Twins 6, Yankees 1: Berrios, Sano Lift Twins to Series Victory

You think he was lazy because they were up five? Is that the context? I'd argue he was lucky it wasn't a tied game, not that he knew it wasn't a big deal due to the score.

I think he's saying that it wasn't a costly error because it didn't give the other team an extra out nor allow a run.  And with the score what it was, it wasn't likely to lose us the game either.  I don't think anyone's accused Grossman of being lazy, just not very good in left field.  Sometimes it hurts us more than others.  Today, it didn't hurt us much.

Of course, Grossman could be "fielding to the score", which was proven to be a thing a long time ago. . . .

No bullpen chart?

Breslow seems like an obvious candidate.

It's up now. Let's just say this was a road game for me, so I didn't have all my usual tools at my disposal.

I just wanted to say these recaps...these recaps are fantastic.

 

Fan(insert modifier of choice here)tastic.

Absolutely! You've taken the best sports fan site and actually managed to take it to another level!

(No pressure mind you-lol)

On a side note, this YOUNG Berrios kid has some good stuff and looks like a keeper doesn't He?

On a second side note, sure am glad the Twins, and Berrios himself, didn't listen to claims he was a "never was" after his rough indoctrination to the Majors in 2016. Almost makes you think we shouldn't give up on other talented young players on the team who may be learning/struggling at points.

(Nice guy laughter, not the twisted, evil kind)

Dear Twins FO,

I was wondering if you have and game video and statistics to compare myself, Breslow, Belisle and Pressley.

At this point, I figure you must have lost the footage and stats. It’s really the only explanation for them being in the majors instead of me. I even talked to an “advance analytics” guy because I know that you like that kind of stuff, and even he was confused.

Anyhoo I’ll send you some video footage and stat comparisons.
Everyone makes mistakes,
Alan Bunsenitz

What a nice contrast from old, big and done to young and talented.  Forget my ticket to the Big Sexy event, I prefer to see ball players.

Right there with you Tom! 45 years of watching this team, living and (figuratively) dyeing with them as well. Still remember sitting in my car listening to Kirby Puckett's first game on the radio. Remember the '82? team of Gaetti, Hrbek and others that fulfilled so much promise...eventually. And I remember the second WS team that offered so much hope and promise.

And while some want to poo-poo really good Twins teams who couldn't advance, much less win it all, a few years back, there was some real fun and mighty good baseball played in those days.

Maybe it's just one winning season in 5 years to this point. Maybe it's just Twins red, white, blue and Klondike gold colored glasses, (my personal joke on the Klondike gold), but I REALLY LOVE this team. "They suck! They're toast! They're done! Oh wait! They won again!"

We ALL love our Twins. If you don't, then find another website! Lol But praise or hate Ryan, (or Smith), praise or hate Falvey and Levine, (in their very limited tenure), there is just something fun, hopeful and engaging about this team. Their ultimate destination is unknown, 2017 and beyond. But as a fan, I'm having more fun than I have had in years. Maybe it's the rollercoaster experience...but maybe...just maybe...its because I see the talent, the potential, the way these guys love playing the game, and a future I can see.

Can we, just for a second, forget that every 25yo and under player is not an immediate Sports center highlight and enjoy what is building here?

Go Twins!

Thank you Tom!

(Hopping off my soapbox hoping I don't sprain an ankle)

Great write-up again, mister Froemming. Your work is being noticed. I cannot say by whom, for I do not know, but if I did...

...what was I talking about?

Oh no, the dog's got the baby!

Doc describes it perfectly with another level. May God give you the strength to carry on Tom!

Always knew that God was a Twins fan.  

Bullpen is starting to round into shape...for the late innings. I feel fine about Duffy (despite a few recent struggles), Rogers (who has been great), Kintzler (also great), and I'm starting to feel like Hildenberger can be a solid guy in the 6th-7th inning with potential to be a set-up man for this team. That's 4 guys you can start to have some confidence in.

The rest? Boshers is the only one I have any real hope for. I think if Chargois, Burdi, and May hadn't gotten injured we'd have already moved on from Belisle & Breslow and Pressly would be back in the minors trying to find himself. Frankly, I'm ready to walk away from Breslow regardless to get back a bench bat.

"we" don't, actually, when assessing how good a player is.

 

"in fairness" implied that it wasn't important to assessing if he is a good player or not, imo. Maybe I read that wrong. What did "in fairness" mean?

 

And yes, I very much am bothered by "another gear" in that situation, since you are pretty much saying he didn't care/try all that much there, compared to other times.

 

Also, "pitch to the score"? Years of analysis has been done on that, because that was Morris' point....and the data is clear, it's not really true.

I disagree with the last statement. There was one analysis by Joe Sheehan a very long time ago that I believe was actually a bit lazy and anything but definitive. He set up his own definition of "pitching to the score," tailored to his premises regarding what statistics should show, used a small sample size, and came to his predetermined outcome as a result. For many years, people have been repeating that this study definitively proved that Jack Morris defenders are idiots. There's been nothing new contributed to the topic. However, if you repeat something enough as if it's true, especially if you do so as someone who's smarter than "old school" fans, it eventually becomes true.

The fact is that teams actually do pitch and field to the score. For example, bringing in the infield when the score is close, or playing at double play depth when the score is not close. In one situation, the team is willing to concede a run to get an out (or two).  In the other situation, the team is trying its best to prevent a run. This does not mean that over a long time and large sample size that one strategy yields more runs than the other. However, the immediate concern of the team is not statistics, but winning the game. And the analysis should be what strategy wins the games, not what yields less runs over the long term.

Although it is less common today, someone like Ervin Santana shows that some pitchers are capable of pitching to complete games or at least going deep in games. That means not wasting pitches, pitching to the defense, and not worrying about strikeout totals, with the goal of saving the bullpen and shaking hands at the end of the game. It is also not proven whether pitchers who do this give up more or less runs over a long time and large sample size. However, in the context of a season, I believe it is very valuable for teams to have a Santana or Jack Morris, who goes deep into games. I would say that they are not so much "pitching to the score" as "pitching for a complete game win." However, the score can effect how much effort they have to put into run prevention as opposed to just getting enough outs to finish the game.

The ultimate historical example of this, in my opinion, was in 1991, in mid-August, the Twins were 1.5 up on the Oakland A's dynasty. We won a 12-inning game 1 of the series, with both teams emptying out their bullpens. The next day, Morris gave up 4 runs and went 9 innings, saving our bullpen, which was needed to win the third game of the series the next day.  Morris doesn't have a good ERA or even a quality start in the game, but it was probably the most important start of the season for the Twins, who never lost that lead in the division and buried our main competition in that series.

As far as I know, there's no statistical analysis on how valuable a pitcher is who saves a bullpen by going deep into games. Maybe that's something Joe Sheehan can disprove with some "thorough" analysis. And then we can all refer to it and repeat the conclusion until it's true.

"we" don't, actually, when assessing how good a player is.

 

"in fairness" implied that it wasn't important to assessing if he is a good player or not, imo. Maybe I read that wrong. What did "in fairness" mean?

 

And yes, I very much am bothered by "another gear" in that situation, since you are pretty much saying he didn't care/try all that much there, compared to other times.

 

Also, "pitch to the score"? Years of analysis has been done on that, because that was Morris' point....and the data is clear, it's not really true.

I think a good comparison here is a QB that heaves the ball towards the end zone from his own 40 yard line with 1 second left in the half, resulting in an interception in the end zone. It's clearly a throw he wouldn't make under other circumstances, and while it goes down as an interception, it doesn't really impact his team's chances to win.

Grossman's error didn't turn an out into a non-out. It didn't allow a run to score. Therefore, in a game the Twins were winning by 5 in the late innings, it's not particularly harmful--unlike Polanco's error on Thursday that allowed the Astros to continue a rally that ultimately won them the game. Both were errors, but with vastly different impacts and importance.

I agree it wasn't harmful. I don't understand the "in fairness" part that implies it's acceptable and not predictive of Grossman. That's been my question all along, what does "in fairness" mean, exactly? It's clear the OP thinks he wasn't trying fully, based on his words. That's not acceptable.

 

And again, that throw is part of an actual strategy to try something, and his action should be measured in the context of them trying something on purpose, and being willing to have an INT. What was Grossman trying at that moment that was strategic?

I think in fairness just meant if you're going to make an error (which every player will), making one that doesn't cost you an out or a run in a game you're winning by 5 in the late innings is the best time to do it.

And what does moving the infield in have to do with Grossman and his fielding not being indicative and not mattering? At all? One is strategy/tactics, one is a sloppy/bad play because "it wasn't important to give his best" at that time, at least I think that is your contention.

 

I also have no idea how this devolved into whether or not going deep in a game is helpful to the team. No idea.

You said pitching to the score was disproved by years of analysis.  That was the only sentence I was addressing in my post, as indicated in the first sentence of my post.