2016 Election Thread

[TheLeviathan]

VP picks are about doing no harm.  This was the guy that does no harm.

 

I think it's a perfectly fine choice.  He's a capable, rational politician.  Shouldn't that be exactly what we want and not someone that checks a bunch of crazy boxes?

[DaveW]

VP picks are about doing no harm. This was the guy that does no harm.

 

I think it's a perfectly fine choice. He's a capable, rational politician. Shouldn't that be exactly what we want and not someone that checks a bunch of crazy boxes?

This.

[DaveW]

Sorry, but this choice was just blech. She had a chance to add some excitement to the ticket and just added the same ol same ol which this primary showed that this is exactly what people DON'T want. And I'm a Hillary supporter and now I just feel utterly deflated. Just blech.

She wasn't trying to win your vote (or mine) since she already has it. It's about winning the election, which is literally the only thing that matters for these next 4 (or 8) years.

[Squirrel]

She wasn't trying to win your vote (or mine) since she already has it. It's about winning the election, which is literally the only thing that matters for these next 4 (or 8) years.

I get that. I just think her choice didn't help with that. This primary showed that people don't want the same old thing yet that's what she chose. I dint think this helps.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

It's a great pick, it's all about winning the election at this point and this was by far the best pick.

I know the Bernie bros wanted this to be some socialist utopia where nobody was responsible for the choices they made (like taking out student loans as an adult) and wanted someone to wipe out the system Mr Robot style, but the reality is this: we absolutely can not let someone like Trump win.

A lot will be said "lesser of two evils" and other nonsense. But in reality Hillary and Kaine are more or less Obama and Biden 2.0, but with a little more foriegn policy experience and a little (or a moderate amount of less charisma)

More or less it's time for the lazy Bernie bros to grow a brain and get with the program, nothing with be handed to you in this country, if you want something close to "fair" you will keep trump out of office.

I get that this is a hidden away forum on a baseball website site. But, come on Dave. You can get away with that kind of rhetoric here and that's fine... whatever. Just think if someone in an important position in the Democratic Party said that they would isolate the party from the Sander's enthusiasts and staunch followers. They are important to defeating Trump, insulting them will do no one any favors. Some of them are on the fence and don't be a negative force in determining which way the wind blows. Rather be a determining force blowing in the right direction, not the opposite.

 

That last sentence/paragraph you wrote in your post sounded quite similar to the Romney response when he lost the last presidential election.

 

No offense was meant, but that is how your post struck me.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think the Democratic primary was nearly as telling as some people like to think it was.  

 

I think it showed really one thing - there are a lot of white people 20-35 crippled by student loans.  A monkey with a funny hat holding up signs promising to do away with that issue was going to generate a lot of interest.  

 

Nothing more, nothing less.  

[DaveW]

I get that this is a hidden away forum on a baseball website site. But, come on Dave. You can get away with that kind of rhetoric here and that's fine... whatever. Just think if someone in an important position in the Democratic Party said that they would isolate the party from the Sander's enthusiasts and staunch followers. They are important to defeating Trump, insulting them will do no one any favors. Some of them are on the fence and don't be a negative force in determining which way the wind blows. Rather be a determining force blowing in the right direction, not the opposite.

 

That last sentence/paragraph you wrote in your post sounded quite similar to the Romney response when he lost the last presidential election.

 

No offense was meant, but that is how your post struck me.

Call it rhetoric all you want, I live in the most expensive city by far that has the highest taxes by far that also is one of the most

Liberal cities in this entire country.

 

I can assure you this "rhetoric" is well received amongst most people here. Don't believe it? Check every single public poll out there.

 

If a Sanders "fan" wants to vote for trump

Over Hillary because of this VP choice then they are literally the definition of an idiot.

 

In reality "Bernie bros" were made up of young white males in liberal states anyways (that were never swing states anyways) upsetting them should be the least of issues. Those types never vote anyways, and the states they are found in are heavy blue as well.

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the stone cold reality.

[DaveW]

I don't think the Democratic primary was nearly as telling as some people like to think it was.

 

I think it showed really one thing - there are a lot of white people 20-35 crippled by student loans. A monkey with a funny hat holding up signs promising to do away with that issue was going to generate a lot of interest.

 

Nothing more, nothing less.

Yup true, very true.

 

Those same people also had a lot of time on their hands to make a (failed) Twitter/Facebook/Reddit "movement" as well

 

This country has a lot of serious issues, some idiot that took out 75k in loans to get some half assed degree and then refuse to get anything close to a "real" career, is pretty far down the list for me personally.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I don't think the Democratic primary was nearly as telling as some people like to think it was.  

 

I think it showed really one thing - there are a lot of white people 20-35 crippled by student loans.  A monkey with a funny hat holding up signs promising to do away with that issue was going to generate a lot of interest.  

 

Nothing more, nothing less.  

Don't disagree.  But the notion that Democratic socialism and Bernie Sanders would get any play at all, was out-of-hand dismissed a year ago.   Let's not pretend that progressive wing the Democratic Party didn't show some heft; the group you identified is composed of a lot of college-educated whites who settled for moderate democratic policy for decades, but chose not to this time--that's significant.  No one was betting Sanders would garner 45% of the primary vote and finally bow out in June/July... 

[Bark's Lounge]

 

I don't think the Democratic primary was nearly as telling as some people like to think it was.  

 

I think it showed really one thing - there are a lot of white people 20-35 crippled by student loans.  A monkey with a funny hat holding up signs promising to do away with that issue was going to generate a lot of interest.  

 

Nothing more, nothing less.  

 

Maybe some Millennials took that at face value. I think rational people thought the student loan issue could be an problem where some form of relief could be solved in the next administration.

[DaveW]

Maybe some Millennials took that at face value. I think rational people thought the student loan issue could be an problem where some form of relief could be solved in the next administration.

As someone that took out 65k in student loans (and paid them off) the only real solution is making people realize they can't borrow a **** load of money and not pay it off.

 

If you doubt your ability to make that money in the first 10-15 years to pay off (interest etc included) then perhaps you shouldn't borrow it in the first place.

[TheLeviathan]

 

As someone that took out 65k in student loans (and paid them off) the only real solution is making people realize they can't borrow a **** load of money and not pay it off.

If you doubt your ability to make that money in the first 10-15 years to pay off (interest etc included) then perhaps you shouldn't borrow it in the first place.

 

We're going to disagree here Dave.  The truth is, it isn't hardened adults that took these loans out, most of them were 18-20 year olds with no concept of money and who constantly heard promises about how much more money they'd make with their college degree.

 

We're going to have to basically forgive a bunch of these loans for a couple reasons - 1) to reset the college financing system (Bernie's big mistake - he basically sided with the bad guy on this issue) and 2) to be perhaps the single smartest economic recovery plan anyone could conceive.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

Don't disagree.  But the notion that Democratic socialism and Bernie Sanders would get any play at all, was out-of-hand dismissed a year ago.   Let's not pretend that progressive wing the Democratic Party didn't show some heft; the group you identified is composed of a lot of college-educated whites who settled for moderate democratic policy for decades, but chose not to this time--that's significant.  No one was betting Sanders would garner 45% of the primary vote and finally bow out in June/July... 

 

You're right about that, Bernie picked a very smart issue and rode it (and his other positions) into much more celebrity than I would've expected.  

 

I'm not sure how much appetite there really was for Bernie's politics, though.  I think there was a lot of appetite for his message generally, but specifically I think it was really just one issue that mattered.

 

Even still, won't these same voters just settle again?  If so, then I don't think her VP choice matters much, like most VP picks.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

As someone that took out 65k in student loans (and paid them off) the only real solution is making people realize they can't borrow a **** load of money and not pay it off.

If you doubt your ability to make that money in the first 10-15 years to pay off (interest etc included) then perhaps you shouldn't borrow it in the first place.

Self doubt is human nature. Especially for poor people who come from ****.

 

According to what you say, maybe all poor people should commit suicide. Problem solved.

[PseudoSABR]

 

You're right about that, Bernie picked a very smart issue and rode it (and his other positions) into much more celebrity than I would've expected.  

 

I'm not sure how much appetite there really was for Bernie's politics, though.  I think there was a lot of appetite for his message generally, but specifically I think it was really just one issue that mattered.

 

Even still, won't these same voters just settle again?  If so, then I don't think her VP choice matters much, like most VP picks.

I can only speak from personal experience, but it was Bernie's unabashed advocacy of what I consider common, long-held liberal values.  It was the first time I really ever witnessed a politician not try to hide his liberalism.  Liberal was a dirty word for decades.  Socialism was akin to treason.   For my part, it wasn't just one issue.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I can only speak from personal experience, but it was Bernie's unabashed advocacy of what I consider common, long-held liberal values.  It was the first time I really ever witnessed a politician not try to hide his liberalism.  Liberal was a dirty word for decades.  Socialism was akin to treason.   For my part, it wasn't just one issue.

 

I can see that.  I think his campaign certainly demystified those terms or, at the very least, shows they aren't quite as Voldemort-y as previously thought.

 

I just think that one issue is what brought him as far as he got.  That's to his credit too.  At some point someone was going to have to, I don't know, talk to a random sampling of 20-40 year olds and find out just how crippling student loan debt really is.  Any of us that took our college degrees and went out to help people and serve the general public are absolutely straddled by it.

[ashbury]

Liberal was a dirty word for decades. 

It still is, and Socialism even more so.

 

Trump would have trounced Bernie in the general election, by bringing it down to a single issue: do you want free enterprise or socialism? He might even have ditched his Make America Great Again slogan, and go with "Trump/Pence, the choice is clear." The hard Left would vote in one direction of course, the hard Right in the other, but too many voters in the middle would get spooked by the constant hammering on that word, and Sanders would have no chance.

 

Obama early in his first term acknowledged he was governing a center-right nation, in terms of it affecting what he would go after. And of course McCain and later Romney tried to pin the Socialist label on Obama but it didn't stick. The nature of the country has not changed since then.

 

If Sanders wants a lasting legacy he needs to figure out how like-minded candidates can win more local elections, building an actual groundswell. Governing from the top is not a recipe for lasting change.

[ashbury]

And it's Kaine.  Bleh.  

Perhaps Hillary wanted somebody she could put in charge of all domestic and foreign policy.

[Willihammer]

Hey, Tim Kaine is one of us!

 

I admit I've never heard of the guy. Looked up his interview on MTP last month and am impressed. Seems like a thinking guy more than a political bot.

[DaveW]

Self doubt is human nature. Especially for poor people who come from ****.

 

According to what you say, maybe all poor people should commit suicide. Problem solved.

Yes that's exactly what I said.

 

I'm all for subsidizing college (or trade schools) for the poor, we already do that somewhat, but we need to do better in that area.

 

I already have suggested several times in this thread that we should make community college (2 years) free for everyone (assuming they maintain a 2.5 GPA)

 

That would cut down on the student loan debt 50% in most cases.

 

But this idea of not paying off loans because you don't want to get a real job after college is ridiculous.

[TheLeviathan]

Dave  - Many careers require college training and simply don't pay enough to account for student loans.  At least, not without having to pay them off for 30 years where you see a sizable portion of your spending power sucked up every month for those 30 years. 

[DaveW]

Dave - Many careers require college training and simply don't pay enough to account for student loans. At least, not without having to pay them off for 30 years where you see a sizable portion of your spending power sucked up every month for those 30 years.

Make the first two years free at community college. That knocks out half of it right there.

 

Also I think state schools need to lower their costs overall as well.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Make the first two years free at community college. That knocks out half of it right there.

Also I think state schools need to lower their costs overall as well.

 

I would argue your second point is entirely the problem.  The loans for the last 10-20 years have been a reflection of it.

 

I consider government forgiveness of those loans an apology for "we screwed this up for all of you, let us undo this catastrophe of unintended consequences"

 

Between child care and student loans, you don't have to look far to see why there is absolutely no spending power in the middle class right now.  

[Bark's Lounge]

I watched the Kaine introduction, and maybe I drank some of the snake oil, but he is very likable and well read.

 

He reminds me of my uncle, a lifelong Republican who switched parties after "W". If this guy is 33.33333% the guy my uncle is, I like the pick.

 

Maybe someone roofied my snake oil, I don't know. Is it just me, or does Kaine look like Paul Molitor?

[DaveW]

I watched the Kaine introduction, and maybe I drank some of the snake oil, but he is very likable and well read.

 

He reminds me of my uncle, a lifelong Republican who switched parties after "W". If this guy is 33.33333% the guy my uncle is, I like the pick.

 

Maybe someone roofied my snake oil, I don't know. Is it just me, or does Kaine look like Paul Molitor?

Yeah he's very likable, he doesn't have some bold and brash personality, but that is a good thing IMO.

[TheLeviathan]

Yeah, here is my conclusion on Kaine:

 

This is exactly the kind of rational, real world decision maker everyone should want helping to run their government.

 

If you're complaining about this guy, you're looking for the wrong things in elected officials.

[Bark's Lounge]

 

Yeah, here is my conclusion on Kaine:

 

This is exactly the kind of rational, real world decision maker everyone should want helping to run their government.

 

If you're complaining about this guy, you're looking for the wrong things in elected officials.

I don't know what the heck happened, but I really Like Tim Kaine, he rubbed me right I guess. I like where he comes from and he has built it himself from how it appears. I like success stories, especially when it comes from a guy who you would never think would be able to attain this level of service. He appears to be very humble, that is the kind of person I can throw my support into.

[Bark's Lounge]

Like every politician, Tim Kaine has his blemishes and I do hope he changes his mind on a couple of matters, but as we know, nothing is ever perfect.

 

I am on board with this ticket, but that is worthless to say as Trump needs to be defeated, I cannot stomach a world where Donald Trump is the President of the United States.

 

I would have voted for Clinton if a piece of dog **** was her running mate, also, I would have voted for dog **** if it was the democratic nominee for president.

 

I think Kaine will be a great benefit for Hillary. Do it right and don't use the word progressive as a tool to swindle people who support you, make that word become reality when you are elected to the greatest office of this country.

[DaveW]

Lot of talk about his wikileaks dump, IMO not of it is very damaging and most of it is pretty boring/not surpising.

 

I was they would dump a Trump email server.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Lot of talk about his wikileaks dump, IMO not of it is very damaging and most of it is pretty boring/not surpising.

I was they would dump a Trump email server.

Oh, Russia, you have not mattered in a US election since Palin could see you.