I agree with all 5 of your future moves. Gray won't return to this team and someone would probably give a good return. Buxton needs to play the OF and we need to see if Royce can actually be the player we hope. 

Recent trades were terrible.   Trade Aareaz was a biggest mistake ever.  FO should be overhauled.   

I agree with most of the future moves. Gallo, I get it, but Wallner or Larnach haven't shown yet that they are much different than a lower OBP version of Gallo. Moving Kepler would make room for one or both of them and not cost the team a power threat. 

MAT trade. I agree with you was a good trade.

Jorge Lopez trade. Was an overpay at the time. That's what happens when you trade for an all-star closer with 1/2 a season of success. Looks even worse now.  Cano was not very good in his short time as a Twin. Some credit should be given to Baltimore's coaches here. a D seems fair.

Paddack trade. This one I continue to not see or understand all the angst over...We traded a good set up guy and Rooker. For a starter, another BP arm and a prospect. Let's be realistic here. Rogers is a set up guy in a normal BP. Not a closer. Once he was exposed enough by the Padres his success collapsed and was eventually traded again for an actual closer. Yes, yes, Paddack got hurt, Pagan is what he is, maybe a #7-8 guy in a BP. By the end of the 2022 season Rogers #'s were just as bad as Pagans. So, we traded Roger's worst season as a pro and Rooker who was DFA'd shortly after. For two seasons of Pagan and starter who may be back from TJ this season and will be with the team thru 2025..IMO this is a C now and if Paddack gives the team 100+ innings the next two full seasons it's an ez A.

Mahle trade...The elephant in the room...This one is definitely the worst of the trades. F is a fair grade. Steer and CES instead of say Solano and Castro would be preferable. My only bone to pick about this trade is the whole damaged goods argument. If you won't trade or sign players with an injury history, you may as well disconnect your phone because you don't need it. Ask the Rangers if Eovaldi/DeGrom has been worth the injury risk? Or the Yankees about Montas? No risk, no reward..

Pablo Lopez trade. With Arraez, the Twins could have the 3rd worse K rate instead of the worst? Probably still be in the top ten worst BA's and strand even more guys on base. Of course, the offense was going to suffer, but Arraez alone would not fix this hot mess of an offense. With Lopez we have a top 5 starting pitching staff. No dumpster dive starters.. Kind of like the Paddack trade. Anytime you can get the most valuable resource in baseball, starting pitching, you should probably do it. C is fair on this trade. If either of the prospects pan out or get traded for a player that improves the team the grade should go up.

Overall, right now a C is where I would put it.

Paddack and the prosects could raise the grade in the future. Steer, CES, Cano and the other prospects could lower the grade in the future.

This squad is a hot mess right now. Probably a bad time to comment here. 30th in contact rate. 30th in most every offensive category. We must start deep in the minors and up in the front office and ask, who is coaching and teaching our hitting philosophy? What is our hitting philosophy? Is it 2019? How long w/Buxton as DH only? Can we play him in RF? Strictly DH is hard for some. Obviously Byron needs to head out onto the field in order to hit?

Is Rowson still in Miami? Did he steal Arraez? So far he did. I was always in agreement with Rod, and hindsight, our ugly friend says we should have given Arraez 2B last year and rolled with it. Polanco has been done for a year 1/2 apparently. 

I've always asked myself, why did they trade Arraez at the peak of the peak in value? We've NEVER done this before? Run down the list. When they were at the peak, no trade. Sano, Kepler, Polanco, Buxton and on and on. When did we ever trade someone at the peak of his value? I can't think of anyone, Viola maybe?

Trading for quality starting pitching is always the way to go, but do to the nature of the game and injuries, also a crapshoot.

The Mahle trade is a disaster. Over paying for an unproven Jorge Lopez, also a disaster.

I've  said it a 100 times, Arreaz is a ONE tool player. Granted if he were here maybe his teammates could have watched and learned and be able to hit 250.

But no speed, bad knees, no power and below average fielding made trading him for a potential Ace well worth it.

The Twins are actually in the top three for starters going deep into games, so the early hook critique is no longer a valid one. The problem seems to lie with coaching - hitting, pitching,  athletic trainers. They miss Wes Johnson. 

Examples - Miranda - what happened here?? Gallo we k ew would hit about 200, but power and good defense make his prescence tolerable.

But Buxton, Kepler, Polanco, Vasquez and yes even Correa flailing at the plate and getting Injured goes to coaching.

Alcala, Moran, McGill, Lopez ,even Cano - none have developed their potential and all have regressed as a Twin. Also goes to failed coaching. 

This team has no synergy. The sum of its parts does not exceed its whole, it doesn't even get close.

The no name Phillies got to the series last year! Based on talent, they shouldn't have even made the playoffs. Team chemistry did it.

Same with the 1987 Twins (85 -77).

Maybe so.e magic happens and thus current batch gets in at 85-77 and catches fire. They have the talent, just not the synergy.

You couldn't ask for a better group of utility backups in Farmer, Solano, Taylor & Castro - but they are not supposed to be carrying a team. 

Yet they are arguably our 4 best players so far this year. 

And yes Buxton needs to play in the field. Will pick up the whole team. DH only is not working. He can't lead the team from the bench. Start there and see what develops.

35 minutes ago, KBJ1 said:

Trading for quality starting pitching is always the way to go, but do to the nature of the game and injuries, also a crapshoot.

The Mahle trade is a disaster. Over paying for an unproven Jorge Lopez, also a disaster.

I've  said it a 100 times, Arreaz is a ONE tool player. Granted if he were here maybe his teammates could have watched and learned and be able to hit 250.

But no speed, bad knees, no power and below average fielding made trading him for a potential Ace well worth it.

The Twins are actually in the top three for starters going deep into games, so the early hook critique is no longer a valid one. The problem seems to lie with coaching - hitting, pitching,  athletic trainers. They miss Wes Johnson. 

Examples - Miranda - what happened here?? Gallo we k ew would hit about 200, but power and good defense make his prescence tolerable.

But Buxton, Kepler, Polanco, Vasquez and yes even Correa flailing at the plate and getting Injured goes to coaching.

Alcala, Moran, McGill, Lopez ,even Cano - none have developed their potential and all have regressed as a Twin. Also goes to failed coaching. 

This team has no synergy. The sum of its parts does not exceed its whole, it doesn't even get close.

The no name Phillies got to the series last year! Based on talent, they shouldn't have even made the playoffs. Team chemistry did it.

Same with the 1987 Twins (85 -77).

Maybe so.e magic happens and thus current batch gets in at 85-77 and catches fire. They have the talent, just not the synergy.

You couldn't ask for a better group of utility backups in Farmer, Solano, Taylor & Castro - but they are not supposed to be carrying a team. 

Yet they are arguably our 4 best players so far this year. 

And yes Buxton needs to play in the field. Will pick up the whole team. DH only is not working. He can't lead the team from the bench. Start there and see what develops.

 

 

The argument Arraez is a below average defender is overused. People who say that didn't watch Instagram videos of him working on that all winter. To my knowledge he's not committed a single error this season and has looked good turning the double plays. Lopez wasn't an ace and never will be, he's a #3 starter statistically and had always been that way. 

LA had 5 hits last night and the Twins had a total of 7 hits. LA will probably be a very good hitter for several more years and we have a .500 pitcher at best.

DAMN GOOD ARTICLE, DOC!!! 

I agree with you 100%

Even the Head coach part. I'm done with him. 

The Arraez trade is what it is and I am alright with it. As bad as this lineup is it wouldn’t matter having a .400 lead off hitter just being stranded.99% of the time.  The Mahle and Lopez trades were inexcusable…,we were already in free fall mode at the time. The team was done at that point… losing those prospects for the production in return should be a pink slip in return. Then the FO doubles down and extends possibly the worst manager in the league. Yes… Rocco’s teams are poorly managed, zero fight, poor fundamentally and uninspiring. All in all we should be sellers at the trade deadline with a special assistant assigned to oversee any potential trades. We suck… good day!!

The Reds trade for Mahle is bar far the worst because of the talent we gave up and what we've ultimately gotten and will get (Mahle won't be back).  Paddock still has some potential upside.  Arraez won't hit .400 this year or any other, but he WILL be a consistent hitter with little power for the rest of his career.  Maybe we should have offered Polanco instead and gone with Julien/Farmer at 2B.  Hindsight is always 20/10 looking back.  Jorge Lopez is disappointing because he has the talent and the stuff but he's lost all his confidence.  The Twins are right to have put him on I.L. to give him some time.  They should probably do the same with Buxton.  

This FO has "missed" more than they've hit on trades.  I give them credit for shipping Donaldson off to the Yankees.  That's a big win in any calculation.  Getting Sonny Gray for Chase Petty was good.  But I'd like to see them pull off something truly beneficial to the team because it's clear the Twins are a mess right now and I place most of the blame on Buxton and Correa.  Those two MUST be good to great for the Twins to be good to great and neither has been anywhere near good this season.  

agree with everything you said except your opinion of Arraez's value to this team. If ever a team needed someone like him (a batting champion no less) in a lineup filled with players who strike out regularly and kill rallies on a nightly basis its the Twins. We can forgive Gallo for his shortcomings and yet he has added very little to the success of this team, so far. As of this day, Twins have not gotten value for the Arraez trade, unfortunately...and surprisingly. In your quiet hours I think you would admit that there are probably around 30 MLB teams that would welcome such a 'one tool' player as Arraez, without blinking.

Twins were hoping to catch some lightning in a bottle by trading for a pitcher that would do better than an ERA of 4.30 and have just 3 wins so far. It has only been 3 months but if we had to grade his contribution so far, it would not be a good one.  But the season is a marathon, not a sprint so we'll see.

If I were in Vegas, I'd say as soon as they put Buxton back in CF, he will go down within 1 to 2 weeks. He is already hurt so what is anyone really expecting. Buck only knows one speed so one diving catch, one sprint against a wall, one anything really...and that will be that.

The number of people advocating for Byron playing CF is baffling to me. Are you all watching the games or just looking at box scores?

What about watching Buxton run the bases leads you to believe he'd be able to play CF this year?

My knees hurt just watching him get up after a slide into 2nd, and it's obvious they're hurting him too.

Byron has like 5-6 years left on his contract. Using him as DH isn't just to save his knees this year guys... The Twins want as much production from him over the course of the contract as possible. Watching him ruin his knees and risk greater injury isn't the path to get the.

Does he play 50 games in CF before he literally can't anymore? 60 games? 20…?

They're playing it safe because keeping him off his feet helps keep him in the lineup. Whether or not he's a value add in the lineup at the moment isn't the main thing informing the decision to keep him at DH.

7 minutes ago, AlGoreRythm said:

The number of people advocating for Byron playing CF is baffling to me. Are you all watching the games or just looking at box scores?

What about watching Buxton run the bases leads you to believe he'd be able to play CF this year?

My knees hurt just watching him get up after a slide into 2nd, and it's obvious they're hurting him too.

Byron has like 5-6 years left on his contract. Using him as DH isn't just to save his knees this year guys... The Twins want as much production from him over the course of the contract as possible. Watching him ruin his knees and risk greater injury isn't the path to get the.

Does he play 50 games in CF before he literally can't anymore? 60 games? 20…?

They're playing it safe because keeping him off his feet helps keep him in the lineup. Whether or not he's a value add in the lineup at the moment isn't the main thing informing the decision to keep him at DH.

I don’t understand the “play him in CF or we aren’t getting our value from him….” comments!

Played in 46% of games in 7 of 8 years prior to this year. Gotta take a different approach in ‘23.

If we just “play him in CF” that % will come into play shortly. He’s not physically right just slotting in at DH, let alone playing CF.

If we try to play him in CF he will break down - once this happens we get zero value. Why all the complaining?

Now, should he be our only DH? That’s debatable. Personally, I think he needs an IL stint and a total reset “while recovering” for 30 days he needs to get his swing/ batting approach back in time/rhythm.

Right now - he doesn’t really look any different than Kepler at the plate - & that’s not good!

45 minutes ago, AlGoreRythm said:

The number of people advocating for Byron playing CF is baffling to me. Are you all watching the games or just looking at box scores?

What about watching Buxton run the bases leads you to believe he'd be able to play CF this year?

My knees hurt just watching him get up after a slide into 2nd, and it's obvious they're hurting him too.

Byron has like 5-6 years left on his contract. Using him as DH isn't just to save his knees this year guys... The Twins want as much production from him over the course of the contract as possible. Watching him ruin his knees and risk greater injury isn't the path to get the.

Does he play 50 games in CF before he literally can't anymore? 60 games? 20…?

They're playing it safe because keeping him off his feet helps keep him in the lineup. Whether or not he's a value add in the lineup at the moment isn't the main thing informing the decision to keep him at DH.

His struggles at the plate are likely linked to his not playing the field. He isn't contributing offensively so if he gets hurt playing center there isn't really any loss. That's the point we are trying to make.

Great 1st post! Welcome to the Fire them all DFA the rest website.

6 hours ago, KBJ1 said:

Trading for quality starting pitching is always the way to go, but do to the nature of the game and injuries, also a crapshoot.

The Mahle trade is a disaster. Over paying for an unproven Jorge Lopez, also a disaster.

I've  said it a 100 times, Arreaz is a ONE tool player. Granted if he were here maybe his teammates could have watched and learned and be able to hit 250.

But no speed, bad knees, no power and below average fielding made trading him for a potential Ace well worth it.

The Twins are actually in the top three for starters going deep into games, so the early hook critique is no longer a valid one. The problem seems to lie with coaching - hitting, pitching,  athletic trainers. They miss Wes Johnson. 

Examples - Miranda - what happened here?? Gallo we k ew would hit about 200, but power and good defense make his prescence tolerable.

But Buxton, Kepler, Polanco, Vasquez and yes even Correa flailing at the plate and getting Injured goes to coaching.

Alcala, Moran, McGill, Lopez ,even Cano - none have developed their potential and all have regressed as a Twin. Also goes to failed coaching. 

This team has no synergy. The sum of its parts does not exceed its whole, it doesn't even get close.

The no name Phillies got to the series last year! Based on talent, they shouldn't have even made the playoffs. Team chemistry did it.

Same with the 1987 Twins (85 -77).

Maybe so.e magic happens and thus current batch gets in at 85-77 and catches fire. They have the talent, just not the synergy.

You couldn't ask for a better group of utility backups in Farmer, Solano, Taylor & Castro - but they are not supposed to be carrying a team. 

Yet they are arguably our 4 best players so far this year. 

And yes Buxton needs to play in the field. Will pick up the whole team. DH only is not working. He can't lead the team from the bench. Start there and see what develops.

 

 

Great 1st post! Welcome to the FIRE all of them and DFA the rest website..

4 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

His struggles at the plate are likely linked to his not playing the field. He isn't contributing offensively so if he gets hurt playing center there isn't really any loss. That's the point we are trying to make.

Explain to me why you believe his struggles at the plate are in any way linked to playing in the field or not.

What's this based on other than wishful thinking?

I'll posit the idea that his knees are the reason he isn't producing at the plate, and I've got half a season's worth of game video as evidence.

His knees were completely messed up last season, and go figure, they haven't magically healed to the point where he's the 2017 version of himself. Knees don't generally get better with time, especially for professional athletes, and especially for those 30 and older.

From what you've seen of Buxton this year, how many games do you imagine he could play in CF before the wheels fell off? It's a real question those advocating for him in CF should ask themselves. How many games would you expect to see him for in CF?

Do you believe getting injured or wearing out his knees in CF make the next 5 years of the contract more or less valuable? The answer is obviously less.

That's the point I'm making.

3 minutes ago, AlGoreRythm said:

Explain to me why you believe his struggles at the plate are in any way linked to playing in the field or not.

What's this based on other than wishful thinking?

Do you believe getting injured or wearing out his knees in CF make the next 5 years of the contract more or less valuable? The answer is obviously less.

That's the point I'm making.

It's based on information from guys who DH'ed primarily. When they're not hitting well, they don't have the opportunity to contribute defensively which adds more pressure to them when they're batting. I've heard this mentioned in a handful of interviews over the years. They start pressing more trying to come up with a big hit and in doing so struggle more. That's exactly where Buxton is. If Buxton were allowed to play center, I think he would press alot less than what he is doing now. Sure he may get injured, that's always a risk but right now by playing and struggling so bad he 1) isn't helping the team 2) is wasting a spot that could go to another player that could help the team. The question the Twins have to ask is "Does the risk outweigh the reward?" This is even more an issue with Taylor getting plunked on Sunday. I like Willi Castro but if he is your every day center fielder you have serious issues. 

That's the point I am making. Half of Buxton's value is his Platinum Glove defense which is being wasted. 

15 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

It's based on information from guys who DH'ed primarily. When they're not hitting well, they don't have the opportunity to contribute defensively which adds more pressure to them when they're batting. I've heard this mentioned in a handful of interviews over the years. They start pressing more trying to come up with a big hit and in doing so struggle more. That's exactly where Buxton is. If Buxton were allowed to play center, I think he would press alot less than what he is doing now. Sure he may get injured, that's always a risk but right now by playing and struggling so bad he 1) isn't helping the team 2) is wasting a spot that could go to another player that could help the team. The question the Twins have to ask is "Does the risk outweigh the reward?" This is even more an issue with Taylor getting plunked on Sunday. I like Willi Castro but if he is your every day center fielder you have serious issues. 

That's the point I am making. Half of Buxton's value is his Platinum Glove defense which is being wasted. 

He's literally already hurt, and you think the answer is to have him run around in CF? You think he's in a physical state to play Platinum Glove defense? Not sure what broadcast you're watching man...

You won't get any argument from me that he's been a non-factor at the plate most of the season, but putting him in CF will end his season real quick, and then we'll be watching Willi Castro anyway. And to your point, the team obviously has a lot of issues and we've had a lot of Willi Castro so far.

If Byron is pressing because he isn't in the field, which I'm happy to acknowledge as a real possibility, then it falls to the coaching staff to help him get his head and approach right.

Sure, putting him in CF could potentially help his mental approach, but at what cost? And I don't mean for just this season. Again, there is half a decade left on his contract.H ow many games in CF this season are worth 5 more years of his bat?

I mean do we really think the Twins wouldn't prefer him playing CF and do we think they aren't asking themselves the risk vs reward question?

Believe me, I'm very disappointed at his production and that he's unlikely to ever be well enough to pay a majority of games in CF again, but we have to be realistic and logical about the reasons things are playing out the way they are.

I can assure you the Twins want Byron able to play CF more than we do.

3 minutes ago, AlGoreRythm said:

He's literally already hurt, and you think the answer is to have him run around in CF? You think he's in a physical state to play Platinum Glove defense? Not sure what broadcast you're watching man...

You won't get any argument from me that he's been a non-factor at the plate most of the season, but putting him in CF will end his season real quick, and then we'll be watching Willi Castro anyway.

If Byron is pressing because he isn't in the field, which I'm happy to acknowledge as a real possibility, then it falls to the coaching staff to help him get his head and approach right.

Sure, putting him in CF could potentially help his mental approach, but at what cost? And I don't mean for just this season. Again, there is half a decade left on his contract.H ow many games in CF this season are worth 5 more years of his bat?

I mean do we really think the Twins wouldn't prefer him playing CF and do we think they aren't asking themselves the risk vs reward question?

If Buxton is injured to the point where he can't contribute defensively, he needs to go on the IL and get whatever is wrong fixed. That would be the solution that would help him and the team long term. Obviously his offense isn't working so at this point he needs to be shut down and if he needs a surgery of some sort it needs to happen sooner than later.

7 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

If Buxton is injured to the point where he can't contribute defensively, he needs to go on the IL and get whatever is wrong fixed. That would be the solution that would help him and the team long term. Obviously his offense isn't working so at this point he needs to be shut down and if he needs a surgery of some sort it needs to happen sooner than later.

As a fan base, we should be well aware that an IL stint isn't necessarily a fix all and that some issues are not able to be "fixed".

Some stuff is chronic and not fixable.

Byron has knee surgery last off-season to try to clean up some stuff in his knee or knees (can't remember if it was one or both) and that obviously didn't make a huge difference.

If it could be "fixed" I'm sure that would've happened toward the end of last season.

I think your expectations are out of line with the reality of the situation. This isn't a video game where an IL stint fixes all ailments and then player is back to 100% of what they were.

The Twins obviously realize this and have opted for what they view as the next best option, which is to try to rest him and manage his load to keep his bat in the lineup as much as possible.

1 minute ago, AlGoreRythm said:

As a fan base, we should be well aware that an IL stint isn't necessarily a fix all and that some issues are not able to be "fixed".

Some stuff is chronic and not fixable.

Byron has knee surgery last off-season to try to clean up some stuff in his knee or knees (can't remember if it was one or both) and that obviously didn't make a huge difference.

If it could be "fixed" I'm sure that would've happened toward the end of last season.

I think your expectations are out of line with the reality of the situation. This isn't a video game where an IL stint fixes all ailments and then player is back to 100% of what they were.

Indeed it isn't a video game, and the Twins are gonna have to figure out what they need to do to get Buxton to contribute and it could be his best contribution is sitting on the bench to let someone else more capable play until he is in a better position physically. 

This is looking like a worse version of the Tony Oliva situation. 

13 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

Indeed it isn't a video game, and the Twins are gonna have to figure out what they need to do to get Buxton to contribute and it could be his best contribution is sitting on the bench to let someone else more capable play until he is in a better position physically. 

This is looking like a worse version of the Tony Oliva situation. 

You were just bemoaning the idea of watching Willi Castro in CF. He's obviously more capable in CF than Buxton right now.

You went from bemoaning the fact that Buxton isn't in CF and batting, to saying they should just completely bench him for someone more capable.

Do-Hyoung Park just dropped a good article on the subject.

https://www.mlb.com/news/byron-buxton-still-not-healthy-enough-to-play-center-field?partnerID=mlbapp-android_article-share

Who knew the offense would be this pathetic?  We ALL should have known.  What did we do to improve the offense other than trade away the leading hitter in the AL?  NOTHING.  We did nothing to improve the offense and we're on pace to score almost exactly the same number of runs as we did last year.  Why are we surprised?

15 hours ago, AlGoreRythm said:

You were just bemoaning the idea of watching Willi Castro in CF. He's obviously more capable in CF than Buxton right now.

You went from bemoaning the fact that Buxton isn't in CF and batting, to saying they should just completely bench him for someone more capable.

Do-Hyoung Park just dropped a good article on the subject.

https://www.mlb.com/news/byron-buxton-still-not-healthy-enough-to-play-center-field?partnerID=mlbapp-android_article-share

I'm not talking about Willi Castro playing CF. I'm talking about the roster spot in general being used for someone in AAA (Larnach or Wallner specifically) if Buxton is unable to play at a level that allows him to contribute. 

Half of Buxton value is defense and other than last night his offense hasn't been supplying value. If there is another player who can provide value offensively and defensively the decision has to be made. 

I read the statements that Buxton physically cannot play defense and understand that but there has to be a time that comes when the FO realizes the injury that is preventing him from playing CF is impacting his hitting and they need to sit him down for the good of the team. Hopefully last night is the start of a hot streak and he will start producing.

9 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

I'm not talking about Willi Castro playing CF. I'm talking about the roster spot in general being used for someone in AAA (Larnach or Wallner specifically) if Buxton is unable to play at a level that allows him to contribute. 

Half of Buxton value is defense and other than last night his offense hasn't been supplying value. If there is another player who can provide value offensively and defensively the decision has to be made. 

I read the statements that Buxton physically cannot play defense and understand that but there has to be a time that comes when the FO realizes the injury that is preventing him from playing CF is impacting his hitting and they need to sit him down for the good of the team. Hopefully last night is the start of a hot streak and he will start producing.

I think you're stuck on the idea that is is a specific acute injury rather than a chronic problem that needs constant management/maintenance.

The Twins are obviously choosing to keep him in the lineup because they believe it's the best choice after considering all the factors we've gone back and forth about.

Buxton has always been a streaky hitter, and riding through the slumps to get to the streaks is the game I believe they're playing.

So far Byron has come back from each slump, whether it's mentally or physically induced, and produced at the plate. I imagine, like Sano, at some point it's no longer worth going through the valley to get to the peak, but I don't think we're there yet.