Mackey: The Deterioration of the Twins

[jokin]

 

Also, I am a fan of Bruno and Molitor. I was a fan of Steinbach, but this whole Pinto thing and Fryer nonsense has me really wondering. I would be happy keeping the first two, making Dougie the manager, and finding another pitching coach and bench coach.

Doesn't the Pinto thing have Gardy's fingerprints all over it (there is a "history" with Latin catchers)?  All the way up the organization, Pinto was billed as a hard worker, always eager to improve, and now he's apparently virtually unplayable, and just to make sure he's set up to fail, he was made Deduno's personal caddy.  How much of this is really on Steinbach?

[Platoon]

Do you think anyone in the organization expects to win? Players, front office...manager? Fans? Media?

Losing culture.

I think they "hope" to win, which sounds great but is a HUGE difference between expect to win. For example Derek Jeter expects to win, Brian Dozier hopes to win!

[Platoon]

Mackey said:

 

 "The accountability lies somewhere."

 

So where?  Everyone keeps their jobs? Maybe a scapegoat or two but nearly everyone will keep the nice pay checks coming. We'll hear all the excuses, like the last couple falls, as to why it's really no ones fault.

 

My guess is that Molitor will not come back and maybe one of but not both Ullger or Vavra will be gone and Andy stays.

Which would be akin to me painting over the rust on my old pickup!

[nicksaviking]

Bad talent.

 

 

Losing culture.

 

If no one can pin point the problem, then the organization needs to hedge their bets and wash the whole slate clean, or as much as possible.  Otherwise we just put oursevles in a cycle of continual second guessing, wondering if it's perhaps the other factor in the equation that is causing the failure. 

 

Sorry, innocent parties my be negatively affected, but we need to be looking at the bigger picture.  If you come home to find the window broken and both of your kids say the other did it, they both get grounded until someone comes clean.  In this situation, EVERYONE seems willing to take the blame, that doesn't mean there should be no consequences!  This seems like it should be a very, very easy decision.  Sorry it's harsh, but too much damage has been done and the kids do not look to have the ability to fix the window themselves.

[Siehbiscuit]

While we are in "fire everyone" mode, can we somehow get Bert out of the booth? I'd rather listen to Everyday Eddie do the game in Spanglish!

[drjim]

Time to move on from Gardy doesn't necessarily mean "Gardy is the problem".  It's just time to move on.  

 

This is my position stated very succinctly.

[drjim]

If no one can pin point the problem, then the organization needs to hedge their bets and wash the whole slate clean, or as much as possible.  Otherwise we just put oursevles in a cycle of continual second guessing, wondering if it's perhaps the other factor in the equation that is causing the failure. 

 

Sorry, innocent parties my be negatively affected, but we need to be looking at the bigger picture.  If you come home to find the window broken and both of your kids say the other did it, they both get grounded until someone comes clean.  In this situation, EVERYONE seems willing to take the blame, that doesn't mean there should be no consequences!  This seems like it should be a very, very easy decision.  Sorry it's harsh, but too much damage has been done and the kids do not look to have the ability to fix the window themselves.

 

I have more confidence in the front office than the coaching staff, but if they wanted to clean house completely I wouldn't be opposed.

 

I also think replacing a manager is much safer than cleaning out a front office. Ryan has a track record and despite the losing I would still argue he has brought a stability to the franchise that was in massive trouble after the 2011 season. This would certainly be an attractive job - a strong farm system, a payroll with few bad contracts and some flexibility, and some emerging young talent.

[Rosterman]

Gardy ran the bullpen. He did this year, too. And it shows as guys who were good in  situations just wore out, or the Twins were always in a position of having relievers start in inning 5 or 6 or whatever.

 

The manager does have to motivate. He controls when a player plays, and where they bat in the lineup.  He supervises the coaches and the way players are treated, the ability of the players are enhaanced and used on the field.

 

We had some issues with Kelly and it seems in the forefront now where The Twins Way is not necesarily right for ALL players or the game in general. Players need to work The Twins Way into the way they are accustomed and CAN do things. We should be adapting the player skills to the game, not making the players adapt a structure of play that possibly frustrates them as they play. If a player put up the least little bit resistance, they are called on it.

 

Yet players are incapable of change? No, they are not. You just have to work your change to the ability of the players.

 

And the you get bonehead mistakes like Parmelee going to second, and the nite before where he put his head down to go for the triple he never gets.

 

If you don't play the Twins Way, you can suffer by being average most of your Twins life and hoping you last longer enough to play elsewhere. Of you play the Twins Way and succeed, but at what cost to your personal self, and then you still aren't sad to move on.

 

I am not sure what is going on. Really, not sure. I'm afraid for the new crop of youngsters that may be stifled in their play and careers by the Twins organization. Is it better to throw caution-to-the-wind and see what these guys have, or nickel-and-dime them to coaching death and the fan base suffers, and suffers, and suffers, especially when management won't gamble and take the plunge on free agency, or when they do, they now question their own risk and ability and tread even more carefully (cheaply) so as not to face a Big Hurt.

[nicksaviking]

While we are in "fire everyone" mode, can we somehow get Bert out of the booth? I'd rather listen to Everyday Eddie do the game in Spanglish!

 

Despite my desire for change, I really am a sentimentalist.  I do like the stability and familiarity of Gardy and Ryan, and I would be sad to see them go, even while I think the club needs the shakeup.  So I guess my internal compromise is that I like, even prefer to have the familiar faces in and around the club when they have no impact on wins and losses.  I'm just fine with Bert and Gladden as broadcasters, even if they aren't particularly good at their job.  I've known these men most of my life, even if through the airwaves.  I'd be equally sad to have them out of my life, particularly since their departure couldn't possibly affect the actual game play.

[Ben B]

While we are in "fire everyone" mode, can we somehow get Bert out of the booth? I'd rather listen to Everyday Eddie do the game in Spanglish!

 

Just get a Twins media guide and read along with the game, and every so often complain about pitch counts. Then you can mute the broadcast and get the same Bert experience. 

[Pius Jefferson]

So who was the mystery man in the clubhouse who said losing wasn't the worse thing in the world? 

 

First thought would be one of the coaches. The second thought is  the story was exaggerated at some point. The final thought is what's the big deal?Unless proven that said person truly is okay with losing than having greater life priorities than winning does not seem like a bad thing.

[ALessKosherScott]

I think you can put some blame on Gardy, but Mackey hit it the nail on the head when he said that baseball is a series of individual matchups that masquerades as a team sport. You can't run a zone-read spread option to make up for the fact that you have bad pitching and defense. More than in any other sport, talent wins games.

 

And there are a lot of factors that go into where the Twins are at right now. Who in the front office really thought Kevin Correria was the answer to our pitching problems? Why does the front office continue to believe they can convert college closers into starting pitching in the draft? Who didn't do the math to see every team in baseball is headed toward more strikeout pitchers?

 

Gardenhire has done enough to earn a pink slip. But there's a lot of incompetence that caused where the Twins are now.

 

 

[ashbury]

If you come home to find the window broken and both of your kids say the other did it, they both get grounded until someone comes clean. 

http://www2.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Rick+Anderson+Minnesota+Twins+Photo+Day+-Xgv8kMtEkNl.jpg

"All right, all right, I'm the one that ruined the pitching staff.  Don't make Brunansky sit in the corner for it too."

[chopper0080]

It is funny how people can maintain that there isn't a losing culture, or that the coaching staff/front office are not to be held accountable for this mess.

 

Why should Gardy and his staff get fired?  Because they couldn't figure out how to make Hardy, Liriano, and CARLOS FREAKING GOMEZ work for this team.  I'm pretty sure that as a leader, your job is to motivate and foster the development of the individuals on your team.  When you start to fail to do so is the time the team moves on.  That ship has sailed.

 

Why should Ryan get fired?  How about holding onto a coach who is driving off talent, and not developing it.  How about signing broke down players like Mike Pelfrey.  How about not dealing players at the peak of their value, and instead waiting for their value to decrease so you get nothing for them.  How about using the cost of free agency as a reason to not bring in outside talent.

 

I'm sorry, but this is professional sports in the era of free agency, and revenue sharing.  Local media contracts.  The experience of the park.  In a time where youth interest is at an all time low for baseball, the plan is for patience?  News flash, the five year development plan days are over.  Done.  It is a washed up excuse that is only bought by fans who are living in the past.  St. Louis.  San Francisco.  Baltimore.  Tampa.  KC.  Cleveland.  These are competitive teams.  The excuses for a lack of money, and a long term plan are over.  The Twins are being beat at their own game.  Payroll is no longer an excuse. 

 

It isn't the payroll.

 

It isn't the market.

 

It isn't the farm system.

 

The Twins are losing 90 games for the 4th season in a row because almost every other team in baseball is doing it better.  Better free agents.  Better talent development.  Better coaching.  Better roster development and mix.  Better strategy.

 

The time for excuses is over.  You either change, or you stay in this spiral.  End of story.

[Brandon]

Bill Smith did do a lot to ruin this team, but the current state still falls on Ron Gardenhire. I do not understand how he gets *any* support. He and Anderson have run this team into the ground. Gardy didn't like Hardy. Anderson (and maybe Gardy) didn't like Liriano. Gardy didn't like Gomez. Etc. etc. How is there no accountability for this? There are players who are going to say great things about the manager. That benefits them in the short-term.

 

The thing that Gardenhire did well during the playoff years was manage the bullpen. He was fantastic at utilizing Hawkins, Rincon, etc. He also had Johan Santana and others who led the Twins to successful years in weak AL Central times. The Twins were, ultimately, the Toronto Blue Jays, but in the AL Central.

 

How a fresh start with a new manager and pitching coach isn't necessary is completely beyond my ability to understand the world. This was true last year. Now it is blatantly true.

 

 

 

The down turn started before Blll Smith.  The last few drafts before Ryan stepped down were terrible starting the decline of our Minor leagues.  They didn't d much better when Bill Smith took over but they did sign some Foreign Players to minor league contracts who are either up are top prospects to help make up for the bad drafts.   But Bill also had the distinction of having to trade Johan Santana with a no trade clause while loosing Hunter in FA.  Then making the trade for Young to replace Hunter forever haunts this team.  So with Bill we started loosing the players on the major league roster.  By the time Ryan came back we had a bad team with no help in the minors. 

 

We now have  top minor league system and some help is already up as we also have a top 5 or 6 offense and a solid pen.  We have a few pitching prospects who are ready and some surplus players for trade so we are in the best spot we have been in for years.  Think about it.  If we trade for a solid starter, Nolasco comes back as a .500 pitcher throwing 190 innings and one of May, Meyer, or Millone pan out we should be above .500 next year.  Our offense is set to get a boost in the second half next year and so is the OF defense.  At least now all that is left is some tweaking and patience. 

[bird]

We heard for years that Gardenhire "got the most out of the least" or whatever... the implication being that mediocre players played better under his management.  What I think is becoming clear is that it was less about Gardenhire coaching them up and much more about those players' talent levels being drastically underrated.  The team seemed to play up the image of the cute little upstart Twins, when in reality they were a solid professional team who mostly deserved to be there.

 

I don't think Gardenhire has forgotten how to manage... I just think his ability to manage was always overrated because he used to have good players.

I agree with this in large part, but I think the larger truth is that Gardy has always been somewhat miss- rated by the fans because we lack both the full portfolio of meaningful information and we lack complete set of relevant criteria.

 

Almost all of our judgments are derived from his pressers, his in-game behavior, and his W-L record. He's not a worse manager. He's simply worn out his welcome.

[bird]

Do you think anyone in the organization expects to win? Players, front office...manager? Fans? Media?

 

Losing culture.

Yes. All of the above, with the exception of half the fans and a quarter of the media. The timetable on it is another question.

[bird]

I don't completely agree. I am a coach/sales manager of a sales department at work. I will agree that finding the natural "go-getters" are great, because they do have their own inner drive. It doesn't mean they don't need their "buttons" pushed as well.

 

Those that need the "external" motivation, in my experience, just haven't found their "inner" motivation yet. That is my job. To help them find the drive to push forward. Maybe Gardy has found that with Hicks after the latest (my back hurts, but not so bad to be getting treatment) episode. He has produced lately.

 

I think what you are saying is self-motivated people tend to do better and over the LONG term that does tend to be the case. Those that aren't self-motivated often just haven't found it yet. Its the coach's job to help them.

 

Keep in mind, not everyone has the same motivations. Some play for the love of the game and others want the big payday (often chill later; see Albert Haynesworth). Point is this is why "make-up" is such an important trait. It's the one trait that is common in the all-time greats vs those that flame out.

Is there a difference between finding inner motivation and having the makeup for greatness? I think there is.

 

Mackey's sources point to two massive deficiencies having led to this abysmal stretch. One is the obvious lack of talent. The other is "leadership" in the clubhouse among the players.

 

I really think our inarticulate friend Gardy was trying to allude to signs he's beginning to see of maybe a couple of new faces that have the makeup "common in the all-time greats".  You don't coach that stuff.

[bird]

This is my position stated very succinctly.

bingo

[bird]

Doesn't the Pinto thing have Gardy's fingerprints all over it (there is a "history" with Latin catchers)?  All the way up the organization, Pinto was billed as a hard worker, always eager to improve, and now he's apparently virtually unplayable, and just to make sure he's set up to fail, he was made Deduno's personal caddy.  How much of this is really on Steinbach?

Huh?!?!?

 

Quite honestly, jokin, you appear to be characterizing Gardenhire as a racist here, and that's not advisable territory.

 

And please help us out: exactly WHO wanted to make sure that Pinto's set up to fail? I hope you can elaborate, but I'd have no problem if instead you decided to retract your comments. 

[TwinsMusings]

To this fan the Twins' front office and field staff appear to be not keeping up with the times. We may see a few signs of recognition that they know it, but few signs that they are doing much about it. In contrast, here is an interesting article about the changes made by the Angels and their long-time manager.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/year-635556-dipoto-angels.html

[mnfireman]

Given the current state of this team, blame could be placed everywhere.

 

They need OF's to play the OF, not infielders. How many innings were turned ugly because of a misplay in the OF? That goes on Ryan for not getting 3 guys to run out to LF, CF, & RF everyday.

 

Those big innings led to short starts, which led to bullpen overuse, which led to late inning losses later in the year. Still on Ryan, even though it looked like it could have been on Gardy.

 

Say all you want about pitch framing being a skill, it isn't. The skill is the pitcher hitting the target. If he hits the target, he eventually gets the close ones. If he misses the target by a foot, he doesn't get the close ones later. This leads to having to groove a pitch to a major league hitter and/or higher pitch counts. This also leads to bullpen overuse. This is on the coaching staff.

 

Everybody loves the longball, but some situations just require a groundball to advance the runner. Or a flyball to advance/score a runner. This team had too many runners left on base because of SO's. Let the kids hit, but teach them when its okay to play small ball. Also they get thrown out a lot on the bases and/or don't take the extra base when possible. Again, on the coaching staff.

 

Defense. Or lack thereof. I am not going to look the numbers up, but by errors, UZR, Range factor, etc... I am going to guess this team looks ok. Its not. Flyballs dropping between defenders, throwing to the wrong base, missing the cut off man, misplaying balls in the RF & LF corners, infield hits that could have been outs. The list goes on. This team is fundamentally not sound. Again, coaching staff.

 

There's enough blame to go around, and this includes the coaching staff.

[snepp]

Defense. Or lack thereof. I am not going to look the numbers up, but by errors, UZR, Range factor, etc... I am going to guess this team looks ok.

 

You guessed wrong, defensive measures hate this team, primarily the outfield.

[Mike Sixel]

From the article about the Angels and Scoscia....

 

"After General Manager Jerry Dipoto and his staff provided the necessary facts and figures over the offseason, about everything from defense to batting order to bullpen management, Scioscia shifted many of his long-held beliefs about how baseball should be played, Dipoto said Wednesday."

 

that makes about 4 articles this year about managers and coaches that have had success, but were recently struggling, being told by the GM to change, or lose their job. And, they did.....NFL, NBA, MLB, not in Twins land though.

[old nurse]

From the article about the Angels and Scoscia....

 

"After General Manager Jerry Dipoto and his staff provided the necessary facts and figures over the offseason, about everything from defense to batting order to bullpen management, Scioscia shifted many of his long-held beliefs about how baseball should be played, Dipoto said Wednesday."

 

that makes about 4 articles this year about managers and coaches that have had success, but were recently struggling, being told by the GM to change, or lose their job. And, they did.....NFL, NBA, MLB, not in Twins land though.

Molitor was brought in partly for defensive help, they shift more. That is what the Angels do more of, shifting. In terms of batting order and production,  they seem to be scoring  despite the hitting woes of many players. You will not find 1000 PA on the Angels team by hitters who are not hitting like you can for the Twins.

[Cris E]

You can change the clubhouse culture by mixing in a couple red-*ss guys to stir things up a little.  I agree with Mackey that it was the reason they tried bringing some of those geezers in last spring (but not Kubel - he's a quiet one.) They were more effective when Hunter and Morneau were around, not just because they were playing well but because they ran over catchers and got on teammates and ran a clubhouse. It's part of why Hunter got that huge-tastic deal in 2008: he brings more than 20 HR power and good CF defense.  They need to go get one of these types again to fill a corner OF spot. They have a roster spot and money, so there's not much excuse to fall back on stiffs like Bartlett to fill the role.

[drjim]

From the article about the Angels and Scoscia....

 

"After General Manager Jerry Dipoto and his staff provided the necessary facts and figures over the offseason, about everything from defense to batting order to bullpen management, Scioscia shifted many of his long-held beliefs about how baseball should be played, Dipoto said Wednesday."

 

that makes about 4 articles this year about managers and coaches that have had success, but were recently struggling, being told by the GM to change, or lose their job. And, they did.....NFL, NBA, MLB, not in Twins land though.

 

Saying Gardy hasn't changed isn't really backed by examples of defensive shifting and lineup construction, which is 2 of the 3 examples cited. And bullpen management struck me as pretty much exactly the same as what the Angels did.

 

So, Gardy pretty much did the same as Scoscia, just didn't have the article to publicly state it.

[Mike Sixel]

We'll just disagree on how much Gardy has changed or not......

[Kwak]

The attitude of the enire organization must change.  The arrogance of using "The Twins Way" is hollow based on results.  This arrogance has led to a completely entrenched organization that is in damage control mode to limit how many insiders "are fed to the wolves", rather than purging itself and rebuilding with new people at all levels so it can succeed in a new environment.  The methods "that worked before" (and not nearly as successfully as many posters claim) no longer succeed.  Some of those are gone forever.  As easy example is the Metrodome--the Twins truly had a home-field advantage there that isn't present at Target Field.  The Twins must change from within before it can be a consistent winner on the field. 

[The Wise One]

Do you think anyone in the organization expects to win? Players, front office...manager? Fans? Media?

 

Losing culture.

Yes I think they go out thinking they have a chance to win. Did they roll over and die in Detroit against any of the former Cy Young winners? Good job on propagating the big lie on losing culture.  Keep repeating it over and over again and people will believe you. In the meantime, show me when the club has quit playing hard.