Twins Front Office to Learn Spanish

[jokin]

Well, given the number of Cubans you've signed in the last 5 or so years, since the new revenue streams......the only conclusion I can draw from your question is that he's telling you they all are not worth the money.....which has clearly NOT been true.

 

are you suggesting you are somehow using them?

 

Pretty cold, Mike.  (I love it, and I'm sure Jack is used to the cold shoulder).

[Pius Jefferson]

He was talking about Cuban cigars not Cuban baseball players.

[Otto von Ballpark]

You don't think we use Tony's Cuban ties?

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/281074/120860662/stock-photo-cuba-cuban-flag-on-a-bow-tie-120860662.jpg

[DocBauer]

Sometime in the last few days I saw a tweet of a photo of a staffer working with 3 of the younger Latin players on their blurbs for the media guide.

 

We tend to forget how many facets there are to the front office.

 

"I'm just glad to be here and help out the team. The good lord willing, it will all work out. A good friend of mine once said: this is an easy game. You throw the ball, you hit the ball, you catch the ball. Sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. Sometimes....it rains. Think about that."

 

Espanol version por favor? LOL

[DocBauer]

I like that they are making a move like this but they have a few more to make.  The highest level that they have a hispanic manager is in the GCL (Ramon Borrego).  The highest level they have a hispanic pitching coach is A+ ball (Ivan Arteaga).  The highest level they have a hitting coach that is hispanic is in the GCL (Riccardo Ingram).  Rather than going outside the org to take a 57 year old outfield instructor for the Yankees (Mike Quade) to coach AAA maybe they could have looked to add a little diversity to the upper minors to better reflect their prospect makeup.  

 

Great post! Agree 100%. Although technically, with Hernandez on the ML staff, he would be the highest ranking coach in the system. (not including Carew or Oliva in their various capacities.) I was actually a little surprised Ingram wasn't the choice for the ML club.

 

In partial defense of the Twins, I believe Ingram has been as high as AA, even fairly recently. They do seem to rotate their manager and coaches every few seasons for different voices and perspectives at different levels.

[nicksaviking]

You don't think we use Tony's Cuban ties?

 

That's great.  You'll have to forgive us (me) for our naivete as even diehard fans never hear of any rumors of the team trying to sign Cuban players.  If that's not the case, I appologize and am more than happy to be inaccurate on the subject.

[jharaldson]

Great post! Agree 100%. Although technically, with Hernandez on the ML staff, he would be the highest ranking coach in the system. (not including Carew or Oliva in their various capacities.) I was actually a little surprised Ingram wasn't the choice for the ML club.

 

In partial defense of the Twins, I believe Ingram has been as high as AA, even fairly recently. They do seem to rotate their manager and coaches every few seasons for different voices and perspectives at different levels.

 

I was only evaluating positions that exist in all levels of the org (Manager, Hitting Coach, Pitching Coach).  Assistant Hitting Coach does not exist at any level besides the MLB, and not even there until a few years ago, which is why I excluded that position.  

 

I made the same mistake you did on Ingram which Jack corrected me on a few posts ago, he is not Hispanic and is from GA but I agree he has served on most of the Twins MiLB coaching staffs.

[Mike Sixel]

I was not trying to be cold, if it came off that way, apologies. I just don't know what other conclusion to reach, given the outcomes.

[Squirrel]

I was not trying to be cold, if it came off that way, apologies. I just don't know what other conclusion to reach, given the outcomes.

So, just because the Twins don't sign a particular player, it's because they didn't try?  That might be true of a given player, and they have their reasons, but sometimes your comments come across as this being the answer whenever they don't 'appear' to go after a particular player we all want.  Just because we don't know the internal workings of the front office doesn't mean they aren't doing 'stuff.'  There are a whole host of reasons why any front office, ours included, can't, won't and don't divulge details of just what they are doing and why; and yes, sometimes it gets frustrating to not know all the whys and wherefores, and we are left to speculate.  Speculation can be fun, but when your speculation turns suspicious or accusatory every single time, it just does not do you justice because I know your mind to be way better than that.

[Mike Sixel]

they have not signed one Cuban player in the last five years........have they?

 

So, either they don't want to, or have somehow failed every time. I don't think of them as consistent failures, therefore I conclude they don't want to. I could be wrong, it is conceivable that they have failed every single time to achieve their goal. But, I really don't want to think that of them. I prefer to conclude that they just have not really wanted to sign Cuban players. That seems like a much nicer conclusion to me.

[Squirrel]

they have not signed one Cuban player in the last five years........have they?

 

So, either they don't want to, or have somehow failed every time. I don't think of them as consistent failures, therefore I conclude they don't want to. I could be wrong, it is conceivable that they have failed every single time to achieve their goal. But, I really don't want to think that of them. I prefer to conclude that they just have not really wanted to sign Cuban players. That seems like a much nicer conclusion to me.

Or, maybe it's a combination ... they haven't wanted to for a number of reasons, not just because they haven't wanted to, or they couldn't reach an agreement, or they knew they would be outbid and didn't want to go that high, or it fell through, or ... again ... there could be many reasons for this and narrowing down your reasons adds to your frustration.  While there are things I don't like about the front office, accusing them of something based solely on appearances and on something you know nothing about, is a little petty, imo.

[Otto von Ballpark]

So, just because the Twins don't sign a particular player, it's because they didn't try?  That might be true of a given player, and they have their reasons, but sometimes your comments come across as this being the answer whenever they don't 'appear' to go after a particular player we all want.  Just because we don't know the internal workings of the front office doesn't mean they aren't doing 'stuff.'  There are a whole host of reasons why any front office, ours included, can't, won't and don't divulge details of just what they are doing and why; and yes, sometimes it gets frustrating to not know all the whys and wherefores, and we are left to speculate.  Speculation can be fun, but when your speculation turns suspicious or accusatory every single time, it just does not do you justice because I know your mind to be way better than that.

It's not a particular player, it's basically any Cuban.  When was the last time the Twins signed a Cuban player?  Or even had a reported offer to one?  Was Oliva himself the last?  (No, Kendrys Morales doesn't count. )

 

Unless Tony Oliva's advice has been not to aggressively pursue ANY Cuban player, ever (in which case it has probably been bad advice many times), I have a hard time seeing any effect here.  One might as well say that Dan Gladden has helped us make inroads into Japan (heck, at least we signed Nishioka and were a verified bidder for Iwakuma).

[Otto von Ballpark]

Or, maybe it's a combination ... they haven't wanted to for a number of reasons, not just because they haven't wanted to, or they couldn't reach an agreement, or they knew they would be outbid and didn't want to go that high, or it fell through, or ... again ... there could be many reasons for this and narrowing down your reasons adds to your frustration.  While there are things I don't like about the front office, accusing them of something based solely on appearances and on something you know nothing about, is a little petty, imo.

Again, this isn't an isolated trend.  I think we're at 50 years of Twins Cuban inactivity, and the last 10 years MLB as a whole has been pretty active in this regard.

 

The Twins themselves have admitted their Latin American budget/operations weren't up to snuff prior to about 2007-2008 or so.  I don't think it's a stretch at all to say it is likely still limited when it comes to the one "closed" country in that region.

[Mike Sixel]

I'm curious how they have used his connections, then.

 

Because in 50 years, it has led to zero signings. What conclusion should I reach about those connections?

[jimmer]

I'm curious how they have used his connections, then.

 

Because in 50 years, it has led to zero signings. What conclusion should I reach about those connections?

to borrow from Chief, 'we can't give our money away?' :-)

[gunnarthor]

I think we, as fans, might be over valuing Cuba's talent.  I think we all think that we're passing on Jose Abreau but, looking at Wikipiedia's list (which I doubt is complete), over 30 players from Cuba have defected and signed w/ML teams since 2010.  Less than a third of them have made the majors and only a couple of them have been worth their salary at this point.  Cespedes is a nice player but I'm not sure he was worth 4/36 deal he got.

 

I do wish the Twins had some more success signing players from Cuba and Japan b/c those players are not subject to the international pool ML established.  But the Twins still have a budget and maybe the Pohlad's don't give them much money to play with in that regard - we know the Pohlads have been supporters of Selig and Selig didn't appreciate the crazy spending on Cuban players.  

 

The Twins obviously have done a lot of work in the international areas (give a lot of credit to Bill Smith).  Perhaps, with the new international restrictions in place the last few years, things will change.  It's also worth noting that teams can be good in one place (Domincan Republic) and have nearly no impact in other areas (Panama), for instance.  So maybe where these Cuban players actually defect to might impact who they sign with.  In any event, my guess is that the Twins have set a certain value to Cuban players and other teams have over valued them more.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think we, as fans, might be over valuing Cuba's talent.  I think we all think that we're passing on Jose Abreau but, looking at Wikipiedia's list (which I doubt is complete), over 30 players from Cuba have defected and signed w/ML teams since 2010.  Less than a third of them have made the majors and only a couple of them have been worth their salary at this point.  Cespedes is a nice player but I'm not sure he was worth 4/36 deal he got.

I think you are over-estimating the actual salary most of these guys got.  Basically all of the big signings ($20+ mil) have been worth it so far (yes, even Cespedes, averaging 3.2 WAR a season, is worth 4/36), pending the most recent ones.  Leonys Martin only got 5/15 and he's been an above league average CF.  Alexei Ramirez got 4/4.75 and he's been an above league average SS.  Yunel Escobar defected, was a 2nd round draft pick, and was an above-league average SS for peanuts for awhile.  Kendrys Morales signed for 4/6.5, and this was when he was actually good.  Yuniesky Betancourt was an average-ish SS for a few seasons after signing for less than $3 mil.

 

Seems like if the Twins had any real modern "Cuban ties" they would have taken a shot on some player at these modest prices.

[diehardtwinsfan]

'would have taken a shot' does not equal signing a guy.  That, I think, is problem number 1 with this debate.  One does not equal the other.

 

Problem number 2 with this debate are the league's tampering rules, that do allow them to comment on what they are/are not doing.

 

Problem number 3 is that for most of this time, they were on a Metrodome budget and there was way too much risk to go with the reward (and by proxy, I think we can safely assume they weren't in on them during that time).

 

In all, this is a lot of arguing about something that quite frankly none of us can prove either way.  We don't know who they were and were not in on, and I highly doubt that we will ever find out.  I think we all would have loved for them to get Abreau, and I personally have stated that I think they should break the bank for Moncada, so I'm not here saying we shouldn't do it.  But at the end of the day, we are arguing about stuff that NO ONE CAN PROVE.  It can be a fun discussion, but at one point, I'd advise people to simply move on.

 

Side note (and a mod note), but in the rare occurrence that a person from the team or front office chooses to post in a thread, I'd strongly recommend people read their posts very carefully and ensure a higher standard of respect than what we mods enforce around here.  They are under no obligation to post here.  Their presence here adds a tremendous perspective to this site and you cannot find it anywhere else.  Approaching them in a combative or abrasive manner is a good way to ensure that they don't return.  I'm not saying not to disagree, but I am saying that there were some really poor examples in this thread about how to do it. 

[gunnarthor]

I think you are over-estimating the actual salary most of these guys got.  Basically all of the big signings ($20+ mil) have been worth it so far (yes, even Cespedes, averaging 3.2 WAR a season, is worth 4/36), pending the most recent ones.  Leonys Martin only got 5/15 and he's been an above league average CF.  Alexei Ramirez got 4/4.75 and he's been an above league average SS.  Yunel Escobar defected, was a 2nd round draft pick, and was an above-league average SS for peanuts for awhile.  Kendrys Morales signed for 4/6.5, and this was when he was actually good.  Yuniesky Betancourt was an average-ish SS for a few seasons after signing for less than $3 mil.

 

Seems like if the Twins had any real modern "Cuban ties" they would have taken a shot on some player at these modest prices.

A few of those signings you listed were before the international pool rules.  The Twins were more active elsewhere.  I wish the Twins had signed Morales in 2005 but that isn't really the time frame Mike had brought up.  That said, I think you missed the general point I was trying to make but I think diehard did a better job of that anyway.

[jokin]

http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/281074/120860662/stock-photo-cuba-cuban-flag-on-a-bow-tie-120860662.jpg

 

http://rlv.zcache.com/cuba_custom_tie-r645b810c879b42ddbf9555d2b31aede3_v9whb_8byvr_324.jpg

 

There was even more than one option to choose from...

[Otto von Ballpark]

Mild correction: the Twins did sign one Cuban defector, Dennis Suarez in 2011 (when Bill Smith was still at the helm).  He washed out pretty quickly, and given how little it was reported, it must have been one of the more low-level Cuban signings.  (Would be curious to hear more about him and how he came to the Twins.)

 

I still stand by my conclusion that the Twins have not been particularly active or effective in Cuba.  I am normally very receptive to the "we'll just never know" argument, but not in this context -- the sample of years and players is just too large, and the cost relative to the Twins MLB payroll has been low since 2003.  And the Twins themselves have admitted that before 2008 or so, they weren't particularly effective in any part of Latin America -- it logically follows that they would be least active/effective in by far the most closed country in the region (and that problem could persist as long as the country remained closed).  They also weren't active/effective procuring any outside FA talent (including domestic MLB FAs) until the last few years -- and Cuban defectors are probably the most "outside FA" you can get.

 

From my cursory research, it seems that only the Rockies have done less in terms of procuring Cuban talent over the last 12 years.  The Twins are probably bottom 5 in this regard.

 

It's not a diss on Oliva's Cuban ties either.  He's a great guy and an asset to the organization in many ways, but I wouldn't expect any 1960's ballplayer to have much notable recruiting power/ability in his home region in the 21st century.  Especially when the player wasn't notable when he left his home region, and that region has been famously closed off from the US since, and the player's return visits to that region have been extremely limited (every three years?) or barred altogether for the last 50 years.