Were the M & M Boys Worth Building Around?

[bwille]

With the recent surge of Justin Morneau over the last few games and with Joe Mauer showing signs of beginning to break out of his slump, I began to wonder if the two "faces of the Twins' franchise" were worth building around. Granted, a huge reason I started thinking about this was because this may be the last year the two play together in a Twins' uniform, but I thought it was an interesting topic and I decided to write an article voicing my opinion about it.

 

In addition, with every loss, the Twins--in my opinion--get closer and closer to saying goodbye to Morneau.

 

"For all of the criticism that Mauer and Morneau have received, 2013 has the makings of another productive year which should remind fans why the Twins have chosen to build around these two stars. When healthy, these two players can produce and make the Twins’ lineup one of the best in all of baseball as long as they are surrounded by a quality supporting cast."

Joe Mauer: Minnesota Twins Must Decide if M&M Boys Can Be Built Around

What do you think Twins' Centric, were Mauer and Morneau worth building a franchise around?

 

[Seth Stohs]

[h=2]Were the M & M Boys Worth Building Around?[/h]

 

Yes.

[jokin]

What do you think Twins' Centric, were Mauer and Morneau worth building a franchise around?

 

 

Based on the last two offseasons, I think you should be asking this question of the Twins FO. Their actions seem to say "No!".

[PseudoSABR]

Ain't this the risk of building a ball club around a core of young players? But the conventional wisdom--which seems prudent to me--is when you have a young core of superstar players, build around them!

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yes. Absolutely. With 100% certainty. Mauer and Morneau were two of the best young hitters in all of baseball.

 

You can't predict what happened to Morneau. It's awful, sad, horrible, blah blah blah... But mostly, it's just chance.

 

And it's the kind of risk you take by giving two baseball players a lot of money and trying to win.

[Thrylos]

Morneau will be 32 in a week and has a line of .259/.303/.366 which is eeriely close to the .266/.305/.357 that then 25 year old Delmon Young had before he was traded.

 

Nothing to build around an aging first baseman with a .669 OPS other than the ghost of Morneau's past (which is what most Twins' fans remember and think that Morneau might be again what he was when he was in his prime.) Sad to see him go like this, because he had been great for the Twins

 

Mauer is a different story.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Morneau will be 32 in a week and has a line of .259/.303/.366 which is eeriely close to the .266/.305/.357 that then 25 year old Delmon Young had before he was traded.

 

Nothing to build around an aging first baseman with a .669 OPS other than the ghost of Morneau's past (which is what most Twins' fans remember and think that Morneau might be again what he was when he was in his prime.) Sad to see him go like this, because he had been great for the Twins

 

Mauer is a different story.

 

In case you missed it, this thread used "were" in the title, which I assume means the 2008-2010 period in which both players were extended.

[Thrylos]

In case you missed it, this thread used "were" in the title, which I assume means the 2008-2010 period in which both players were extended.

 

I did not miss that, but this confused me, because it talks about the future and someones alternate reality of the present (bold) :

 

"For all of the criticism that Mauer and Morneau have received, 2013 has the makings of another productive year which should remind fans why the Twins have chosen to build around these two stars. When healthy, these two players can produce and make the Twins’ lineup one of the best in all of baseball as long as they are surrounded by a quality supporting cast."

 

Morneau has not produced at decent levels since his injury...

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ah, gotcha. Fair enough. I assumed it was talking about the past based on the title.

[Halsey Hall]

I would have titled it "Are the M & M........"

[Boom Boom]

If I was putting together a team, I think Maris and Mantle would be a great place to start.

[Boom Boom]

But seriously... Mauer is an elite player. Morneau was very good, but I'm not sure he ever was a cornerstone type of player.

[Aaron Cross]

Well, how many playoff games have they won together? The Twins (and most Twins fans) say the name of the game is getting to the playoffs. A better measuring stick is how do you do when you get there? I'd say building around these two has been an abject failure.

[gunnarthor]

The Twins built around a core of pretty good players (besides the M&Ms, Santana, Kubel, Baker, Hunter and Cuddyer were all extended at least one FA year) and made the playoffs several times. It was a great idea and I think they got snake bit a little in health - esp Morneau. But it was absolutely the right thing to do and it looks like the next group of players - Hicks, Arcia, Gibson etc - will also be a group to build around.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Well, how many playoff games have they won together? The Twins (and most Twins fans) say the name of the game is getting to the playoffs. A better measuring stick is how do you do when you get there? I'd say building around these two has been an abject failure.

 

Yes, let's get riled up about their 68 (combined) Plate Appearances in the postseason.

 

That's a great measuring stick of a baseball player.

[Aaron Cross]

0-9 is a pretty good measuring stick.

 

Actually 1-12, and I fully realize mauer missed 2004 and morneau missed 09 & 10. Imagine that. Injuries. Another reason for not building around them.

[Guest USAFChief]

But seriously... Mauer is an elite player. Morneau was very good, but I'm not sure he ever was a cornerstone type of player.

From 2006-2010, when M&M were "cornerstones" and decisions were made to sign them to "cornerstone" contracts, Morneau's numbers are similar to Mauer's, maybe even better. Yeah, he's a first baseman, but hitters that good don't grow on trees, and those numbers in your lineup don't lose value because of where he stands when he plays defense.

[gil4]

They were the two best players on a contending team. Both won MVP awards (although I didn't think Morneau should have.) They are the kind of players that good teams build around.

 

The problem was not that they built around them. The problem was they didn't build. The Hardy trade/Nishi deal was a killer. There was no reason to expect Nishi to be that bad,

but he was a risk, and there was also no reason to believe he would be better than the known quantity already in hand. Instead of fixing real problems, Bill Smith was busy gambling with areas of strength.

 

It probably wouldn't have mattered much because the pitching fell apart so badly and so quickly that making all the right moves probably wouldn't have put them back into contention.

 

I believe Mauer still is capable of being the best player on a contender when healthy, which is not as often as we'd like but still fairly often.

 

Morneau just hasn't been the same since the injury, although he has always run hot and cold. I would really love to see one more extended hot streak this year. A lot of things would have to fall into place, but there are pieces there that could still make this year interesting. They are right arount .500. Hicks is hitting .120 - that could improve. Arcia could hit more. Morneau could get hot. Mauer hasn't hit like he can for most of the season. Worly could pitch better. Pelfrey might be getting over his surgery and starting to pitch better. Plouffe could start to hit again.

 

When a team plays .500 ball with as many things going wrong as the Twins have had, there is hope for improvement. Of course, Correia will probably turn back into a pumpkin and the likely improvement from the other guys only takes them from horrible to adequate. It would still be nice to stay in contention and then start plugging in some of the super prospects next year.

[Brock Beauchamp]

0-9 is a pretty good measuring stick.

 

Actually 1-12, and I fully realize mauer missed 2004 and morneau missed 09 & 10. Imagine that. Injuries. Another reason for not building around them.

 

68 Plate Appearances.

 

Besides, Morneau has a good postseason line at .937 OPS.

 

Mauer's is lower at .673 but it only illustrates how pointless it is to get riled up about ~40 PAs... Add in that double that Phil Cuzzi blatantly took from Joe and his OPS jumps into an acceptable range.

[Brock Beauchamp]

From 2006-2010, when M&M were "cornerstones" and decisions were made to sign them to "cornerstone" contracts, Morneau's numbers are similar to Mauer's, maybe even better. Yeah, he's a first baseman, but hitters that good don't grow on trees, and those numbers in your lineup don't lose value because of where he stands when he plays defense.

 

Justin was a very good player with the ability to be jaw-droppingly good at times (see the first half of 2010).

 

Position matters when you're trying to roster-build but at the end of the day, performance trumps positions. By any metric or comparison available, Morneau was very much a "cornerstone-type player".

[Boom Boom]

Justin was a very good player with the ability to be jaw-droppingly good at times (see the first half of 2010).

 

Position matters when you're trying to roster-build but at the end of the day, performance trumps positions. By any metric or comparison available, Morneau was very much a "cornerstone-type player".

 

He had a very good first half. We can't assume he would have kept up that pace if he hadn't been kneed in the noggin, in fact it's more likely he would have regressed. Morneau has a history of dropping off in August and September, even when healthy. I'm sure we can find lots of examples of very good players who had eye-popping half-seasons.

[Brock Beauchamp]

He had a very good first half. We can't assume he would have kept up that pace if he hadn't been kneed in the noggin, in fact it's more likely he would have regressed. Morneau has a history of dropping off in August and September, even when healthy. I'm sure we can find lots of examples of very good players who had eye-popping half-seasons.

 

Very true. But even if Morneau slid in the second half, he probably would have posted an OPS north of .900. Last season, there were only 11 players with an OPS north of .900, two of them with an OPS of .902 or lower.

 

No matter how you look at it, that's elite territory and makes his injury all the more unfortunate.

[Guest USAFChief]

Very true. But even if Morneau slid in the second half, he probably would have posted an OPS north of .900. Last season, there were only 11 players with an OPS north of .900, two of them with an OPS of .902 or lower.

 

No matter how you look at it, that's elite territory and makes his injury all the more unfortunate.

It's not just 2010. Moreau from 2006-2010: .934, .834, .873, .878, 1.055. One MVP, one 2nd place MVP.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's not just 2010. Moreau from 2006-2010: .934, .834, .873, .878, 1.055. One MVP, one 2nd place MVP.

 

Oh, I know. Which is why I said he ranged from "very good" (2007-2009) to "jaw droppingly good (2006 and 2010).

 

Overall, he was a cornerstone player no matter how you look at it. He's not a Miggy Cabrera-type cornerstone but then again, few are.

[nicksaviking]

They were both great players to build around, the Twins just failed to properly suplement them by providing them with the necissary upgrades for the various deficiencies found on the team both midseason and during the offseasons.

 

The "build for tomorrow" theory was the part that was a disaster. The Twins identified Mauer and Morneau as the two guys they needed to keep but then refused to deal prospects or take on salary to put the team over the hump.

[gunnarthor]

They were both great players to build around, the Twins just failed to properly suplement them by providing them with the necissary upgrades for the various deficiencies found on the team both midseason and during the offseasons.

 

The "build for tomorrow" theory was the part that was a disaster. The Twins identified Mauer and Morneau as the two guys they needed to keep but then refused to deal prospects or take on salary to put the team over the hump.

 

I'm not sure that's completely true. In 2010, we added salary and traded away prospects in win-now trades. They added some good vets in Pavano, Thome and Hudson. Would we look back at 2010 differently if Liriano hadn't blown a 3 run lead or Hardy took a 94mph fastball after CC loaded the bases? Or if Morneau/Nathan had stayed healthy? That 2010 team was built to win. It didn't but that doesn't mean it couldn't have.

[Otto von Ballpark]

0-9 is a pretty good measuring stick.

 

I just realized that Joe Mauer has never won a playoff game. Not a knock on him, but boy have we had a bad run in the postseason lately...

[ashbury]

If I was putting together a team, I think Maris and Mantle would be a great place to start.

 

The recent PG-rated commercials have me thinking those little candy guys could be good too.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Well, how many playoff games have they won together? The Twins (and most Twins fans) say the name of the game is getting to the playoffs. A better measuring stick is how do you do when you get there? I'd say building around these two has been an abject failure.

 

That in itself is a subjective statement with which not everyone will agree.

[nicksaviking]

I'm not sure that's completely true. In 2010, we added salary and traded away prospects in win-now trades. They added some good vets in Pavano, Thome and Hudson. Would we look back at 2010 differently if Liriano hadn't blown a 3 run lead or Hardy took a 94mph fastball after CC loaded the bases? Or if Morneau/Nathan had stayed healthy? That 2010 team was built to win. It didn't but that doesn't mean it couldn't have.

 

They added some vets in the first year at Target Field, but they played most of their competitve baseball at the Metrodome and they failed to take advantage of the decade large window that was open to them. It closed after the 2010 season, they needed to make a stand long before then.