a lot of pro-LGBT stuff at the Republican convention.  Several people were basically encouraging the party to back off the idiotic social issues.

 

It was....interesting.

[Bark's Lounge]

Trump is a B.S. artist as we all know and I agree with Pseudo that he was not going to "F" up this speech in an all to important moment. But let us not forget that on this very thread, a few, but not too many moons ago, that many of us were saying and maybe exclaiming that there was no way in hell he would get the Republican Nomination for President.

 

The guy has some kind of force field over him and nothing he says that is awful, racist and stupid has much of a negative impact on him... it's mind boggling.

 

Clinton has the email baggage on her and it is ripe right now, but we do have some time for things to happen and change - hopefully the DNC goes good.

 

This Trump thing is a frickin' mind ****.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I hope so. I almost hate (not a hateful person) trump, but you have to give him credit. This is a good speech. A lot of good points, a few digs here and there, but overall pretty solid. He also got the entire convention to cheer lgbt rights. Are you kidding? These are the same people that have fought ruthlessly against gay marriage.

Side note, I looked at Hillary Clinton's page and trumps on Facebook. I'm sorry to say I have 22 people that like trump compared to 2 for Hillary.... but I do have 5 for Gary Johnson!

I do give him credit for eschewing Republican dogma.  But I just find him so utterly phony that his points of empathy seem transparently tokenistic and opportunistic.  That said, I expected a 'good' speech, meaning one not totally objectionable, palatable, and, even, aspirational.   I just don't think he can keep it up.

 

Edited Correction: My facebook stats: 5 likes for Trump, 25 likes for Clinton, and 6 likes for Gary Johnson. (Bernie at 55). Obviously, we've grown up in different circles, passed through different kinds of careers.  

 

I just don't see how Trump appeals to people he's not already appealing too.  I don't think he's going to flip people going for Gary, though Clinton could if she does something objectionable.   This should be the low point in the campaign for Clinton, the convention, and the lingering news of the careless label from the email server scandal.  

 

My one fear is that there's been a non-voting white population who will register and vote for Trump in large numbers, that we've been discounting.  

 

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

All political speeches are platitudes, but tonight there was a lot of pro-LGBT stuff at the Republican convention.  Several people were basically encouraging the party to back off the idiotic social issues.

 

It was....interesting.

Hey that's good. (I didn't get to watch much today and tuned in and out the Donald's speech, full disclosure.).  I just walked a clip of a portion of what I missed; he actually shamed Republicans a bit, which, to be fair, deserves credit.  

 

I guess if you feed the base enough nationalism and shift the othering tendency to immigrants and terrorists, the base may tolerate inclusive rhetoric, but is the religious right happy with this speech, this convention, are they motivated to show up in droves?  

 

I just don't think Trump can have it both ways. He can't both be reasonable and fire up all those who actually compose his base....

[TheLeviathan]

I don't disagree, there is definitely plenty of contradictions at work.  I mean, whatever quasi-inclusive talk happened is sort of offset by choosing Pence.  Still, I didn't expect it and was caught off guard a bit.

 

For whatever purposes it was trolled out, it's surprising that it happened.  

 

Also:

 

My one fear is that there's been a non-voting white population who will register and vote for Trump in large numbers, that we've been discounting.

 

 

Yup, I've been trying to tell some people I know that keep saying "Hillary wins in a landslide" that they are seriously underestimating the potential of this.  And seriously overestimating the Democrat's voting base.

 

Until Hillary is being sworn in....I have a bad feeling.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I don't disagree, there is definitely plenty of contradictions at work.  I mean, whatever quasi-inclusive talk happened is sort of offset by choosing Pence.  Still, I didn't expect it and was caught off guard a bit.

 

For whatever purposes it was trolled out, it's surprising that it happened.  

 

Also:

 

Yup, I've been trying to tell some people I know that keep saying "Hillary wins in a landslide" that they are seriously underestimating the potential of this.  And seriously overestimating the Democrat's voting base.

 

Until Hillary is being sworn in....I have a bad feeling.

Lot's of people I respect feel this way, and I do get shades of such a feeling now again.  

 

Although I agree with Dave, that Hillary will dominate the debates, I think exposure will be Trumps total and final unraveling.

 

Looking back, Romney was a heck of a candidate; he was smart, reasonable, a track record of competence and moderation, and the turn to the general election exposed his elitism, his out-of-touchness.  We all remember the 47% percent, but there was more than that--the elevator in the house, the dog on the roof of the car for a family trip, those gray streaks and the shape of his hair--that exposed his elitism.  

 

Trump, is not only a phony and a bluster-bus, he's an elite.  I don't think America really gets that yet.  They'll get the chance, but as I said, there might be a class of Americans I choose to ignore, because I'm too ashamed of them.  But I know many, many conservatives, that are disgusted by Trump, and will not vote for him.  These are people that voted for Romney.   Such a group would have to make up that deficit, as well as overcome the gap Obama won by (which was nearly four percent),

[PseudoSABR]

Next up: Clinton VP.  I'll be disappointed with a pick of Kaine or Tom Vilsack if what's being reported is true. (Smerf what do you think of Vilsack? Does he have national appeal?)  For lefties on Vilsack's regime at USDA (a mixed bag). 

 

The other supposed final contender is Labor Secretary Tom Perez.  

 

I think it's a mistake to lurch to the center, and assume she has the progressive wing in the bag.

[Mike Sixel]

I seriously believe that the Trumps believe the things they said last night, and are some odd mix of old school moderate Republican and protectionist xenophobe.