Guardians 5, Twins 4: Twins Waste Chances, Create Too Few, Cleveland Finds Chances Everywhere

13 minutes ago, chinmusic said:

I hear you, but isn't that like cutting off your nose to spite your face?

I, too, lay  significant blame on ownership for this mess. So frustrating to watch other contenders utilize deadline additions. But I still want the Twins to make the playoffs. Why not?  It's a long cold winter. Keep the relevance going for as long as possible, albeit as bleak as it looks.

 

I've been against the expansion of the wild card for the exact reason we're seeing. Whether it's the twins or the tigers, neither team is a "playoff" team. 

Why we playing 162 teams just to invite teams we all know are mediocre? 

I say this knowing my other team the Mets might be the beneficiary of that expansion. But not a fan in the world is chanting "We're number 12!". No one should be celebrating this team. At least they don't get a home game if they do limp in. Those seats would be empty, and rightfully so. 

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Why Henriquez? Why not Blewett, fully rested. If you can't trust every pitcher in your pen. But, wait, he did trust...Tonkin.

After tonight you have to play your best players every game. Each and every game until you have no more games to win (or lose). Period.

 

i wouldnt trust Henriquez with a 10 run lead in the bottom of the ninth..not MLB worthy pitcher.

9 hours ago, darwin22 said:

Can't say I remember this (I was 2.5 years old), but if referencing the 1967 Twins, you can hardly call that a collapse.  Twins held a 1-game lead in the final series of the season against Boston (at Fenway) after winning the 1st game, but dropped the final 2 games to finish in a 2nd place tie with Detroit.

To me that was a collapse , the twins  were leading the division and were the favorites to win  , it was a upset and Boston went on to lose to the cardinals in 1967 WS in 7 games ...

How can you not be fans of the twins!!! Seriously!!!! As I’ve said support our twins!!!! It’s way way too early for Vikings/wild/twolves!!!! As for MNUFC they shot themselves in foot with 2 month break. They are irrelevant!!! We need to support our twins!!!!! Especially now!!!!

11 minutes ago, MinnInPa said:

i wouldnt trust Henriquez with a 10 run lead in the bottom of the ninth..not MLB worthy pitcher.

Hyperbole. He'd fit in fine with a lot of bullpens. Most managers would be able to avoid using him in the 10th after being gifted a great start though. 

10 hours ago, S Bart said:

So, let's look at the owners. The Pohlads have money. They are #75 on the Forbes list with a worth of 3.8 billion dollars. Forbes lists the Twins team value as 895 million dollars. Old Man Pohlad bought the Twins from Calvin in 1984 for 44 million. Jim Pohlad (named owner) is tied for 8th on the chart link below.

MLB richest team owners in the U.S. 2024 | Statista

Not willing to spend money last month to improve pitching, announcing earlier this year that you (the owner) needed to save money by not willing to better the team, and not attempting to find out a solution to the broadcast issue earlier this summer which decreased you fan base....well it equals a non-caring owner.

Dear. Mr. Pohlad,

Either step up to the plate and put together a decent team via spending money or SELL THE TEAM, PLEASE>>>PRETTY PLEASE. When you invest in the team, you fill the seats, and build/maintain a caring fan base, and make money.

THANK YOU, 

A Twins fan since 1965

 

Everyone likes to point to franchise valuation as a reason the Pohlads are greedy.  Did you know that the growth in value you listed above is an annualized rate of return of 7.825%?  Seems pretty good until you realize that since 1984 the Dow Jones Industrial Average has grown at an annualized rate of 9.204%.

Put another way, on the basis of asset growth, the Pohlads have lost money by owning the Twins (about $80M) compared to if Carl had just put his original $44M in a generic DJIA fund, which would today be worth $978M.

Now obviously, the Pohlads have made operating profit on the Twins which surely outweighs that $80M (that is, if you added the franchise value to the post-tax profits for the last 40 years, it's surely a larger number than $978M).  However, this actually proves the point--if the Pohlads aren't making money on the Twins every year, they're actually losing money via opportunity cost.  I personally don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else that they should lose money.

1 minute ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Everyone likes to point to franchise valuation as a reason the Pohlads are greedy.  Did you know that the growth in value you listed above is an annualized rate of return of 7.825%?  Seems pretty good until you realize that since 1984 the Dow Jones Industrial Average has grown at an annualized rate of 9.204%.

Put another way, on the basis of asset growth, the Pohlads have lost money by owning the Twins (about $80M) compared to if Carl had just put his original $44M in a generic DJIA fund, which would today be worth $978M.

Now obviously, the Pohlads have made operating profit on the Twins which surely outweighs that $80M (that is, if you added the franchise value to the post-tax profits for the last 40 years, it's surely a larger number than $978M).  However, this actually proves the point--if the Pohlads aren't making money on the Twins every year, they're actually losing money via opportunity cost.  I personally don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else that they should lose money.

You aren't "losing money" if you're a billionaire and your asset is growing slower than some other asset. This is such loser billionaire worship akin to those that think Elon must be a genius since he's so rich. 

And no one has power over a market fund like the Pohlads do over the value of the Twins. There's no reason the Twins couldn't be valued as highly as the Cardinals. No reason other than indifferent/incompetent ownership for 40 years now. 

#EatTheRich (except Steve Cohen) 

29 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

I've been against the expansion of the wild card for the exact reason we're seeing. Whether it's the twins or the tigers, neither team is a "playoff" team. 

Why we playing 162 teams just to invite teams we all know are mediocre? 

I say this knowing my other team the Mets might be the beneficiary of that expansion. But not a fan in the world is chanting "We're number 12!". No one should be celebrating this team. At least they don't get a home game if they do limp in. Those seats would be empty, and rightfully so. 

You are aware that literally just last year the 5 seed in the AL beat the 6 seed in the NL to win the World Series, right?  Those were by overall record teams 8 and 12 in MLB in 2023.

2 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Seems that is clearly what the Manager did - he tried to use his Best available option with Henriquez. He’s throwing 97-98 but w/o command. His off speed got hit. Happens. Very unpleasant but theoretically, he’s better to get 3 outs than Tonkin or Blewett.

I think this is an important point. Just a few days ago I named all three of these guys as DFA candidates for any team in baseball and it's 100% true. Now, every team has those guys shuffle in and out, but a good organization will figure it out by the end of the season and either limit the number of guys like that in the pen, or at the least limit the number of high impact innings those arms will get. 

2 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

You are aware that literally just last year the 5 seed in the AL beat the 6 seed in the NL to win the World Series, right?  Those were by overall record teams 8 and 12 in MLB in 2023.

Yeah. And I think baseball is worse for it. 

I didn't watch a single game of the World Series because it wasn't even close to the two best teams. And neither did anyone else. It was the least watched ever. And I understand the trend is already that way, but allowing mediocre teams to get there doesn't help. 

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Why Henriquez? Why not Blewett, fully rested. If you can't trust every pitcher in your pen. But, wait, he did trust...Tonkin.

After tonight you have to play your best players every game. Each and every game until you have no more games to win (or lose). Period.

Blewett vs Tonkin is rearranging deck chairs while the Titanic sinks.

5 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

You aren't "losing money" if you're a billionaire and your asset is growing slower than some other asset. This is such loser billionaire worship akin to those that think Elon must be a genius since he's so rich. 

And no one has power over a market fund like the Pohlads do over the value of the Twins. There's no reason the Twins couldn't be valued as highly as the Cardinals. No reason other than indifferent/incompetent ownership for 40 years now. 

#EatTheRich (except Steve Cohen) 

You are losing money by opportunity cost.  You must realize this, right?  It's like trading for a 2 WAR player by giving up a prospect who became a 5 WAR player, and saying you didn't lose the trade because you got 2 WAR out of it.

There is absolutely reason, even with the Pohlads losing money, that the Twins might not reach the Cardinals valuation.  For one, the Cardinals have much less competition in their market than the Twins do in theirs (no NBA, no NFL for a good chunk of the last 40 years, and no major D1 university).  Second, just because you spend money doesn't mean you'll get results.  The Angels have outspent the Twins on payroll by hundreds of millions over the last decade, and have a much worse record, both in the regular season and the playoffs.

Ultimately, fans are far more likely to show up for games if the team is playing well than if the team is highly paid, and pretending the two are inexorably linked ignores reality.

I also don't worship billionaires, or particularly care at all about Elon Musk.  I just think it's ridiculous that you think you should have say in how they want to spend their money.

6 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Sub 3.00 ERA with a 97-98 mph fastball & a two run lead. Seems logical to me.

Sure, but era is about as useful a stat for relievers as Wins are for starters. Relievers themselves don't hardly pay attention to their own era. 

And what use is a 98 mph fastball if its one of the most destroyed pitches by hitters? Velocity is but one component.

And I don't say this to say Ronny is bad and shouldn't be a major leaguer. He could be a solid arm. But he isn't right now. 

Correa and Ober deserved better. 

Once again, our slumping offense puts too much pressure on our depleted bullpen. 
 

Sixth game since August 15 where we had a greater than 85% chance to win and we blew it in the final innings. 

5 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Yeah. And I think baseball is worse for it. 

I didn't watch a single game of the World Series because it wasn't even close to the two best teams. And neither did anyone else. It was the least watched ever. And I understand the trend is already that way, but allowing mediocre teams to get there doesn't help. 

So you would be in favor of simply handing the World Series trophy to whichever team finishes with the best regular season record?  That way we ensure the "best" team always wins.

Now that I think of it, that's probably not ok either.  We should crown the World Series champion at the end of the offseason, and not let the silly metric of who wins the game on the field determine who the best team is.

3 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

You are losing money by opportunity cost.  You must realize this, right?  It's like trading for a 2 WAR player by giving up a prospect who became a 5 WAR player, and saying you didn't lose the trade because you got 2 WAR out of it.

There is absolutely reason, even with the Pohlads losing money, that the Twins might not reach the Cardinals valuation.  For one, the Cardinals have much less competition in their market than the Twins do in theirs (no NBA, no NFL for a good chunk of the last 40 years, and no major D1 university).  Second, just because you spend money doesn't mean you'll get results.  The Angels have outspent the Twins on payroll by hundreds of millions over the last decade, and have a much worse record, both in the regular season and the playoffs.

Ultimately, fans are far more likely to show up for games if the team is playing well than if the team is highly paid, and pretending the two are inexorably linked ignores reality.

I also don't worship billionaires, or particularly care at all about Elon Musk.  I just think it's ridiculous that you think you should have say in how they want to spend their money.

I know we don't have a right to say how billionaires spend their money. And I understand opportunity cost. 

I also understand any billionaire that views their franchise merely as an investment opportunity is a loser and should be heavily criticized. As should any fan defending those owners. 

The owner in Major League wasn't the hero of that movie, even if her financial strategy was sound. 

10 hours ago, knothole61 said:

allow Duran to throw more than 11 pitches--do so, and the Twins would likely have notched a very important win tonight.   

Duran threw 30 the previous day. They can't use him for multiple innings every game.

9 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Btw, I was going to comment on the decision to let Santana bat in the 10th (0-4 at that point with RISPs and looking lost in each at bat)

Other posters have called him the clutch god MVP of the team. You don't pinch hit for the clutch god MVP of the team.

1 minute ago, NYCTK said:

I know we don't have a right to say how billionaires spend their money. And I understand opportunity cost. 

I also understand any billionaire that views their franchise merely as an investment opportunity is a loser and should be heavily criticized. As should any fan defending those owners. 

The owner in Major League wasn't the hero of that movie, even if her financial strategy was sound. 

Your second paragraph contradicts your first.  You have an opinion of how the Pohalds should operate their business (and it is a business first and foremost, else you'd have a hard time getting billionaires to write all those checks), and are roundly dismissive of anyone who doesn't behave in a manner you find appropriate.  You can opine the Pohalds spent more.  You can opine they would sell the franchise to a billionaire who likes to throw money around for clicks and giggles.  But you can't call someone a loser for wanting some level of return on their business, and then turn around and claim you agree you can't tell them how to run their business.

9 hours ago, S Bart said:

Nobody has commented on this topic. KC seems to be faltering this month also (lost last 4 games). They are in the 2nd wild card spot and only 1 1/2 games ahead of the Twins (3rd playoff spot) and 2 ahead of Detroit.

It would be nuts if Kansas City collapsed faster than the Twins.