2013 Trade Deadline

[Pius Jefferson]

Or, more likely, the prospect coming back wasn't worth anything close to $6m.

 

I don't blame JR for not trading any single player but I find it pretty damning that he didn't trade ANY players.

 

I hope you mean damning that the team is so awful that no players besides Perkins have actual trade value.

[TheLeviathan]

My take reading between the lines is Terry Ryan didn't just want to dump him, he wanted something worthwhile in return. I think the lack of any return, not the money, was the more decisive factor.

 

Except by all reports he never put the option of paying his deal on the table. The money is spent regardless - but what is a better use of that 6m? 2 months of the husk of Justin Morneau vs. a prospect.

 

To me that's a no brainer if the prospect has any potential whatsoever.

[old nurse]

That is impossible to defend. Iftrue that kind of passivity is unacceptable.

 

I need a car. There are lots of cars out there. I offer $10000 for a new Fiat. Do you think the salesman is going to be terribly aggressive in calling me back?

It takes two to make a deal. He did not want to trade Perkins unless he was blown away by an offer. Veras brought a low level outfield prospect and a ptbnl, Crain for variable considerations. Thornton brought back one solid outfield prospect. Does that sound like teams were spending a lot for a reliever? Was what was being offered what the Twins need?

To get Kennedy the Twins would have a problem. Duensing is doing far worse than the San Diego player, Tonkin is a better reliever in the minors, plus the equivalent of Adam Walker. You are giving up 2 potentially above average players for 2 years of a player. Would Kennedey fare well at Target field?

[old nurse]

Except by all reports he never put the option of paying his deal on the table. The money is spent regardless - but what is a better use of that 6m? 2 months of the husk of Justin Morneau vs. a prospect.

 

To me that's a no brainer if the prospect has any potential whatsoever.

Define potential. All players have potential.

Perhaps it is a no brainer to Ryan to have not traded for what was offered. Hitters were not traded at this deadline. If you were looking for a hitter does Morneau say that to you right now? Didn't see that anyone wanted a defensive 1b either.If you are contending can you risk that Morneau would turn out worse than what you have and cost you a spot in the playoffs. Why would a non contender want morneau

[drjim]

Except by all reports he never put the option of paying his deal on the table. The money is spent regardless - but what is a better use of that 6m? 2 months of the husk of Justin Morneau vs. a prospect.

 

To me that's a no brainer if the prospect has any potential whatsoever.

 

We have no idea on what the different offers were. Reports are that he offered money but wasn't satisfied with the return. We are speculating on if there was a limit to money or what the quality of the prospect actually was.

 

The ultimate fact is Morneau had virtually no value no matter how nuch money the Twins picked up. And any deal is probably still more or less there in August.

[amjgt]

Jim Bowden on ESPN grading all of the GMs

Terry Ryan, Minnesota Twins

http://espn.go.com/i/nfl/grades/grade_d.jpg

Ryan stubbornly refused to trade hometown boy Glen Perkins, which was probably a mistake for this rebuilding club. And the Twins' inability to eat salary is why Justin Morneau didn't get moved to a club like the Orioles. They were way too quiet considering how much improvement they need.

 

(insider) Grading the GMs at the deadline - ESPN

 

-----------------------------

 

I agree with his grade, but disagree with his premise that the reason we should have been more active was because of "how much improvement" we need. It's not like we'd be getting MLB ready guys (no matter who we dealt), so presumably the player(s) we got would be slotted somewhere in our minor league rankings and by all accounts our minor league system is one of the strongest in the league.

[amjgt]

FYI - The only grade worse went to Seattle's GM (D-)

[Mike Sixel]

Just wait for FA ....he is already laying the groundwork for not spending by talking up Hendriks, Albers, May, andeyer as being help next year. Does anyone think he will sign pitchers that block these guys. His job is to make the team better, he did not do that at the trade deadline.

[JB_Iowa]

. And the Twins' inability to eat salary is why Justin Morneau didn't get moved to a club like the Orioles.

 

I find this portion very curious. Why would the Twins have an "inability" to eat salary? I would say an UNWILLINGNESS to eat salary not an inability.

 

I guess we don't really know how unwilling they were -- it appears that they were willing to eat some salary, we just don't know how much. I just can't fathom how this team would be unable to eat salary.

[nicksaviking]

Jim Bowden on ESPN grading all of the GMs

Terry Ryan, Minnesota Twins

http://espn.go.com/i/nfl/grades/grade_d.jpg

Ryan stubbornly refused to trade hometown boy Glen Perkins, which was probably a mistake for this rebuilding club. And the Twins' inability to eat salary is why Justin Morneau didn't get moved to a club like the Orioles. They were way too quiet considering how much improvement they need.

 

(insider) Grading the GMs at the deadline - ESPN

 

This is good to hear. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I always thought Bowden was one of the national guys who thought TR could do no wrong. Every report that I have heard states no Morneau deal happened due to the Twins not eating money.

 

I would rather let Morneau walk than take on any more AAAA players to jam up the 40-man roster, but while the Orioles system is not loaded, they were moving organizational top 10 players this year. K-Rod may have more value than Morneau, but if salary wasn't a consideration, his value couldn't be much more, he is after all only a set-up man.

[drjim]

I'm really curious what the top offer for Perkins was.

 

The only upshot is if he doesn't regress his value will be the same in a year.

[nicksaviking]

I'm really curious what the top offer for Perkins was.

 

The only upshot is if he doesn't regress his value will be the same in a year.

 

I hope so, though I wonder how much more an elite closer fetches than simply a very good one. I wonder if the difference isn't negligible as closers are so replaceable.

 

Either way, time to get Tonkin up, it will be easier for TR to let him go if there look to be multiple options to replace Perkins.

[Mr. Brooks]

I need a car. There are lots of cars out there. I offer $10000 for a new Fiat. Do you think the salesman is going to be terribly aggressive in calling me back?

It takes two to make a deal. He did not want to trade Perkins unless he was blown away by an offer. Veras brought a low level outfield prospect and a ptbnl, Crain for variable considerations. Thornton brought back one solid outfield prospect. Does that sound like teams were spending a lot for a reliever? Was what was being offered what the Twins need?

To get Kennedy the Twins would have a problem. Duensing is doing far worse than the San Diego player, Tonkin is a better reliever in the minors, plus the equivalent of Adam Walker. You are giving up 2 potentially above average players for 2 years of a player. Would Kennedey fare well at Target field?

 

But what about in a situation where if the dealer fails to sell the car he loses it for nothing? I would think in that situation the dealer would take the best offer he could get.

[nicksaviking]

But what about in a situation where if the dealer fails to sell the car he loses it for nothing? I would think in that situation the dealer would take the best offer he could get.

 

Because the cops are on the way after getting a tip about coke and a dead hooker in the trunk?

[Oldgoat_MN]

I am a fan of letting Morneau play out his contract. I think it is a classy way to treat a player who has meant a lot to the Twins and has been good to MN in his off-field efforts.

However....

eating part of Justin's salary and letting him go to a team that is vying for a playoff spot would have looked like a kind move. The Orioles have terrible numbers at DH. Why not let Justin go there? Maybe a different hitting coach would make a difference. It didn't take the Orioles long to turn Hardy into a much better hitter than he was here.

Then, if so inclined, we could have signed him as a FA.

 

In the meantime we could have split 1B time between Parmelee and Colabello. Maybe we'd have learned something there.

 

Seems like a missed opportunity. For Justin and for us.

[Alex]

 

This FO has been passive in the FA market, passive in the international market (sans Sano, who was under Billy's watch), and passive at the trade deadline. I don't know any industry in the world where being passive is a more successful approach than being aggressive.

That doesn't mean you throw money around like a drunken sailor, but it does mean you have to be willing to go out on a limb and take more risks every once in a while.

 

 

I think this is right on. At the point we're at, the Twins have played it passive in every aspect. While there may be legit excuses for each individual instance, the pattern should be disturbing. The notable exception was trading away both CF. Of course, that led to the reckless promotion of Hicks, which I think is tough to argue as the right imove at this point. Still I liked the trades, but think they should have gone another direction in CF.

 

I also think it's worth pointing out that being passive in one respect can lead to being passive in another. Avoiding signing anything but bottom of the barrel FA meant that there wasn't going to much as far as trade options went this season unless someone played above potential.

[cmb0252]

I need a car. There are lots of cars out there. I offer $10000 for a new Fiat. Do you think the salesman is going to be terribly aggressive in calling me back?

It takes two to make a deal. He did not want to trade Perkins unless he was blown away by an offer. Veras brought a low level outfield prospect and a ptbnl, Crain for variable considerations. Thornton brought back one solid outfield prospect. Does that sound like teams were spending a lot for a reliever? Was what was being offered what the Twins need?

To get Kennedy the Twins would have a problem. Duensing is doing far worse than the San Diego player, Tonkin is a better reliever in the minors, plus the equivalent of Adam Walker. You are giving up 2 potentially above average players for 2 years of a player. Would Kennedey fare well at Target field?

 

Crain was on the DL when traded, Vera's is a RH RP having a career year, and while Thornton is a lefty he is 36 and not the same pitcher he used to be. How do any of these guys make a fair comparison to Perkins? Perkins is 30, LH, putting up better numbers, and has a good contract. He wasn't bringing in a top 10 prospect but he would have brought in a nice package.

 

Experts before the trade deadline and after the deadline suggested that teams would and were lined up at the door to try and trade for him. Not only did Ryan not aggressively shop him to see what we could get but he turned teams away. When you are as bad as us you have to listen to everyone. Hopefully this doesn't turn into Willingham 2.0.

[old nurse]

But what about in a situation where if the dealer fails to sell the car he loses it for nothing? I would think in that situation the dealer would take the best offer he could get.

 

The value of the use of the player for the remainder of their contract exceded any value the players offered would provide. Buters, Soriano, Maxwell and a couple of middle infielders were the only position players moved. The Twins had nothing comparable. You can't make a trade with no demand. The starters moved were of higher quality than the Twins had.

[old nurse]

Crain was on the DL when traded, Vera's is a RH RP having a career year, and while Thornton is a lefty he is 36 and not the same pitcher he used to be. How do any of these guys make a fair comparison to Perkins? Perkins is 30, LH, putting up better numbers, and has a good contract. He wasn't bringing in a top 10 prospect but he would have brought in a nice package.

 

Experts before the trade deadline and after the deadline suggested that teams would and were lined up at the door to try and trade for him. Not only did Ryan not aggressively shop him to see what we could get but he turned teams away. When you are as bad as us you have to listen to everyone. Hopefully this doesn't turn into Willingham 2.0.

Would you have been happy with a comparable package as was dealt for other relievers in return in a proposal for Perkins? You ignore that point. Not much was given up for relievers. The value of Perkins to the Twins was more than the value offered.

[cmb0252]

Would you have been happy with a comparable package as was dealt for other relievers in return in a proposal for Perkins? You ignore that point. Not much was given up for relievers. The value of Perkins to the Twins was more than the value offered.

 

I don't understand what you are saying. Why would you expect Perkins to get a comparable package? Fransisco Rodriguez got the O's #4 prospect which was considered an overpay. Most experts see the Veras trade as even because both gain something from it. Thornton had mixed opinions depending on what you think of Jacobs and we have no idea what the Crain-trains return is.

[jay]

But what about in a situation where if the dealer fails to sell the car he loses it for nothing? I would think in that situation the dealer would take the best offer he could get.

 

The first mistake here is assuming the dealer gets nothing from keeping that car on the lot. In reality, the dealer gets to keep driving that car every day and he likes the ride. Telling the dealer that you'll trade him your 1987 Geo and that's great because it might turn in to a collector's item (the odds of a low level prospect making even a marginal MLB impact) really doesn't help much.

 

If your only option as the dealer is to give away the cars on your lot for minimal return, you'd probably rather just take nothing. Otherwise, everyone else will see that you sell your cars for cheap and expect the same deal. If I know that dealer sold you a car for eight dollars, why would I ever let him think I'd pay the true value of $10 grand in the future?

 

Bottom line... I absolutely wanted TR to make more moves than he did, but I can see and understand a case for not. A trade to make a trade doesn't always help you in the long run, even if that prospect you got has some exceptionally small margin above zero opportunity to be a successful major leaguer.

[jay]

At the point we're at, the Twins have played it passive in every aspect. While there may be legit excuses for each individual instance, the pattern should be disturbing. The notable exception was trading away both CF. Of course, that led to the reckless promotion of Hicks, which I think is tough to argue as the right imove at this point. Still I liked the trades, but think they should have gone another direction in CF.

 

I'm not sure what other directions were realistic, so this seems like playing both sides of the fence. -- I want you to take more risks, but those risks better work out. --

 

I agree on the passiveness and the cause for concern, but let's at least pick one side to play.

[old nurse]

I don't understand what you are saying. Why would you expect Perkins to get a comparable package? Fransisco Rodriguez got the O's #4 prospect which was considered an overpay. Most experts see the Veras trade as even because both gain something from it. Thornton had mixed opinions depending on what you think of Jacobs and we have no idea what the Crain-trains return is.

Delmonico may be the Orioles number 4 prospect but that it not saying much. Baltimore ranks in the bottom 1/2 for prospect rankings. See Santana trade for what that means. Middle releivers are not commanding much. Except for top of rotation guys the trade deadline did not net the trading teams great prospects. Ryan would have wanted staring pitching. Did you see much movement in potential top of the rotation prospects?.

[Kwak]

I wonder if Morneau has hit the August waiver wire--yet?

[drjim]

I wonder if Morneau has hit the August waiver wire--yet?

 

I would hope so. Clear him now and hope that he runs off a couple of good weeks.

 

About 10 years ago Boston did something similar with David Wells. Ran him through right away when he was struggling, he put a couple of good starts together and they traded him to San Diego for a catcher that got a little run (though was more of a AAAA guy).

[Mr. Brooks]

Nearly every single player in the league, on a 40 man roster will hit the waiver wire today.

[jorgenswest]

I wonder if Morneau has hit the August waiver wire--yet?

 

This type of waiver (not outright) can be thought of as recall waivers. At some point most teams will put most of their roster on these waivers in August. It is important to know that a player of claimed can only be recalled by the original team once in the month. The Twins will want to time it well and possibly have a potential deal in place before loading the waiver list with their roster.

[TheLeviathan]

We have no idea on what the different offers were. Reports are that he offered money but wasn't satisfied with the return. We are speculating on if there was a limit to money or what the quality of the prospect actually was.

 

The ultimate fact is Morneau had virtually no value no matter how nuch money the Twins picked up. And any deal is probably still more or less there in August.

 

Most reports say we were unwilling to eat salary, that's the problem tht unravels your post.

[TheLeviathan]

I need a car. There are lots of cars out there. I offer $10000 for a new Fiat. Do you think the salesman is going to be terribly aggressive in calling me back?

 

Well this can get taken care of easily. Your whole analogy is flawed because it utterly ignores a common practice of the sales industry: advertising. Companies selling things (especially ones floundering and desperately needing to unload merchandise) aggressively seek out buyers all the time. By all accounts we were not only passive in approaching others but cold shouldered in fielding calls and proposals.

 

Imagine your eagerness to buy from salesmen that ignores you exist nd doesn't have the time of day for you. That's the problem.

[drjim]

Most reports say we were unwilling to eat salary, that's the problem tht unravels your post.

 

The only source I saw say that was Bowden. Others such as Wolfson said differently.