TwinsDr2021

Sure, but wouldn't you think you could find somebody to take a 200K plus job in the majors to be a pitching coach?

If this is true it is a damning statement that there are people turning down a job to be a major league pitching coach. If you can't find people that don't want to coach this way, it bet it would be even harder to find pitchers that want to pitch that way?

The Twins have no real long term payroll committed to anybody but Buxton. Kepler has two years left at 8.5 and 10, Polanco has two years at 7.5 and 10. Otherwise Nothing. Ryan, Ober, Winder, Varland, SWR, Balazxovi, Enlow, Henriquez, Jax, Duran, Moran, AlcaSands and any other minor league pitcher that helps is basically free. Arraez isn't a free agent until 25, Jeffers, AK, Larnach, Lewis, Miranda are locked up past 25 if they want them. Any other minor league player that comes up is basically free as well. If they wanted to they could sign Judge (45), Correa (35) and Rodon (25), next year would be a pretty high payroll but they could trade Gray, Kepler an it still wouldn't be cray high. (Not saying they should do this but to pretend the Twins can't go out and get who they want is simply not true) The Twins can sign anybody they want to sign,

Super star players aren't hard to trade, overpaid/injured players are.

Maybe trading away stars, having nobody consistent to cheer for? Tampa went up 4 K this year down 5 K after finishing 1st in the division after 20.

I hear what you are saying, but again that just means you need all good or better pitchers. The reason Bundy threw 140 innings wasn't because Duran only threw 67.2, it was because the Twins thought he was better than Pagan, Thielbar, Megill, Duffey, Moan, Cotton, Sands, Smith , Smeltzer and such pitching more innings on top of Ober, Winder, Ryan, Gray and Mahle's injuries same with why Archer pitched 102 innings. I think we can agree Duran should pitch more innings than last year but if that is because he is pitching less games and more innings, that means they need other bullpen members close to as good as him to finish games or come in a save an inning, correct? The twins next year are going into the season with multiple pitchers that could/should be considered traditional starters, I agree Duran, Jax, Ober, Winder, Varland can be multiple innings pitchers (starting a game or coming into a game later), what becomes difficult is how to use them if traditional starters go longer because they are pitching great or short because they weren't on that day or blow out games For example if the Plan is Ryan to start a game and go 6 and Duran is set to pitch the last 3 innings, what do they go if Twins go way up or way down are you going to pitch Duran in a game like that, just because or do you save him and then what happens when he hasn't pitched in days? This is why it becomes difficult to implement something similar. Which means you have to get away traditional starters completely and go with a idea of 3 to innings pitchers pitching every few days. Which gets to my point unless you bring a stud starter from the outside you probably aren't going to develop one.

Sorry, I guess I don't understand what you are saying, removing the traditional roles (starter and relief) it out getter types? Get your better pitchers to pitch more than you worse pitchers to pitch less. Isn't that what every team has been trying to do since the beginning? Isn't that way teams start the guys they start and use the others as relief pitchers? Then the solution is to not have bad or decent pitchers just good ones? correct? In your example you are saying more Duran and less Bundy, but that doesn't make sense because everybody knew that Duran was going to be limited this year based on throwing 16 innings since 2019. You need to be comparing Bundy to the other pitchers that pitched for the Twins this year. To get more innings out of really good current relief pitchers means pitching more innings and less outings and prep for that, which means now you still need other really good pitchers to fill that void (the games previous pitcher is no longer pitching in) Which goes back to the Scherzer example how would you ever develop a pitcher like him if you are prepping an organization to fill the innings that way you are suggesting?

Everything you wrote is spot on, but what Riverbrian is saying isn't how to to better construct a bullpen when you have a starting staff of decent at best starters, unless I am missing something. I am reading it as saying throw out the idea of starters and relief pitchers and filling the 1450 innings with out getters, That would be a self full filling prophecy of never having a Scherzer or McClanahan type pitcher, because you would never give a pitcher a chance to do that because it would be an organizational philosophy of training pitcher to pitch every third game for 3 innings for example (that gets you to 150ish innings) or guys pitching two innings basically every other day (160 innings). Or guys pitching 4 innings every 4th game (160 innings). Then a bunch of guys 1 innings or specialist guys to come in when needed. it was also conceded that compensation system is going to be a very big hurdle. What you have describe is a more realist approach to pitching in mid to smaller markets, compensate for decent starters by having out getters either starting games or coming in for multiple innings, grooming younger pitchers in these scenarios and then moving them them into a starers role if they have proven themselves, like they did with Liriano and Johan.

I think the major difference between the Twins players and Atlanta is that the Twins players are much older and does it make sense to extend people into their 30's? Arraez will be 29 when he is UFA, Ryan will be 32, assume Duran will be 31, Miranda will be 30 I think? I might extend Arraez and Miranda but not chance I am with Ryan and Duran.

In 1987 the A's attendance was 1.678 million. Then it jumped to 2 million plus for 6 years with one at 2.9. Dipped for 6 years to between 1.2 and 1.6. The next 7 years were above 1.9 million. And since 2008 only once has been above 1.81 million (2014). In that time they have been to 6 playoffs. The last two years have been 788 K or less and that was after winning the division title in 2020, and winning 97 game the two years prior. Does Winning really solve attendance issues? How come Tampa since 2008 has only finished as high as 9th in the American league, just once and basically been in the bottom two in attendance every other year, while being in the playoffs 8 times and have 4 Division titles? What has been on consistent thing for these two year (besides winning and low attendance)?

The Twins best pitcher Duran pitched only 4 more innings than Pagan, something is wrong with that stat. But like the rookie pitcher I am going with Ryan not sure Duran greatness makes up for the 79 less innings. IMO

Maybe Kill attendance was too strong of word, greatly reduce might have been better. Name recognition is probably number 1, talk to people from Tampa on why they don't go to watch games (Coming off of two straight division titles) One reason people go to games to see great players do great things and when you eliminate the possibly of that happening on the pitching side this can cause people to not show up. I have a 14 year old son who likes going to games, at least a half dozen times this year he said to me lets go to the Twins game and after we looked up who was starting he would (I always seemed like Archer or Bundy) say forget it. His baseball team had a morning game and bunch of the kids decided they wanted to go to the games so a few of us Dad's agreed, one kid asked if Buxton was playing and we looked up the starting lineup and it was a Day with no Buxton, Correa and I believe Polanco and Bundy was pitching and the kids decided they would rather go to the pool. This is a small sample, but in all the Twin Cities only so many people go to Twins games and if conversations like this are happening to people I know I assume it is a happening in other places. People like buying Jersey's of players, are people going to buy the jersey just another pitcher, I don't think so, I don't see Duran jerseys flying off the shelf and they should be he is amazing, but until he is a closer or starter he is just another relief pitcher and people don't buy middle relief pitchers jerseys. I also love the phrase out getters, my thoughts on that is you have 3 really good pitchers that can consistently get outs for 6 to 7 innings, you have a couple that can consistently get out for 4 to 6, you have a few guys in the pen that can consistently get you 2 - 3 and a few that are good for 1. Chris Archer was a great out getter for 3 to 4 innings this year and should have been paired with another out getter that could go 3 to 4 innings. Bundy was a pretty good out getter for 5 innings he should have been paired with a 2 to 3 inning out getter. Fans will buy this because it makes sense, what fans wouldn't buy is building a whole staff on this philosophy, unless I guess your have an offense full of all stars and future HOFS.

In theory this would be the best way to build a pitching staff correct? The problem IMO comes from this would have to be done at an organizational level and now brings players emotions and salaries into the question. It would basically require building a staff with lower round picks or drafting seniors with no leverage and cast offs. No agent worth anything is going to have a top end prospect sign with a team that won't guarantee that he will be given every chance to be a traditional starter. I also think if a team decided to do this the Union would be up in arms about a team limiting players earning potential. It also becomes difficult to determine the rest time between pitching if you have gone 3 to 4 innings. It doesn't seem possible to give the pitchers their 4 to 5 days off if they have only went 4 innings, it seems like a wasted roster spot. Also unless MLB changes the 5 inning start rule no really good or even just good starting type pitcher is going to want to be part of this. Sure there may be failed starters like Bundy that is willing to something like this for millions of dollars but is that really the type of pitcher that helps winning teams? I will also add I believe this will kill attendance. With that I think this can be done and should be done with the back end of a rotation or grooming younger pitchers into a more traditional role.

Well as of right now I am not counting on AK for anything, Larnach would be starting, Kepler a back up outfielder (or traded for anything if Wallner proves his worth). Arraez at 2nd, Polanco at SS, Miranda at 1B/DH, and Gio the third basemen. If Lewis or Lee comes up to play SS, Polanco moves to 2nd, Gio stays at third, Miranda to back up 1B/3B/DH and Arraez super utility playing 1B/2B/3B/DH/LF there would be plenty of at bats to go around. Again not my first choice but the improvements in the other spots would make up for things.

I don't want Polanco at SS, just like I don't want Gio or Gordon at SS, what I was trying to say is if they upgraded OF and 1B/DH to two all stars or all star type players and upgraded the relief pitchers, I could go with that, because Lewis and/or Lee are worthy of taking over at SS, Polanco, Arraez, Gio and Miranda could be shuffled around to solidify the in field.

Just to remind people Ober and Winder were going to be on some sort of pitching restrictions this year and both pitched less in in 2002 than 2021. So I don't see them being used much different than they were planned to be this year, now they are 26 and 27 so I don't really care about protecting them any longer and should have zero restrictions on innings or pitches (besides you know the magical 100 pitches) and if they can't handle that well they should no longer be in any plan that includes them as a starter and be regulated to the bullpen or gone, you can't hold 40 man spots for pitchers that old that can't stay healthy. Same with Maeda if he is a starter he should be pushed until he is no longer effective who cares about protecting a 35 year old FA to be arm?

Isn't that the basically same team as 2202? minus a few swap outs? Mahle (currently injured) for Bundy AK (Currently injured) for Larnach Maeda (Currently injured) for Archer And Lopez for Pagan

The idea that a team trying to win that starts Gordon or Urshela at SS with the hope that Lewis and/or Lee will be there to the save the day isn't a team really trying to win or is a team without a real plan on competing. If Lewis had more than 40 major league at bats or wasn't coming off another year ending injury I would have a different opinion. With that said I could go for that if they Twins went out and got an all star type right handed outfielder (starting outfield of said right handed bat, Buxton and Laranch with Gordon and Kepler 4th and 5th outfielders. Arraez at 2B, Polanco at SS, Gio at 3B and Miranda and another solid vet at 1B and DH. And money spent on relief pitching, even though I am not really seeing any free agent pitchers jumping out to me (maybe Ottavino or Trevor Williams?), I don't see the Twins signing a starting pitcher for big money and keeping with the starting philosophy they have. Is it just me is this like the worst ever Free Agents besides SS and a few starters that will never be Twins?

Based on spotrac they spent 157 million dollars. They traded a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and pick and all the injured guys minus Polanco are regularly injured, so yes 2022 started well but they ended up 3rd in the central and under .500 that is pretty much the definition of poor. It wasn't terrible because they started well and developed Ryan, Miranda and Duran. But I respect that you think the season wasn't poor.

I love what Atlanta has done with their prospects, while the Twins seemingly get very old before coming up, Atlanta brings up a players regardless of their age. I don't disagree with with what you are saying, but do you see this FO doing that? We were told Ryan and Ober were on innings limits this year. I would love for them to put Duran in the rotation, but not as 5 innings 80 pitch pitcher, maybe a few starts at the beginning of the year but after that let him go.

I see what you are saying, but saying Jeffers and Kepler are bats might be a stretch. If they don't want pitching the trade simulator show Jeffers, Kepler, Polanco and Wallner being a slight over pay, you could replace Kepler with a young pitching prospect. Arraez and Miranda is larger overpay so I would assume the Twins would need something else back. Trading Arraez or Miranda without the other requires a Celestino and somebody else. To be honest none of those trades seem like things the Twins would do.

I would guess because he will be 25 next season, didn't pitch in 2020, threw 16 innings in 21 and 67 this year. If they moved him to a starter next year he would mostly likely be on an innings/pitches limit for the next two years. My two cents

I love what Duran did, but I can't give an award to a guy that pitched less than half the innings the other guy did. Ryan gets the award from me.

A "B"? If I am the Twins FO I am loving this, a third place finish under .500 grades as a B and the highest payroll ever (or one of the highest) and trading away a former 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 6th rounders (I believe that is correct), Can't imagine what a .500 second place grade is? I could see a C or C - if there was more development than just Ryan, Miranda, Duran and Jax to a lesser extent. For example if Ober came out and firmly placed himself in the top 4 starters, Winder established he was a for sure major league pitcher. Varland and Wallner were cute late additions but are they scream for sure major league players going forward. Or if they had established they weren't going into 23 with most of the same question marks as 22. IMO the first half of the season was a fairly solid B to B-, they were better than expected but still showing issues and continueing to do things that everybody seen was doomed to fail. The second half was a complete F. Now if they would have stopped pitching Bundy and gave more starts to Varland and SWR or brought up Wallner earlier that could have moved up to a D. So for the season I give them a D and I think I am being generous on that.

I don't disagree with this option, my question is who are you willing to trade for this pitcher? Straight up for somebody would likely take Duran, Ryan or Lee. Otherwise it would need a combo of players most likely Ober or Winder and another top prospect. Larnach value is fairly high on the trade simulator but not high enough to get a Lopez type and would need somebody like SWR. Polanco or Arraez also probably take a Winder or Ober or highly rated prospect. The free agent starting pitchers don't look that great either.