Souhan: Hunter better value than Mauer

[gunnarthor]

http://www.startribune.com/souhan-a-tale-of-two-twins-deals-mauer-vs-hunter/303838801/

 

Nothing really earth shattering in this -  Souhan doesn't say that Hunter is the better player since 2008 but that, for his salary, he's been a better value and it's not hard to argue with that.

 

He could have gone farther if he wanted to and said that Hunter's age 35-39 seasons have been about as good as Mauer's age 28-32 seasons.  But he didn't. 

 

Regardless, the Twins owe Mauer nearly 70m yet and it doesn't look like he'll age as well as Hunter has.  Although, to his credit this year, he's remained on the field a lot more.

[D. Hocking]

Not that I disagree with what he wrote, but isn't this about the 8000th piece Souhan has written on Mauer and/or Hunter (including one yesterday)?  Plus this one seems esp. designed to generate a lot of rabid comments (which - to be fair is probably what the paper wants).  

 

One of my bigger issues with Souhan is that how he likes or dislikes a player personally seems to really play into his columns.  It is only natural that this happens to some degree, but with Souhan it sometimes reaches the point of being unprofessional.  I have heard him blast a player or gush over a player for reasons other than their play on the radio and then read an article where those personal feelings are not exactly suppressed later one too many times. There is sometimes a touch of a personal vendetta or a touch of favoritism in some of his articles.

 

I do understand Torii is a great story right now and definitely worth some print in the paper (I was against the signing, but will happily eat crow if he remains consistent the entire year),  I guess I probably have a lower Souhan tolerance threshold.

[MileHighTwinsFan]

So tired of the Joe bashing. 

 

Joe got his payday at the top of the market.  He was happy, we were happy.  

 

Has he become the hitter we all dreamed he would be - probably not.  But how many players out there could have met the expectations we placed on this kid?   Not many.

 

What we have is a guy who is going to continue to play solid and reliable baseball for years to come. I will take that to the bank.  

 

 

[Monkeypaws]

Ah, the ones that got away:

 

http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/cdc65b2031fdd31f2d061a4cb77270db0c911b20/c=0-65-1449-1150&r=x383&c=540x380/local/-/media/USATODAY/USATODAY/2013/10/17/1382063101001-2013-10-18-hunter-ortiz.jpg

[gunnarthor]

 

Not that I disagree with what he wrote, but isn't this about the 8000th piece Souhan has written on Mauer and/or Hunter (including one yesterday)?  Plus this one seems esp. designed to generate a lot of rabid comments (which - to be fair is probably what the paper wants).  

 

One of my bigger issues with Souhan is that how he likes or dislikes a player personally seems to really play into his columns.  It is only natural that this happens to some degree, but with Souhan it sometimes reaches the point of being unprofessional.  I have heard him blast a player or gush over a player for reasons other than their play on the radio and then read an article where those personal feelings are not exactly suppressed later one too many times. There is sometimes a touch of a personal vendetta or a touch of favoritism in some of his articles.

 

I do understand Torii is a great story right now and definitely worth some print in the paper (I was against the signing, but will happily eat crow if he remains consistent the entire year),  I guess I probably have a lower Souhan tolerance threshold.

 

I actually got banned from TD once for making fun of Aaron Gleeman so you have to be careful when talking about opinion writers but I've always liked Souhan and Reusse while absolutely despising Dan Barreiro.  I get that they are opinion writers and trying to get page views/hits etc and I can see why they can tick some people off.

 

That said, I really don't mind Souhan and I think Mauer is more than deserving of the criticism this draws.  

[Thrylos]

As usually, Souhan conveniently forgets some things:

 

 

 

He would have signed with the Twins for less than he received from the Angels, so it’s possible that, had he stayed with the Twins, he may have cost them closer to $100 million or $110 million for the past seven-plus seasons.

 

Fact:  The Twins did make him an offer, that was close in annual value to the Angels' but less in years.  Hunter had the choice to stay with the Twins for fair money, but he chose to get more money from another team.

 

No he would have not signed with the Twins for less, because he did not, while had the opportunity and the offer on the table.

 

Anything else is Souhan's wishful thinking/dreaming/fantasy.

 

Why doesn't he write that Worley was a better value than Pelfrey and Liriano a better value than Nolasco, at least Ryan had a chance to keep those...

 

Edit:  Souhan should had read this and this before he wrote that.

[Boom Boom]

This is just Souhan trashing down Mauer and at the same time kissing up to Hunter. Why he compares those two particular players is baffling to me.

 

Is Hunter a better value than Mauer? Yes... but 50% or more of MLB players are better values that Mauer for the cost. There's also players who are better values than Hunter, and others who are worse values than Mauer. That Souhan chooses Hunter and Mauer as some kind of dichotomy just smacks of Souhan's own rubelike favoritism.

[Jham]

 

So tired of the Joe bashing. 

 

Joe got his payday at the top of the market.  He was happy, we were happy.  

 

Has he become the hitter we all dreamed he would be - probably not.  But how many players out there could have met the expectations we placed on this kid?   Not many.

 

What we have is a guy who is going to continue to play solid and reliable baseball for years to come. I will take that to the bank.  

I guess it depends on your definition of "solid and reliable".  As far as solid goes, Mauer hit .277 last year, is hitting .274 this year with OPS of .732 and .699 respectively, and with 4 and 0 HR, respectively.  These numbers are about on par with Nick Punto's best seasons with the Twins.  Punto provided great defense, position flexibility and speed on the bases.  Mauer is generously, average at first base and no threat to steal a base.  We also batted Punto 8th or 9th, and not 3rd.  

Mauer needs to get on one of his patented 2 month terrors where he hits everything on a line, if he has that left in him.  If he's a mid .270's type hitter with no power at a corner position, he's a liability, and that's without factoring in his contract (which means we will have to stay with Joe no matter the production while someone like Sano, Vargas, Pinto, or Plouffe will get traded).
 

[Brandon]

the Twins offered 45 million to the Angels 90 Million guarantee.  That is a no brainer.  yes 3 year 15 per year vs 18 million for 5 but there was no guarantee Hunter would get much after the 3 years from the Twins.  and besides Hunter was looking for a 4 year guarantee back then to guarantee he would play in target field.  The Twins didn't bite and Hunter left. 

[Boom Boom]

Also... when Jim S. says Hunter would have stayed with the Twins for less money than he got from Anaheim, who told him that?

 

'Cause if it was Torii, Torii says a lot of... stuff.

[DaveW]

Print is dead.

[markos]

 

Nothing really earth shattering in this -  Souhan doesn't say that Hunter is the better player since 2008 but that, for his salary, he's been a better value and it's not hard to argue with that.

Actually, he does argue that Hunter has been the better player, both explicitly and implicitly:

"As the Twins return to Target Field for a weekend series, they are surprisingly competitive. This has more to do with Hunter’s return to the team than Mauer’s ongoing presence. Given how the two have performed since Hunter left the franchise, maybe we shouldn’t be surprised."

"In short, the older player known for running into fences has been more durable and productive."

"In addition to being more productive, ..."

 

I didn't read anything in the article to suggest that Souhan was making the nuanced take that Mauer has been the better player, but factoring in cost makes Hunter more value. He is explicitly stating that Hunter has been both more productive and more valuable. 

[Thrylos]

 

Hunter was looking for a 4 year guarantee back then to guarantee he would play in target field. 

 

That's another (2 I Torii-serving) fairytale

If that were his motivation, a 3-year would had been enough:

2008, 2009, 2010.   He would had played at Target Field the last year of his 3-year contract.

His motivation was $.

Wonder what excuse Hunter (and his defenders) have for him returning to the AL Central and playing for the strongest team in the Twins' division, other than $? 

 

[Jham]

 

As usually, Souhan conveniently forgets some things:

 

 

 

 

Fact:  The Twins did make him an offer, that was close in annual value to the Angels' but less in years.  Hunter had the choice to stay with the Twins for fair money, but he chose to get more money from another team.

 

No he would have not signed with the Twins for less, because he did not, while had the opportunity and the offer on the table.

 

Anything else is Souhan's wishful thinking/dreaming/fantasy.

 

Why doesn't he write that Worley was a better value than Pelfrey and Liriano a better value than Nolasco, at least Ryan had a chance to keep those...

 

Edit:  Souhan should had read this and this before he wrote that.

 

I hate Souhan's writing.  He's usually wrong, he's reactionary, and he's bitter.  He has a superiority complex and a chip on his shoulder.  He believes that no one else can do his job, even though most of the posters on this site could.  He resents the success of others, especially athletes.  He has taken shots at Randy Moss for being off-putting with the media, then retiring from the NFL and taking a job with the media.  

That being said, the criticism of Mauer and more specifically, his contract is legitimate.  The Pioneer Press article you cited is exactly what I remembered: that Torii Hunter wanted to stay, that he wanted to re-sign prior to his final contract year.  This is a huge HUGE deal for players.  Playing out your contract means you have no insurance policy if you get hurt and your career ends.  Your only reward for taking that risk is unrestricted free-agency.  

I strongly believe that Hunter would have taken a substantial discount if we would have extended him prior to his final year.  Santana said the same thing: Sign me before my final year, or contract negotiations end.  

Making a guy sweat out an entire off-season, play almost his entire contract year without an extention, then asking for discount with a month to go in the season is plain disrespectful for a player of Hunter's caliber and for what he did for the organization. You think he should have taken half as much money from a team that refused to extend him prior to the season?  

 

Ryan handled the Hunter situation completely wrong, and he knew it.  Coincidently, a month later, he resigned. Perhaps you should read this: http://www.twincities.com/minnesota/ci_6883159

 

As an aside, the notion of "hometown discount" is way overblown.  Players take less money to reduce the risk of getting injured or seeing production drop while playing out the contract.  It benefits the player at least as often as it benefits the team.

 

 

[Thrylos]

One more Fact:

 

This.

 

This makes Souhan's story totally garbage, and makes the STrib editor who decided to print it look pretty bad...

[TheLeviathan]

I don't find much merit in Souhan's thesis, but I think it's fair to say Mauer has not sustained even pessimistic levels of production that we had hoped for his early 30s seasons.  That's the disappointing part, but resigning him was still the only smart choice.

[Willihammer]

http://www.twinkietown.com/2015/5/15/8610901/souhan-torii-hunters-smile-could-take-joe-mauers-beard-in-a-fight

[gunnarthor]

 

Actually, he does argue that Hunter has been the better player, both explicitly and implicitly:

"As the Twins return to Target Field for a weekend series, they are surprisingly competitive. This has more to do with Hunter’s return to the team than Mauer’s ongoing presence. Given how the two have performed since Hunter left the franchise, maybe we shouldn’t be surprised."

"In short, the older player known for running into fences has been more durable and productive."

"In addition to being more productive, ..."

 

I didn't read anything in the article to suggest that Souhan was making the nuanced take that Mauer has been the better player, but factoring in cost makes Hunter more value. He is explicitly stating that Hunter has been both more productive and more valuable. 

Probably not worth squabbling over.  I read durable and productive to mean that Hunter had the advantage over Mauer in games played and counting stats (HR/RBI/H etc).  Souhan mentioned that Mauer had the better rate stats.  

 

And the larger point remains, for everyone who hated Hunter on a one year deal, Mauer should be public enemy number one.  Unlike Hunter, Mauer is actually potentially blocking younger guys like Pinto.  And, unlike Hunter, he's locked up for several more years.  The defensive numbers don't like him much.  He's basically a replacement level player right now.

[Linus]

I don't really get the point of comparing the two other than to conveniently pick two people that will get a reaction from readers.

 

One thing I think should be clear: Torii is a master at telling people what they want to hear - that is why so many people love him.  He's all about the money and the idea that he was going to take less to stay with the Twins is just not a reasonable premise nor proven in any way by anything other than what Torii might say (see above).  IMO, the reason he is here this year is that nobody else was going to come close to $10million on a one year deal. 

 

And for the record, I have no problem with going for the money.  Nor am I particularly bothered by TR signing him to the one year deal.

[Willihammer]

 

I actually got banned from TD once for making fun of Aaron Gleeman so you have to be careful when talking about opinion writers but I've always liked Souhan and Reusse while absolutely despising Dan Barreiro.  I get that they are opinion writers and trying to get page views/hits etc and I can see why they can tick some people off.

 

That said, I really don't mind Souhan and I think Mauer is more than deserving of the criticism this draws.  

Souhan and Barreiro do the exact same thing: get bored, find a smoldering controversy, fan it back into blaze, get the rubes riled up  for clicks / listeners.

 

http://www.startribune.com/souhan-mauer-proves-worthy-of-big-salary-he-draws-from-twins/211705101/

 

 

The problem with being a frustrated Twins fan these days is that you want to complain, but most common complaints are nonsensical.

Spend more money? That hardly ever works. The Twins could have excited their fan base by signing Josh Hamilton or Albert Pujols, and they’d already regret it.

Blame it all on Mauer? He’s an excellent, healthy player in his prime who plays every day. Blaming him for the Twins’ losing is like blaming the Titanic’s orchestra leader.

Blame Ron Gardenhire? He has mediocre talent. Know what Joe Torre or Jim Leyland would have done after managing the 2012 Twins? Retired.

Blame Terry Ryan? Most of the GM’s acquisitions have either been excellent or logical. Josh Willingham, Ryan Doumit and Jared Burton were worthwhile bargains. Alex Meyer and Trevor May could be front-line starters.

The only cure to the Twins’ malaise is the one that causes fans the most anguish: patience. The Twins will be good again not when they spend wildly or start firing people, but when their best prospects reach and adapt to the majors.

There is no way to speed that process, not even if you have a billion dollar bill burning a hole in your pocket.

Souhan has flip flopped before on Mauer's contract and I'm sure he'll flip flop again. Mauer's fans are always going to be divided on the contract so Souhan (and Barreiro) are going to keep going back to that well depending on how the wind blows. I feel defeated even commenting on it anymore.

[DaveW]

After re-reading it, there is just no way that Souhan can believe one word of what he is saying, he is just falling back on the old "let's toss out a hots sports opinion" to get  the views/conversation buzzing. Sports radio hosts (the original trolls) have been doing it for decades, so no surprise here.

 

Hell, look at Twinsdaily now even (a place that has much higher levels of conversation/discourse then 99% of the web) the most popular/viewed topic is that genius think piece that some troll wrote titled "stick a fork in Hunter he is done" HSO's (Hot sports opinions) make the world go around.

With all that said, its hard to get too worked up over Souhan's article, and in fact the only time I ever read Souhan (or anyone else in the papers besides Russo) is when someone posts a link to it on these forums. If you really don't like Souhan, the best thing you can do is stop driving eyeballs to his drivel, because the fact is: If his article gets 5x more reads then a typical Strib column, he will start churning out more and more of it.

[Jham]

 

One more Fact:

 

This.

 

This makes Souhan's story totally garbage, and makes the STrib editor who decided to print it look pretty bad...

 

Again, and I can't believe I'm defending Souhan, but his points have merit.  Gleeman's stats compare Hunter with Mauer when he was winning batting titles and MVP's.  Mauer had 1 outlier year with a bunch of very good years.  Without a doubt Hunter was been productive through every contract he's signed.  But what will we say about Mauer in 2018?  Any discussion of extending Mauer vs. Hunter is flawed if it doesn't account for the following: that both could have been signed, and that Mauer is still under contract for 3 more seasons.  Throw his next three seasons in at his current production level and then compare the contracts.

I my opinion the FO should have extended Hunter early and extended Mauer earlier.  Alternatively, they could have waited with Mauer rather than panicking and signing him after his predictably unsustainable MVP season. I'm not sure either decision was decidedly crippling, but both were poorly handled from my point of view.

[DaveW]

 

And the larger point remains, for everyone who hated Hunter on a one year deal, Mauer should be public enemy number one.  Unlike Hunter, Mauer is actually potentially blocking younger guys like Pinto.  And, unlike Hunter, he's locked up for several more years.  The defensive numbers don't like him much.  He's basically a replacement level player right now.

That larger point doesn't remain, because when Mauer signed his deal and when Hunter signed his deal they were in completely different circumstances.

 

Mauer was still in the prime of his career and playing like a perennial MVP type player at one of the most important/hardest positions in baseball, I don't think anyone thought the Twins got a bargain in his deal (even at the time) but it made sense to lock up one of the best 5 players in franchise history long term in the prime of his career. Hunter was signed as a 39 year old free agent (he is currently the oldest every day positional player in the MLB) coming off a year where his defense was poor and his offense declined (though to be fair was still decent) additionally Hunter plays the least important position in baseball where there is a lot more supply then versus CF, C, SS, 2B etc.

Now, if Mauer's contract had ended at the end of 2014, and the Twins signed him for 2015-2018 for 20 million a year or so, THEN the comparison would be accurate.

[nicksaviking]

As usually, Souhan conveniently forgets some things:

 

 

 

 

 

Fact: The Twins did make him an offer, that was close in annual value to the Angels' but less in years. Hunter had the choice to stay with the Twins for fair money, but he chose to get more money from another team.

 

No he would have not signed with the Twins for less, because he did not, while had the opportunity and the offer on the table.

 

Anything else is Souhan's wishful thinking/dreaming/fantasy.

 

Why doesn't he write that Worley was a better value than Pelfrey and Liriano a better value than Nolasco, at least Ryan had a chance to keep those...

 

Edit: Souhan should had read this and this before he wrote that.

There has never been any substantial evidence and certainly nothing confirmed, that the Twins even offered Hunter a contract. Any rumor suggesting so says the Twins offered three, maybe four years, something the Angels topped.

 

When Hunter continually said he wanted a long term deal because he didn't want to deal with trade speculations every other year (which kept occurring after signing his initial extension) his issue seems pretty clear, he wanted security in the length of the deal. The Twins weren't offering that.

[jimmer]

"I didn't want to leave the Twins," Hunter said. "I just felt like they were ready to leave me. They thought I was too old to do a five-year deal."

Hunter rejected the Twins' three-year, $45 million offer in August. Three months passed without a new proposal.'

 

http://www.startribune.com/torii-hunter-i-didn-t-want-to-leave-the-twins/11923236/

[Thrylos]

 

Again, and I can't believe I'm defending Souhan, but his points have merit.  Gleeman's stats compare Hunter with Mauer when he was winning batting titles and MVP's.

 

Gleeman's stats compare Mauer's and Hunter's production, since Hunter left the Twins (2008) which is exactly the time frame of Souhan's argument...  

[gunnarthor]

 

One more Fact:

 

This.

 

This makes Souhan's story totally garbage, and makes the STrib editor who decided to print it look pretty bad...

 

Admittedly, I haven't had to do math in 20 years but that doesn't seem right.  Since 2008, Mauer has amassed 32 WAR to Hunter's 24.  That 8 WAR difference can't equate to 60%.  (Even if we think WAR is a valid stat to use) It's about 25% more, isn't it?

 

And I'm having the same problem with the salary.  In that time period, Mauer has made 144.25m to Hunter's 126m.  That 18m is a lot more than 5% of Hunter's salary.  Isn't it around 15% more?

[DaveW]

 

Admittedly, I haven't had to do math in 20 years but that doesn't seem right.  Since 2008, Mauer has amassed 32 WAR to Hunter's 24.  That 8 WAR difference can't equate to 60%.  (Even if we think WAR is a valid stat to use) It's about 25% more, isn't it?

 

And I'm having the same problem with the salary.  In that time period, Mauer has made 144.25m to Hunter's 126m.  That 18m is a lot more than 5% of Hunter's salary.  Isn't it around 15% more?

30.9 to 19.1 WAR is what he was likely using (Fangraphs WAR) you are using bWAR.

 

Also Mauer made 121.25 million from 2008 to the end of 2014, I'm guessing he hasn't included 2015 yet because we aren't even 1/4th through the season. But Hunter made 105.5 million during that time, so it looks like Mr Gleemans numbers are off on that end. (I thought 5% seemed really really small)

[JustinCB]

 

I really don't mind Souhan 

 

 

 

He's a hack!  

[Highabove]

Jim Souhan reached rock bottom several years ago in a column he wrote about Gopher Football Coach Jerry Kill. In the Article, Souhan went out of his way to make fun of Coach Kill's epilepsy with the following comments.

 

"Kill suffers a seizure on game day as the coach of the Gophers at TCF Bank Stadium exactly as often as he wins a Big Ten game."

 "No one who buys a ticket to TCF Bank Stadium should be rewarded with the sight of a middle-aged man writhing on the ground." 

 

This tells you all you need to know about Jim Souhan. Needless to say, the Tribune issued an apology. Souhan's nastiness towards a number of Twins Players is par for the course.

 

Souhan: In category of health, Kill falls too short to continue - StarTribune.com