2016 Election Thread

[Craig Arko]

The GOP has posted the results of the vice-presidential debate to their website:

 

 https://gop.com/who-won-the-vice-presidential-debate/

Neat trick!

[TheLeviathan]

 

The GOP has posted the results of the vice-presidential debate to their website:

 

 https://gop.com/who-won-the-vice-presidential-debate/

 

They could've done that weeks ago.  Wonder what the hold up was....

[TheLeviathan]

I'll give Pence credit, he's doing his job tonight.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I'll give Pence credit, he's doing his job tonight.

Depends on what his job is.  He played the classic Republican as competently as anyone, but he did little to buttress Trump's case (even sometimes stating positions in opposition of Trump).   Looks more like 2020, than 2016.

 

That said, Kaine is annoying. He was eager and naively rude.  He came off as that annoying kid who reminds the teacher that she forgot to assign homework.

[Bark's Lounge]

Based upon what I seen tonight, and I know this thread has a lot of moderates. I believe Kaine came out on top. Not that it means much, but I thinks the moderates side with Kaine.

 

Pence is the tool of a very bad human being.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Depends on what his job is.  He played the classic Republican as competently as anyone, but he did little to buttress Trump's case (even sometimes stating positions in opposition of Trump).   Looks more like 2020, than 2016.

 

That said, Kaine is annoying. He was eager and naively rude.  He came off as that annoying kid who reminds the teacher that she forgot to assign homework.

 

His job was to (IMO) look competent, calm, and deflect the attacks.  I thought, by and large, he made Kaine look worse than I thought he would by doing exactly that.

 

I'm no fan of Pence, there are still many reasons I dislike him almost as much as Trump, but he did better than I thought.  I mean, hell, how do you defend Trump?  Nothing he could've said would have sufficed.  So to walk out there and not get absolutely destroyed against those attacks is a victory in and of itself.  

[Squirrel]

 

His job was to (IMO) look competent, calm, and deflect the attacks.  I thought, by and large, he made Kaine look worse than I thought he would by doing exactly that.

 

I'm no fan of Pence, there are still many reasons I dislike him almost as much as Trump, but he did better than I thought.  I mean, hell, how do you defend Trump?  Nothing he could've said would have sufficed.  So to walk out there and not get absolutely destroyed against those attacks is a victory in and of itself.  

I agree that Pence came across as the more composed and I think held a better demeanor ... but he still lied his ass off.

[PseudoSABR]

I don't think we disagree on the outcome of the debate; my point is even though Pence "won" the debate, he did little to help Trump.  

 

I'll quote Nate Silver:

The conventional wisdom rapidly seems to be congealing around something like the following — which I pretty much agree with: 1. Pence “won” on style/points, whereas Kaine was annoying and interrupt-y at some moments and sounded canned at others, but 2. Pence was unable/unwilling to defend Trump and had a lot of incongruities and fact-checking problems, and that’ll make for a big debate about the debate tomorrow.

 

I think Pence's job wasn't so much to look the part as to stymie the Trump narrative coming out of the last debate.   I think Pence's reasonableness creates a story and a controversy in its disparity to Trump himself.

[ashbury]

The debate was pretty unilluminating until the very end. Elaine Quijano's question was, "can you discuss in detail a time when you struggled to balance your personal faith and a public policy position?"

 

Kaine: I am against the death penalty but Virginia has one, and I struggled with making the final decisions that resulted in several people being executed during my tenure.

 

Pence: I am against abortion, and I struggled with my inability to impose my own vision about this upon others. I can't understand how my opponents see differently.

 

OK, I may have paraphrased a little.

 

It's too bad this moment came so late, as I imagine relatively few viewers were still watching. It was a bit of a softball question for Kaine, and he acknowledged it, since his death penalty conflict was pretty well known. Pence still flubbed it big-time, at least in terms of letting us see anything about himself - wait, I guess in political terms it means he succeeded. Hmph. Maybe some small percentage of the electorate is interested in distinguishing between self-reflective and self-righteous.

 

My other reaction was that Tim Kaine can't control the adrenaline rush when making a verbal attack. You could see it taking him 30 seconds to settle down after he stopped speaking, for that first half hour or so.

[stringer bell]

Back to the horse race:  Clinton has opened up probably a five-point lead over Trump according to the pundits and pollsters, pretty much the margin that Obama had versus Romney in 2012. The map is pretty similar with the swing states changing order a bit. Iowa is Trump's best bet to win where Obama won four years ago, while Clinton has a solid chance to carry North Carolina.

 

I wonder if Mitt Romney is thinking that if he waited four years, he could have been king of the world (president). I'm pretty confident that Mittens would beat Hillary comfortably. Not as confident that he could get the GOP nomination.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I agree that Pence came across as the more composed and I think held a better demeanor ... but he still lied his ass off.

 

Absolutely, those two things are not mutually exclusive.  And I agree with Pseudo, his competent performance could actually be a problem in some regards.  

 

Either way, Pence was asked to defend the indefensible and didn't go totally off the rails.  That's a success in and of itself.

[Squirrel]

 

Absolutely, those two things are not mutually exclusive.  And I agree with Pseudo, his competent performance could actually be a problem in some regards.  

 

Either way, Pence was asked to defend the indefensible and didn't go totally off the rails.  That's a success in and of itself.

Heh ... I just find 'didn't go totally off the rails' and 'success' a wee bit at odds with one another ... but I get what you mean.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Heh ... I just find 'didn't go totally off the rails' and 'success' a wee bit at odds with one another ... but I get what you mean.

 

I'd argue - is it really all that different than Hillary's expectations last time?  Yeah, it's a low bar, but we're dealing with a bar that has been set really, really low this year thanks to the Orange Menace.  

 

I don't think last night moves the needle, but Clinton's campaign needs to make sure Trump never gains any traction or momentum from this.

[stringer bell]

VP debates seldom move the needle. Bentsen/Quayle should have given people pause about Poppy's judgment, but it didn't. I will say that McCain's choice of Palin clinched Obama's win, but I don't think that VP debate was the be-all and end-all.

[Mike Sixel]

 

VP debates seldom move the needle. Bentsen/Quayle should have given people pause about Poppy's judgment, but it didn't. I will say that McCain's choice of Palin clinched Obama's win, but I don't think that VP debate was the be-all and end-all.

 

I agree, the CHOICE of Palin sealed the deal. It also completely ceded the party to the right wing, which may have been inevitable anyway, but is sped up the process.

[nicksaviking]

 

 Pence still flubbed it big-time, at least in terms of letting us see anything about himself - wait, I guess in political terms it means he succeeded. Hmph. Maybe some small percentage of the electorate is interested in distinguishing between self-reflective and self-righteous.

 

Right, it sounded like a guy in a job interview when asked what he might say his biggest weakness is and he says, "I guess I'd have to say my biggest weakness is sometimes I'm TOO smart."

 

I have to think Pence probably cried himself to sleep last night over having to publicly suck-up to a man who is just as arrogant but twice as dumb.

[nicksaviking]

 

VP debates seldom move the needle. Bentsen/Quayle should have given people pause about Poppy's judgment, but it didn't.

 

No kidding. If VP debates had any impact Bensten's "Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy" line not only would have clinched the presidency for Dukakis, but it would have made him emperor of the universe.

[Squirrel]

 

I agree, the CHOICE of Palin sealed the deal. It also completely ceded the party to the right wing, which may have been inevitable anyway, but is sped up the process.

Yup. I was going to vote 3rd party in 2008 ... in Illinois, Obama winning was a done deal, so it didn't really matter ... but then the Palin nomination. While it made no difference in Illinois, it did in other states.

[Mike Sixel]

I really liked McCain. Palin and the thought of all three branches being controlled by those that would, imo, take our freedoms away, was more than I could handle, so even w/o Palin, I might have voted Obama.

 

I remember when people like McCain were the norm, not the exception.

[nicksaviking]

 

I really liked McCain. Palin and the thought of all three branches being controlled by those that would, imo, take our freedoms away, was more than I could handle, so even w/o Palin, I might have voted Obama.

 

I remember when people like McCain were the norm, not the exception.

 

I wrote McCain's name in on the ballot in 2000. I hated what Bush did to him so bad.

 

I'll never understand what happened to him though. In 2008 he basically did to the RNC what Trump did this year, he got the nomination despite not being Tea Party enough and no one in the party wanting him to win. Then AFTER he got the nomination he went full crazy on the bit taking photo ops going to church, backing away from his immigration amnesty, LGBT and military stances. Why didn't he stick to what got him there, namely, being the only sane Republican?

[TheLeviathan]

McCain is an example of a good man that got swallowed by the insanity of the GOP.

[Mike Sixel]

 

McCain is an example of a good man that got swallowed by the insanity of the GOP.

 

one of the reasons I left the party in the 90s despite being on short lists..... It was changing people in ways I didn't like.

[Badsmerf]

This is certainly looking like a campaign for the white vote. It's fairly shocking, and obvious. I struggle to see how a self proclaimed man of faith can flat out lie through his teeth knowing he will get fact checked. Obviously that is why he dodged as many challenges as possible.

 

I think it's a terrible double standard that pence wins because he didn't call Mexicans rapists or ask for a ban on Muslims. He won on demeanor only, calmly not answering questions, and coming across as a tolerable human. That's where we're at here.

 

Lastly, if pence thinks this campaign is going to put him in the front of the line in 2020 he should have hired an advisor. I foresee much of his platform will have continued to lose support, even from the base. I believe this because i believe the gop is in real trouble and will be forced to rethink its strategy.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think it's a double standard.  I was holding Pence and Clinton to the same standard because that's what each of them needed to do.

 

But yeah, this is a battle for the poor white vote.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I don't think it's a double standard.  I was holding Pence and Clinton to the same standard because that's what each of them needed to do.

 

But yeah, this is a battle for the poor white vote.

 

Which neither party actually cares all that much about, at least the nationally elected ones...

[TheLeviathan]

 

Which neither party actually cares all that much about, at least the nationally elected ones...

 

Well, except for their vote anyway,

[Squirrel]

This is certainly looking like a campaign for the white vote. It's fairly shocking, and obvious. I struggle to see how a self proclaimed man of faith can flat out lie through his teeth knowing he will get fact checked. Obviously that is why he dodged as many challenges as possible.

I think it's a terrible double standard that pence wins because he didn't call Mexicans rapists or ask for a ban on Muslims. He won on demeanor only, calmly not answering questions, and coming across as a tolerable human. That's where we're at here.

Lastly, if pence thinks this campaign is going to put him in the front of the line in 2020 he should have hired an advisor. I foresee much of his platform will have continued to lose support, even from the base. I believe this because i believe the gop is in real trouble and will be forced to rethink its strategy.

Maybe the strategy was to set up Pence in order to do this knowing he'd lie, deny and defend ...

 

http://www.pajiba.com/politics/hillary-clinton-quickly-turns-mike-pences-debate-victory-into-ash.php

 

If that was the case then I won't even give style to Pence if it was a set up.

[Badsmerf]

Brilliant ad. That should run until the election.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Maybe the strategy was to set up Pence in order to do this knowing he'd lie, deny and defend ...

http://www.pajiba.com/politics/hillary-clinton-quickly-turns-mike-pences-debate-victory-into-ash.php

If that was the case then I won't even give style to Pence if it was a set up.

 

He still gets style points, but Clinton's campaign is utilizing the debate's results perfectly.  It was clear Kaine was sent out there to be an attack dog and he pounded those points.  He just did it a bit too aggressively so that he came off a bit obnoxious.

 

But that is precisely how you utilize that debate to keep Trump on his heels.  Kudos to the Clinton campaign.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Clinton campaign appears to be playing these debates like a fiddle. Sure, you can walk away from each debate and saying "Well, Trump/Pence had a point there..." but the real effect is going to come from the media blitz.

 

And Trump/Pence giddily walk into the trap. It's almost as if one of these campaigns has a strategy while the other is amateur hour.

 

Oh, wait...