Valencia, Morneau LH/RH splits and 1st base

[jokin]

It could work, but can be done another (easier) way without Valencia having to learn another position: Do the Valencia-Parmelee swap and against LHP play Valencia at 3B and Plouffe at 1B (a position he played before). Easy peasy. But that is if Morneau sticks around the next month or 2

What you're proposing makes way too much sense, a guarantee that Gardy would never consider it. Now, if there's another catcher who mashes lefties and occasionally can play 1B, Gardy would be all over it, can't have enough catchers, 3 just aint enough.

[Shane Wahl]

I didn't even think of that, Thrylos. I guess I am not totally sure that messing around with Plouffe defensively and I would like to see Valencia do something more to contribute, but whatever. I still am not sure everyone is grasping the depths of the badness against lefties for Morneau.

[twinsnorth49]

I didn't even think of that, Thrylos. I guess I am not totally sure that messing around with Plouffe defensively and I would like to see Valencia do something more to contribute, but whatever. I still am not sure everyone is grasping the depths of the badness against lefties for Morneau.

I think everyone grasps the depths of badness Morneau is at vs lefties, it's pretty plain to see. I just don't agree with you that it's going to stay that way and when it turns around it's better for the team on multiple levels.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Playing everyday...Parm yes, Valencia not so much. Danny is 27, playing everyday in AAA isn't gonna turn him into a major league starter. Better for him to rot on the bench and get the occiasional start or pitch hit duties against tough LHP then have Chris sit and sit for games on end.

DPJ, I guess I hold out more hope than you do. Valencia had a pretty decent minor league track record and was good in his rookie campaign. Sophmore and Junior seaons certainly have had less than desirable results, but given his history, I still think there's hope for him to put it together and provide decent production for a couple years while he is cheap... Given that, I'd play the kid every day, whether that's in Rochester or MN, I don't care.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not sure I'd get bent out of shape either way. Parmalee needs to go down and start. Might as well keep Valencia in AAA hitting every day rather than sitting on the bench annoying the manager. Just call up your most Rene Tosoni-like guy that hits right-handed and call it a day.

[DaveW]

I'm not sure I'd get bent out of shape either way. Parmalee needs to go down and start. Might as well keep Valencia in AAA hitting every day rather than sitting on the bench annoying the manager. Just call up your most Rene Tosoni-like guy that hits right-handed and call it a day.

Hey buddy, how dare you tread on a Tosoni like prospect, those guys only come around once maybe twice in a blue moon for an orginzation!

[Ultima Ratio]

Re-posting this from the game thread tonight:

Well, we got some answers to our questions about the bench players tonight. Parmelee's job is to get hit by pitch when down in 0-2 counts for which he's a pinch hitter in unlikely ninth-inning-rallies. And Martroaianni's job is to pinch run and score from second on OF singles, again.... when fighting for the unlikely 9th inning rally. So there we go. I'm satisfied. No roster moves necessary.

[Pius Jefferson]

It's minor but Matt Carson or a non 40 man player would need to replace someone on the 40 man roster.

 

Agreed with everyone else that Parmelee needs to be in Rochester getting every day playing time.

[Kobs]

So...have we determined whether or not Morneau is afraid if getting hit in the head by left handed pitchers?

[Cody Christie]

I hate seeing Parmelee not getting used. I think Valencia is not in the plans for the Twins at this point. He hasn't done that great at Triple-A so why call him up

[Riverbrian]

1. Justin Morneau is either going to be our 1st baseman in 2013 OR traded to a contender for something. (or hurt again).

 

2. If Morneau is our 1B in 2013 and with that contract and earned veteran cred. He will be allowed time to work on things against lefties.

 

3. If Morneau is traded at the deadline or off season he needs to have the confidence of his management displayed. You do not throw a brick through the windshield of your car prior to selling it. You do not throw a brick threw the windshield of a car your keeping.

 

4. Either way... Platooning Morneau is counter productive to the betterment of the Twins.

 

5. Danny Velencia had a starting major league job. He had no obvious threat underneath him and therefore no reason to lose his job and he still managed to lose his major league job.

 

6. Velencia isn't in AAA right now because he hit whatever he hit. Velencia is in AAA because he played half assed baseball.

 

7. His manager is Ron Gardenhire and Gardy will stick with Tolbert and Punto and players who go out and bust ass despite poor hitting metrics.

 

8. Velencia is in Rochester and he deserves it. He took his job for granted and he lost it. He's done nothing in Rochester to deserve a call back.

 

9. Chris Parmelee should be sent down... It makes no sense to waste him on the bench. Call him back up when a job is open.

 

10. There are 95 guys on this team who can play 1B right now. Training Velencia for platoon at 1B is a really bad idea.

[CDog]

8. Velencia is in Rochester and he deserves it. He took his job for granted and he lost it. He's done nothing in Rochester to deserve a call back.

How do you know he took his job for granted?

[snepp]

How do you know he took his job for granted?

It fits the narrative of his post?

[Riverbrian]

How do you know he took his job for granted?

Been around the game for awhile. I recognize it when I see it.

 

Jeez that sounded egotistical... Didn't mean to sound that way.

 

Defensively... Let's just say... There was no dirt on his uniform. Watched him make routine boots too many times because he wasn't engaged enough to move his feet a couple of steps. That's taking your job for granted. Especially with your boss named Ron Gardenhire.

 

Offensively a year straight of chasing the outside pitch without fixing it. If you don't stop swinging at that. The pitchers will keep throwing it. If you do make contact it's a weak grounder or pop up everytime. After awhile it's clear... The kid isn't attempting to adjust and doing so without consequence. He's a good hitter. The MLB fastball wasn't too much for him. The mental part is.

[Shane Wahl]

1. I am not a fan of Danny Valencia by any means but Trevor Plouffe was terrible to start the season as well, wasn't he? I don't really think the Twins should write him off at this point.

 

2. I find it almost ridiculous to think that Justin Morneau with $23 million left on his contract is going to be traded, especially with his current struggles and what appears to be some other injury (probably due to wear and tear of playing MORE THAN HE SHOULD). Look at his June numbers.

 

3. I fail to see how doing this negates the Twins future in any way, especially given 2 above. Valencia is not simply some terrible player. And he has been very good against lefties. Morneau is a fundamentally different player post July 2010.

 

4. It always strikes me as odd when people poo-poo moves that might mean 1 win in a season (though I am not sure this would only be worth 1 win). If one does that 5 times, that's 5 wins.

[Riverbrian]

1. I am not a fan of Danny Valencia by any means but Trevor Plouffe was terrible to start the season as well, wasn't he? I don't really think the Twins should write him off at this point.

 

I don't think the Twins should write him off either. I think Velencia has to stop writing himself off. He needs to know these jobs are earned. Plouffe certainly was stinking up the joint. He got a job handed to him cuz there was no one else to turn to and he stopped swinging at crap and he grabbed the job with both hands. He fixed it in less than a month of full time duty... Velencia had over a year and it was getting worse. Still not fixed!

 

2. I find it almost ridiculous to think that Justin Morneau with $23 million left on his contract is going to be traded, especially with his current struggles and what appears to be some other injury (probably due to wear and tear of playing MORE THAN HE SHOULD). Look at his June numbers.

 

Can't argue with this too loudly. You may be right. However, your prophecy is much more self fulfilling if you kick him in the nuts. If Morneau gets Plouffe hot in July... A former MVP may change GM opinions. You want to give Velencia that chance to do a Plouffe but you won't give it to the guy who actually did it before. I cant see your thinking here. The Twins could also eat some contract to make a deal better. Eating some money to get a pitching prospect in return is better than eating some money because his splits are looking rough and you toss him aside. 14 million and a platoon. You might as well cut him cuz he will be worthless at that point.

 

3. I fail to see how doing this negates the Twins future in any way, especially given 2 above. Valencia is not simply some terrible player. And he has been very good against lefties. Morneau is a fundamentally different player post July 2010.

 

Velen is is not a terrible player he just plays terribly. You can call Velencia up... Let him fill the water jugs... I don't care. Velencia being called up does not negate the Twins future. He played his way into the water jug role. Velencia means very little in the baseball world right now.

 

You negate the Twins future by:

 

A. Pulling the plug on any future trade value for a former MVP.

B. If Morneau has no current trade value. He's a 2013 Twin for sure and hes making 14 million. Doesn't take a rocket scientist or zookeeper or radio DJ or any other smart person to realize that Justin Morneau is playing 1B next year. So a platoon isn't wise.

 

4. It always strikes me as odd when people poo-poo moves that might mean 1 win in a season (though I am not sure this would only be worth 1 win). If one does that 5 times, that's 5 wins.

 

I'm willing to make moves that cost us 20 wins a year. I poo poo ideas that prevent us from improving our pitching or overall team in general.

 

Patience... Can we just get through the trade deadline. Before you start tossing the cargo of Cinnamon, Black Pepper or Silk overboard before you reach port on the trade route.

[glunn]

Another great post Brian. I agree with you that patience is the wisest approach to maximizing value here.

[diehardtwinsfan]

1. I am not a fan of Danny Valencia by any means but Trevor Plouffe was terrible to start the season as well, wasn't he? I don't really think the Twins should write him off at this point.

 

 

 

 

I don't think the Twins should write him off either. I think Velencia has to stop writing himself off. He needs to know these jobs are earned. Plouffe certainly was stinking up the joint. He got a job handed to him cuz there was no one else to turn to and he stopped swinging at crap and he grabbed the job with both hands. He fixed it in less than a month of full time duty... Velencia had over a year and it was getting worse. Still not fixed!

 

 

2. I find it almost ridiculous to think that Justin Morneau with $23 million left on his contract is going to be traded, especially with his current struggles and what appears to be some other injury (probably due to wear and tear of playing MORE THAN HE SHOULD). Look at his June numbers.

 

 

 

 

Can't argue with this too loudly. You may be right. However, your prophecy is much more self fulfilling if you kick him in the nuts. If Morneau gets Plouffe hot in July... A former MVP may change GM opinions. You want to give Velencia that chance to do a Plouffe but you won't give it to the guy who actually did it before. I cant see your thinking here. The Twins could also eat some contract to make a deal better. Eating some money to get a pitching prospect in return is better than eating some money because his splits are looking rough and you toss him aside. 14 million and a platoon. You might as well cut him cuz he will be worthless at that point.

 

3. I fail to see how doing this negates the Twins future in any way, especially given 2 above. Valencia is not simply some terrible player. And he has been very good against lefties. Morneau is a fundamentally different player post July 2010.

 

 

 

 

Velen is is not a terrible player he just plays terribly. You can call Velencia up... Let him fill the water jugs... I don't care. Velencia being called up does not negate the Twins future. He played his way into the water jug role. Velencia means very little in the baseball world right now.

 

You negate the Twins future by:

 

A. Pulling the plug on any future trade value for a former MVP.

B. If Morneau has no current trade value. He's a 2013 Twin for sure and hes making 14 million. Doesn't take a rocket scientist or zookeeper or radio DJ or any other smart person to realize that Justin Morneau is playing 1B next year. So a platoon isn't wise.

 

4. It always strikes me as odd when people poo-poo moves that might mean 1 win in a season (though I am not sure this would only be worth 1 win). If one does that 5 times, that's 5 wins.

 

 

 

 

I'm willing to make moves that cost us 20 wins a year. I poo poo ideas that prevent us from improving our pitching or overall team in general.

 

Patience... Can we just get through the trade deadline. Before you start tossing the cargo of Cinnamon, Black Pepper or Silk overboard before you reach port on the trade route.

maybe this got lost in the formatting, but I fail to see how trading Morneau right now would be a good move for either the present or future of this franchise. With 20some million still on that contract, no organization is going to give up much for the hope of him returning to spring of 2010 form. You may as well hold on to him and let him work through those issues... If he does, someone will trade something very nice for him at the deadline next year. If he doesn't, the worst you are doing is giving up a chance to aquire another team's Rene Tosani.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I fixed that post for you, Brian.

[Riverbrian]

I fixed that post for you, Brian.

 

Thank You... I had a devil of a time trying to make it work on IPAD. Much appreciated.

 

maybe this got lost in the formatting, but I fail to see how trading Morneau right now would be a good move for either the present or future of this franchise. With 20some million still on that contract, no organization is going to give up much for the hope of him returning to spring of 2010 form. You may as well hold on to him and let him work through those issues... If he does, someone will trade something very nice for him at the deadline next year. If he doesn't, the worst you are doing is giving up a chance to aquire another team's Rene Tosani.

 

If he has no trade value. He will be a Twin next year cuz he won't be cut. In that scenerio. You are absolutely right. Might as well see if he can work out his lefty pitcher kinks.

 

Here's a question... In your opinion... Would his trade value change at all if the Twins said they would pay the remainder of his contract? The whole thing.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Here's a question... In your opinion... Would his trade value change at all if the Twins said they would pay the remainder of his contract? The whole thing.

Yes, but not enough to bring in a prospect worth the money. Teams aren't going to leap at the opportunity to pick up a platoon option at first base, which is what Justin is to a contending team right now. I think the only thing to do with Justin is to wait, hope for the best, and then reevaluate your options in the offseason.

[Curt]

I understand the frustration with Morneau and Valencia. What I do not get is the optimism for Parmelee. At best, he looks to be a .250 hitter with 10-15 homer per year power. More likely, not even that. Valencia has shown he can hit lefties. Morneau is still hitting righties. As a hitter, Parmelee reminds me of Tom Kelly or, more optimistically, Butch Wynegar.

 

I don't know about a Morneau/Valencia platoon but I like the thinking. When mature major leaguers have specialized skills you exploit them to their fullest, when they have weaknesses, limit the opportunities for the opponent to exploit them. Whether you like the guy or not is pretty far down on the checklist.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I understand the frustration with Morneau and Valencia. What I do not get is the optimism for Parmelee. At best, he looks to be a .250 hitter with 10-15 homer per year power. More likely, not even that. Parmelee reminds me of Tom Kelly or, more optimistically, Butch Wynegar.

Parmelee is still 24 years old. After struggling in AA at 22 years old, he's starting to hit for more power again. In a brief AAA stint this season, he was raking. He's a good OBP guy with good patience. If he develops even middling power to go with it, he might be a viable option at first.

 

Again, he's only 24. If it comes down to a 24 year old who needs repetition and seasoning versus a 28 year old miscreant, you choose to give the ABs to the young guy with upside. No one is saying Parmelee is going to take over the world, we're simply saying that he deserves a chance to improve by playing every day in AAA. If he falls on his face, so be it... But at least you'll know what you have in the kid.

[Curt]

Parmelee is still 24 years old. After struggling in AA at 22 years old, he's starting to hit for more power again. In a brief AAA stint this season, he was raking. He's a good OBP guy with good patience. If he develops even middling power to go with it, he might be a viable option at first.

 

Again, he's only 24. If it comes down to a 24 year old who needs repetition and seasoning versus a 28 year old miscreant, you choose to give the ABs to the young guy with upside. No one is saying Parmelee is going to take over the world, we're simply saying that he deserves a chance to improve by playing every day in AAA. If he falls on his face, so be it... But at least you'll know what you have in the kid.

Well, I think we agree though for different reasons. Parmelee should be in the minors, hopefully developing. Valencia is who he is. Use him (correctly) or lose him.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Well, I think we agree though for different reasons. Parmelee should be in the minors, hopefully developing. Valencia is who he is. Use him (correctly) or lose him.

No, I think we're pretty much in complete agreement. I think Valencia should be in Minnesota, taking Parmelee's place while Chris gets reps in Rochester. That's your belief as well, no?

[Curt]

No, I think we're pretty much in complete agreement. I think Valencia should be in Minnesota, taking Parmelee's place while Chris gets reps in Rochester. That's your belief as well, no?

Yes. Glad that is cleared up.

[DaveW]

Whatever marginal prospect the Twins could get for Morneau at this point is not worth the PR backlash the team will receive from fans.

 

I know there are some people who want to go with the "gut the team completely and aim for 2014" but in reality you can't do that, you need fans to continue to have a reason to tune into games, come to games and buy merchandise for the rest of 2012 and into 2013.

[DPJ]

Whatever marginal prospect the Twins could get for Morneau at this point is not worth the PR backlash the team will receive from fans.

 

I know there are some people who want to go with the "gut the team completely and aim for 2014" but in reality you can't do that, you need fans to continue to have a reason to tune into games, come to games and buy merchandise for the rest of 2012 and into 2013.

You really think there would be a "PR backlash" for moving Morneau to better the team or get rid of his salary.

 

Fans aren't stupid, this is a bottom of the basement franchise right now and they won't be crawling themselves outta this hole for a couple years. Bettering the team should be the only goal this team has right now and if you have to trade some favorites then so be it.

 

Winning and winning quickly heals all.

[jctwins]

Fans aren't stupid.

I would beg to differ. See last night's game thread re: TV coverage and I think that's enough said.

[Riverbrian]

Yes, but not enough to bring in a prospect worth the money. Teams aren't going to leap at the opportunity to pick up a platoon option at first base, which is what Justin is to a contending team right now. I think the only thing to do with Justin is to wait, hope for the best, and then reevaluate your options in the offseason.

 

Waiting with Justin is exactly what I'm saying.

 

You say he won't bring in a prospect worth the 23 million dollar hit. Could be true right now... I don't know and I won't argue that.

 

However, you will be paying the 23 million regardless. His contract calls for it.

 

If you platoon him... You've made him a platoon player. Price $23 Million...

 

If you trade him and eat the entire contract... Price $23 million but maybe you get a prospect in return and you open up a job for Parmelee. You Spend the same money either way.

 

This team needs pitching. If we get the 16th rated prospect in an organization in return... That's OK... We need him.

 

Some people have said that the Red Sox got nothing in return for Youklis. Yeah Maybe.... But if Zach Stewart was with the Twins... He'd be starting Friday or Saturday against the Royals.

 

We Needs ARMS!!!!!!!!

 

I understand the frustration with Morneau and Valencia. What I do not get is the optimism for Parmelee. At best, he looks to be a .250 hitter with 10-15 homer per year power. More likely, not even that. Valencia has shown he can hit lefties. Morneau is still hitting righties. As a hitter, Parmelee reminds me of Tom Kelly or, more optimistically, Butch Wynegar.

 

I don't know about a Morneau/Valencia platoon but I like the thinking. When mature major leaguers have specialized skills you exploit them to their fullest, when they have weaknesses, limit the opportunities for the opponent to exploit them. Whether you like the guy or not is pretty far down on the checklist.

 

Velencia lost his job to no one! He had a job and he lost it all by himself. He was given every opportunity to keep it and he dropped it. Will Middlebrooks didn't show up and take his job. He simply lost his job at a time when the Twins did not have a decent option.

 

The Twins said... They would rather have nobody play 3B than trot Velencia out there again. If this doesn't speak loudly to the observing fan. I don't know what will.

 

Platooning him with a 14 million dollar ex MVP is about as crazy as it gets no matter what the splits say.

 

Parmelee needs to play every day... He's the closest thing we have to a future 1B or DH in Minnesota. Send him Down in the next 30 seconds or so please!