Let's Not Overlook the Value of Christian Vázquez

[KBJ1]

We have proven depth behind Kepler & Polanco, they must be traded for pitching so we can sign a power hitting Left fielder.

Vazquez we don't have proven depth behind.

While Carmago sounds intriguing,  he isn't seasoned at the major league level yet. It's taken Jeffers several years to get there. God help us if he goes down and all we have is Carmago & no one else.

[LA Vikes Fan]

5 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Garver can't catch, and Rortverdt was out for a year and can't hit. Both of those were the right move for a team with this budget and depth. Not even close.

5 hours ago, harmony55 said:

To cut payroll, would anyone trade Christian Vazquez and Edouard Julien to Seattle for six years of righthander Bryce Miller?

Probably not but Baseball Trade Values calls the swap a fair trade with a minimal edge to the Twins.

https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/trades/151029

That's not really  a good way to use BTV. They give Vasquez a -10 because of his contract, not because of his value as a player. He has positive value as a player so Julien and Vasquez for Miller is a terrible deal unless you're desperate to move the contract that you attach a high upside young player to get someone to take on the money. Negative as we are about the payroll there's no indication that a salary dump is in the works. 

[stringer bell]

5 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

They traded away their #1 catcher  Garver, their future #1 Rortvedt and not drafting any decent catching prospects. Not leaving any competition for their hand picked backup catcher. It's make or break with Jeffers. I don't like the odds.

Obvious that you aren’t a Jeffers fan. Jeffers had a fine season and as a 27-year-old coming off a breakout campaign, it might be reasonable to increase his role…..maybe to catch as much as 100 games. For the record, I’ve believed in Jeffers as a hitter since his promotion in 2020  I wasn’t sure about his defense, but thought he more than held his own in 2023  

$10M for Vázquez to catch 60 games? Will he, at 33/34 come back to be an average hitter?

I think there’s more questions/concerns about Vázquez than Jeffers, but it would be a gamble to go without half of what was a successful tandem next season. 

[old nurse]

10 hours ago, ashbury said:

Yes, but those numbers for 2023 don't support the narrative people seem to want:

Jeffers ERA: 3.61

Vazquez ERA: 4.09

 

I was looking for a reason as to why they should keep him. Notice I typed If.  One thing that I figure on is a few of the people here are good with easily finding the answer. Thanks for knowing where to look

[tony&rodney]

Ok then, it is settled. The Twins will keep Christian Vazquez and Ryan Jeffers as their catchers, and hope they are even better in 2024 than they were in 2023. 

Well.  ..... that is for sure unless one or the other is traded, get injured, or decides to retire. 

[TopGunn#22]

Doc Bauer laid out a very good case why trading Vasquez could be beneficial to the Twins.  I agree with his take that Camargo is probably ready and probably deserves a chance.

One thing we ALL agree on is that we're not going to just give him away in a salary dump.  I think the self-imposed payroll reduction is short sighted.  But in reality, this is so true to form for the Twins after a division winning season that I'm expecting it.

#1  Our catching tandem is solid (though not as good as the Braves with Murphy and d'Arnaud).

#2  We're not just giving Vasquez away

#3  BBTV aside, last year, Lopez was valued higher than Arraez and we still got a couple of lottery ticket prospects in addition to Lopez because the Marlins WANTED Arraez.  The Marlins NEED a catcher.  (the Mariners do not.  They have Cal Raleigh).  Would the Marlins do a Vasquez for Edward Cabrera straight up?  Would they take Kepler and Vasquez for Cabrera and another pitcher? (Sixto Sanchez?)  If I'm the Twins, I'm doing that.  I get one or two young pitchers.  Cabrera fills the Maeda rotation spot immediately, and I shed $20 million in future salary while promoting Camargo. 

The Marlins are overstocked with pitching and have needs elsewhere.  They made the playoffs last year in a stacked division.  The Braves and Phillies are tough.  The Mets will certainly be better.  Steve Cohen will spend the money to make it so.  But the Marlins LIKED being in the playoffs and even with pitching being at a premium they part with some to improve their team.

Kepler and Vasquez for Cabrera and Sanchez is something I would do.  But if the Marlins or anyone else thinks they can get Vasquez for a Class-A marginal prospect, forget it.  I'll hang onto Vasquez and consider trading him next off season.  

[Twinsrtheworst]

22 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Yes Garver was on his way out of #1 but Garver's defense was just as good as Jeffers if not debatibly better & was a better hitter. NYY even deep in catching saw Rortvedt's potential. Rortvedt is an excellent defensive catcher that once started to focus on his hitting he was showing progress & as a LH hitter he'd prove to be very useful offensively. But he got stuck in the NYY system & they wrecked him. Jeffers that had more years of availibilty & more experience than Rortvedt was a much more valuable trade piece than Garver & Rortvedt combined. IMO Jeffers was not even close as one to be traded. We went from top tier to toilet with 0 depth in that trade.

If we didn't get Vazquez & we had to depend on Jeffers as our primary catcher again this last year our catching would still be in the toilet & our rotation would not have noticeably  acheived what they had.

Ok well just trust me..Jeffers is and was and will be more valuable than your Garver and Ben R. Yankees didnt wreck Rorvedt...he just wasn't good.  Garver never was a strong D catcher.  Still don't see how we bet the farm?

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, TopGunn#22 said:

Doc Bauer laid out a very good case why trading Vasquez could be beneficial to the Twins.  I agree with his take that Camargo is probably ready and probably deserves a chance.

One thing we ALL agree on is that we're not going to just give him away in a salary dump.  I think the self-imposed payroll reduction is short sighted.  But in reality, this is so true to form for the Twins after a division winning season that I'm expecting it.

#1  Our catching tandem is solid (though not as good as the Braves with Murphy and d'Arnaud).

#2  We're not just giving Vasquez away

#3  BBTV aside, last year, Lopez was valued higher than Arraez and we still got a couple of lottery ticket prospects in addition to Lopez because the Marlins WANTED Arraez.  The Marlins NEED a catcher.  (the Mariners do not.  They have Cal Raleigh).  Would the Marlins do a Vasquez for Edward Cabrera straight up?  Would they take Kepler and Vasquez for Cabrera and another pitcher? (Sixto Sanchez?)  If I'm the Twins, I'm doing that.  I get one or two young pitchers.  Cabrera fills the Maeda rotation spot immediately, and I shed $20 million in future salary while promoting Camargo. 

The Marlins are overstocked with pitching and have needs elsewhere.  They made the playoffs last year in a stacked division.  The Braves and Phillies are tough.  The Mets will certainly be better.  Steve Cohen will spend the money to make it so.  But the Marlins LIKED being in the playoffs and even with pitching being at a premium they part with some to improve their team.

Kepler and Vasquez for Cabrera and Sanchez is something I would do.  But if the Marlins or anyone else thinks they can get Vasquez for a Class-A marginal prospect, forget it.  I'll hang onto Vasquez and consider trading him next off season.  

If the Marlins would trade Cabrera and Sanchez for Kepler and Vasquez.

I wouldn't wait for the Marlins to finish talking before saying yes. You wouldn't even need to ask the Marlins to include Sanchez.   

Acquiring two starting pitchers both age 25 at the league minimum salary. Cabrera having 5 years of control and Sixto with 6 years of control.

The Marlins get 1 year of a 30 Year old OF and 2 Years of a 33 year old catcher on a free agent contract with an AAV that is higher than the other 29 teams were willing to pay a year ago before a rather disappointing 2023 at the plate.   

20 Million off the books that can be spent to replace Kepler. Two young controllable starters. 

I can't see the Marlins doing that. 

 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

If the Marlins would trade Cabrera and Sanchez for Kepler and Vasquez.

I wouldn't wait for the Marlins to finish talking before saying yes. You wouldn't even need to ask the Marlins to include Sanchez.   

Acquiring two starting pitchers both age 25 at the league minimum salary. Cabrera having 5 years of control and Sixto with 6 years of control.

The Marlins get 1 year of a 30 Year old OF and 2 Years of a 33 year old catcher on a free agent contract with an AAV that is higher than the other 29 teams were willing to pay a year ago before a rather disappointing 2023 at the plate.   

20 Million off the books that can be spent to replace Kepler. Two young controllable starters. 

I can't see the Marlins doing that. 

 

I don't disagree with you as far as the deal proposed, which sends contracts to the cost conscious Marlins. 

Edward Cabrera is still held in favor by baseball folks due to his potential. However, he has really struggled with control and is now out of options. Miami has used those options in hopes that Cabrera could improve his control. Thus far it has not worked. Miami may be willing to move Cabrera but will likely want players who have talent and have control in return. I have no idea what Miami wants. I do know what they need and maybe they have an interest in Vazquez. Kepler would be a vast overpay and the Twins need Max imho.  I'm not sure the Marlins have any interest in guys like Larnach, Winder, Sands, and Schobel. Hopefully there could be conversations between the clubs. Cabrera is a gamble for any team.

Sixto Sanchez has had a rough few years. 2019 was his last year on the mound. Supposedly healthy in 2023, he threw one inning. I read a report that he topped out at 85 on his once 99 mph fastball. I lost the article, so sorry for no link. I did watch a video of his inning, where he hit 86 mph with his fastball according to the announcer. That speed doesn't impress Senior Mens' Leagues. Something went south for poor Sixto. In the video he looks larger than I remember him and he was always a big boy in the mid 200s lbs.

[Riverbrian]

3 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

I don't disagree with you as far as the deal proposed, which sends contracts to the cost conscious Marlins. 

Edward Cabrera is still held in favor by baseball folks due to his potential. However, he has really struggled with control and is now out of options. Miami has used those options in hopes that Cabrera could improve his control. Thus far it has not worked. Miami may be willing to move Cabrera but will likely want players who have talent and have control in return. I have no idea what Miami wants. I do know what they need and maybe they have an interest in Vazquez. Kepler would be a vast overpay and the Twins need Max imho.  I'm not sure the Marlins have any interest in guys like Larnach, Winder, Sands, and Schobel. Hopefully there could be conversations between the clubs. Cabrera is a gamble for any team.

Sixto Sanchez has had a rough few years. 2019 was his last year on the mound. Supposedly healthy in 2023, he threw one inning. I read a report that he topped out at 85 on his once 99 mph fastball. I lost the article, so sorry for no link. I did watch a video of his inning, where he hit 86 mph with his fastball according to the announcer. That speed doesn't impress Senior Mens' Leagues. Something went south for poor Sixto. In the video he looks larger than I remember him and he was always a big boy in the mid 200s lbs.

It wasn't my proposal. 👍

Although... To simplify it. Removing Sanchez and Vasquez. 

I don't think Kepler for Cabrera alone is an overpay. 1 year at 10M for 5 years of a starting pitcher at league minimum is a price I would pay although being out of options is a moment for pause.  

[harmony55]

5 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

Doc Bauer laid out a very good case why trading Vasquez could be beneficial to the Twins.  I agree with his take that Camargo is probably ready and probably deserves a chance.

One thing we ALL agree on is that we're not going to just give him away in a salary dump.  I think the self-imposed payroll reduction is short sighted.  But in reality, this is so true to form for the Twins after a division winning season that I'm expecting it.

#1  Our catching tandem is solid (though not as good as the Braves with Murphy and d'Arnaud).

#2  We're not just giving Vasquez away

#3  BBTV aside, last year, Lopez was valued higher than Arraez and we still got a couple of lottery ticket prospects in addition to Lopez because the Marlins WANTED Arraez.  The Marlins NEED a catcher.  (the Mariners do not.  They have Cal Raleigh).  Would the Marlins do a Vasquez for Edward Cabrera straight up?  Would they take Kepler and Vasquez for Cabrera and another pitcher? (Sixto Sanchez?)  If I'm the Twins, I'm doing that.  I get one or two young pitchers.  Cabrera fills the Maeda rotation spot immediately, and I shed $20 million in future salary while promoting Camargo. 

The Marlins are overstocked with pitching and have needs elsewhere.  They made the playoffs last year in a stacked division.  The Braves and Phillies are tough.  The Mets will certainly be better.  Steve Cohen will spend the money to make it so.  But the Marlins LIKED being in the playoffs and even with pitching being at a premium they part with some to improve their team.

Kepler and Vasquez for Cabrera and Sanchez is something I would do.  But if the Marlins or anyone else thinks they can get Vasquez for a Class-A marginal prospect, forget it.  I'll hang onto Vasquez and consider trading him next off season.  

Many Seattle fans contend the Mariners need a catcher if free agent Tom Murphy signs elsewhere.

The Mariners face a balancing act of keeping Cal Raleigh fresh and rested while keeping his bat in the lineup nearly every day. Seattle's backup catcher should see significant playing time behind the plate while Raleigh serves as designated hitter.