MLB teams to provide housing for minor leaguers in 2022

[Seth Stohs]

3 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I thought I had read somewhere (on here, I think) that they do pay, but it is very reasonable. Maybe @Seth Stohs knows? 

I know that the players pay to stay in the dorm/academy if they come early... I really don't know if they pay in-season... I don't think so, and if they do, it's not much. 

[Rosterman]

Nope, not going to build. Would more than likely lease.

 

Think of the hardship of players who do have a family or a spouse and are paying for some sort of housing elsewhere. If you spouse has a job, why would they spend the summer with you.

 

The problem (or benefit) of a stipend is how it is spent. You can rent a whole house pretty cheap and put a lot of people into the Animal House (assuming you can get it for six months. Not like players need a formal dining room and such. Of course, when renting you also need furnishings of sort, be it a bed at least. The joys of host families in the good old days was that a player got a sleeping room, usually was comfortable in shared space and such, for a modest sum. They are on the road every other week, and spend most of their free time NOT at home.

 

Even major league players skimp. Was it Dustan Mohr that just rented out a hotel room during his short stays in the majors. Could vacate it when on the road. Of course, he was getting a major league salary. Billy Gardner lived in a room at a Super 8. I think Trevor May basically had a mattress and his computer setup in his apartment.

 

Jamming many bodies into housing has been the norm for people since the days of off-campus housing on campus. Should be same in minors where you only need limited clothes because you have to travel, and may move around at least once during the summer.

 

The key is controlling short-term housing. Every ball club does this, working with hotel chains when on the road for a BIG block of rooms at a set price. And if you can put two players (in the minors) in a room, well...better than the private suites major league players have now. Roommates...that is something I unfondly remember!

 

Also, if it is team supplied housing, it isn't like giving players a taxable stipend, in some ways. Businesses always like to give free stuff to people that they can deduct as an expense and that they don't have to pay payroll taxes on.

[RonCoomersOPS]

5 hours ago, Sousy said:

 

The Twins might be in a somewhat decent position with having onsite dorms in Fort Myers, and what has to be pretty cheap housing / cost of living scenarios in Cedar Rapids, Iowa and Wichita, Kansas.

That, and the whole "being owned by billionaires" thing.

[DocBauer]

I'm probably too smart or progressive as a highly intelligent semi-middle class individual to fully appreciate this bit of news as I've argued for a couple of years now that if I were an owner I'd be working hard to make MY organization a model one.

The Ft Myers complex is state of the art. But why would I stop there? Unless there were restrictions placed on me, I'd be offering as much salary as I could for milb players, as many benefits as I could for them, as they are the lifeblood of my franchise.

Why not make players and agents eager to work with me? Why not give the players in my milb pipeline all the advantages I could to contribute to the future success of my ML team?

I would have been doing this years ago. 4 kids in a 1 room or 2 room apartment? Kids sleeping in their cars and dreaming of being on the road so they could sleep in a bed vs an air mattress? 

I think the "select" has to be attributed to 40 man roster players, as well as those who may already have access to dormitories,  etc. But we will see.

I don't think the arguement of "short term leases" is really that big of a deal. There ARE complexes who do short term leases. And you're going to tell me that in milb cities they don't already do this?

Regardless,  it's time the franchises stepped forward to do something like this. Not only should have been done before,  but wish the Twins had been at the forefront.

Goodness knows the MLBPA doesn't give a crap about milb, even though they all spent time there. 

[Twinsrtheworst]

On 10/18/2021 at 6:28 PM, Squirrel said:

I went back and found this thread from a couple years ago. Was a woman who ran the host family program for the Wahoos. Some interesting insights about housing for the players and some of the difficulties it is for players.

https://twinsdaily.com/forums/topic/32419-blue-wahoos-host-family-program/?tab=comments#comment-825813

Yes this is fact, I've had the opportunity to meet many host families.  That's why I questioned your original post.  There seems to be alot of misinformation on here sometimes....unfortunately..

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, se7799 said:

Yes this is fact, I've had the opportunity to meet many host families.  That's why I questioned your original post.  There seems to be alot of misinformation on here sometimes....unfortunately..

Which post? About the dorm in Ft Myers? I wasn't confident about it and Seth clarified it.

[Twinsrtheworst]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

Which post? About the dorm in Ft Myers? I wasn't confident about it and Seth clarified it.

Yes, all good.  From the players and coaches I have spoke with, they do not pay for the dorms in Fort Myers, as stated.  I guess I miss read, that you said they did pay..  

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 10/18/2021 at 2:16 PM, Mike Sixel said:

Concur. 

One thing people seem to miss when looking at how "easy" it is to get an apartment....what apartment wants to rent for 6 months? What apartment wants to rent to a group that will likely see turnover in it? It isn't as easy as "there are apartments out there" as some seem to think. This is, hopefully, a good first step. Hopefully it is free, and doesn't come out of their pay. 

Any apartment that has a current opening, and no imminent lessee willing to do a 12 months lease.  They take 6 months in rent, and then look to bring someone in later.  It also shouldn't be hard to get to creative with Airbnb, for example.  Below is a quick search I did for Wichita, KS--you'll notice the second result is an entire townhouse, 3 bedrooms, for $49 a night ($1500 a month).  Perhaps that would be more expensive in the summer months, but I would imagine that could be easily offset by working with the host to do an extended arrangement--maybe pay $1200 a month for 6 months, and in return for the lesser pay, the host wouldn't need to clean or worry about finding someone new every 1-3 days.  With a little bit of internet legwork and creativity, finding housing should not be that hard for these players.

Also, just to clarify, I'm not against MLB taking the mantle of providing housing--seems like a perfectly reasonable perk to offer.  I just disagree with this idea that it's somehow a Herculean task for adult men in 2021 America to find affordable housing.

https://www.airbnb.com/s/Wichita--Kansas--United-States/homes?tab_id=home_tab&refinement_paths[]=%2Fhomes&flexible_trip_dates[]=november&flexible_trip_dates[]=october&flexible_trip_lengths[]=weekend_trip&date_picker_type=flexible_dates&query=Wichita%2C Kansas%2C United States&place_id=ChIJLRh_0mrbuocRPj3TdL_VlpM&source=structured_search_input_header&search_type=autocomplete_click

[Cap'n Piranha]

On 10/18/2021 at 9:04 PM, DocBauer said:

I'm probably too smart or progressive as a highly intelligent semi-middle class individual to fully appreciate this bit of news as I've argued for a couple of years now that if I were an owner I'd be working hard to make MY organization a model one.

The Ft Myers complex is state of the art. But why would I stop there? Unless there were restrictions placed on me, I'd be offering as much salary as I could for milb players, as many benefits as I could for them, as they are the lifeblood of my franchise.

Why not make players and agents eager to work with me? Why not give the players in my milb pipeline all the advantages I could to contribute to the future success of my ML team?

I would have been doing this years ago. 4 kids in a 1 room or 2 room apartment? Kids sleeping in their cars and dreaming of being on the road so they could sleep in a bed vs an air mattress? 

I think the "select" has to be attributed to 40 man roster players, as well as those who may already have access to dormitories,  etc. But we will see.

I don't think the arguement of "short term leases" is really that big of a deal. There ARE complexes who do short term leases. And you're going to tell me that in milb cities they don't already do this?

Regardless,  it's time the franchises stepped forward to do something like this. Not only should have been done before,  but wish the Twins had been at the forefront.

Goodness knows the MLBPA doesn't give a crap about milb, even though they all spent time there. 

I've thought about this too--I'm sure the pay is uniform across organizations, otherwise the entire Top 100 list would be all but owned by the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, etc. who would happily have MiLB payrolls of $30M to $40M, if not more.  If other, non-salary benefits are the same (i.e., the Twins can't just provide housing, or give $100 a day in per diem, or cater 3 meals a day, etc), then that explains that as well.  However, if non-salary perks are not regulated, then the question becomes--if doing things like I mentioned are permissible, why is no team doing them?  We have to allow for the possibility that no team thinks paying that extra money actually improves performance.  That would include teams run by highly intelligent people (which is essentially all of them now).

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

And you've sent how much of your money out of the goodness of your heart to the minor leaguers to help with their struggles?  It fascinates me how often people want to call other people greedy, while having no problem with proposing how to spend other people's money.

This is a fallacy and don’t even think about going here again. Not solving a specific financial issue with one’s own money does not invalidate concern over that issue. It’s a deflection, not a legitimate point about a situation on this scale. 

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

Any apartment that has a current opening, and no imminent lessee willing to do a 12 months lease.  They take 6 months in rent, and then look to bring someone in later.  It also shouldn't be hard to get to creative with Airbnb, for example.  Below is a quick search I did for Wichita, KS--you'll notice the second result is an entire townhouse, 3 bedrooms, for $49 a night ($1500 a month).  Perhaps that would be more expensive in the summer months, but I would imagine that could be easily offset by working with the host to do an extended arrangement--maybe pay $1200 a month for 6 months, and in return for the lesser pay, the host wouldn't need to clean or worry about finding someone new every 1-3 days.  With a little bit of internet legwork and creativity, finding housing should not be that hard for these players.

Also, just to clarify, I'm not against MLB taking the mantle of providing housing--seems like a perfectly reasonable perk to offer.  I just disagree with this idea that it's somehow a Herculean task for adult men in 2021 America to find affordable housing.

https://www.airbnb.com/s/Wichita--Kansas--United-States/homes?tab_id=home_tab&refinement_paths[]=%2Fhomes&flexible_trip_dates[]=november&flexible_trip_dates[]=october&flexible_trip_lengths[]=weekend_trip&date_picker_type=flexible_dates&query=Wichita%2C Kansas%2C United States&place_id=ChIJLRh_0mrbuocRPj3TdL_VlpM&source=structured_search_input_header&search_type=autocomplete_click

If you go back to the link I posted of a thread that was started by a woman who organized housing for the team in Pensacola, she said this about housing in her market in summer:

"In Pensacola...Summer is our high tourist season, so players are competing with condos on the beach which rent for crazy amounts, and every other guy and his dog putting their spare living spaces on Air BnB. That has made it a little harder than most areas to find player housing."

Not all housing markets are created equal. What might seem 'easy' to you in Witchita is obviously not in other parts of the country, which might be why MLB has stated 'certain minor leaguers'. I'd like to hear the details of it before I start lumping everyone in the same boat, because they aren't. In some areas it just might be a Herculean task and it would be best not to judge it all the same. If there are many players complaining about this, then it isn't just a matter of budgeting and questioning if adult men are working hard enough to find an affordable place to live.

There are a lot of variables that neither you nor I nor anyone else knows. But I'm glad that MLB will be working to provide some relief.

[Cap'n Piranha]

31 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

If you go back to the link I posted of a thread that was started by a woman who organized housing for the team in Pensacola, she said this about housing in her market in summer:

"In Pensacola...Summer is our high tourist season, so players are competing with condos on the beach which rent for crazy amounts, and every other guy and his dog putting their spare living spaces on Air BnB. That has made it a little harder than most areas to find player housing."

Not all housing markets are created equal. What might seem 'easy' to you in Witchita is obviously not in other parts of the country, which might be why MLB has stated 'certain minor leaguers'. I'd like to hear the details of it before I start lumping everyone in the same boat, because they aren't. In some areas it just might be a Herculean task and it would be best not to judge it all the same. If there are many players complaining about this, then it isn't just a matter of budgeting and questioning if adult men are working hard enough to find an affordable place to live.

There are a lot of variables that neither you nor I nor anyone else knows. But I'm glad that MLB will be working to provide some relief.

You're right--not all markets are equal.  That said, I'm willing to guess many more MiLB markets are closer to Wichita in pricing than Pensacola.  Further, there is no rule that states MiLB players must reside in the town their games are played in--I imagine rents decrease dramatically if one looks in Molino, Pace, or Seminole (just for example).  I simply refuse to believe that it's nigh impossible for adult men to figure out a way to find reasonably priced housing within 30-40 minutes of where they play.

I also categorically reject the idea that simply because a lot of people complain about something means they're automatically telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Going back to the first individual mentioned in the ESPN article that seems to have kicked off the whole debate on this site--he blew a $400k signing bonus in 2 years.  What do we call that if not poor budgeting?  The idea that every player complaining about their living conditions has been good at budgeting just does not jive with any kind of sober review of reasonable budgeting.  Is MiLB pay great?  No.  Is it sufficient to live on?  Yes.  And for the vast majority of 18-24 year-olds, there is nothing that would prevent them from making ~$28k a year while playing in MiLB, which gives them $2k after taxes to live on.

[Mike Sixel]

14 minutes ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

When a person says someone else should fix a problem out of the goodness of their heart, it is not a fallacy to ask why that person doesn't try and fix the problem out of the goodness of their heart.  If 100 posters on this site who think MiLB players' living situations are a travesty each sent $25 a month to a MiLB player, it would go a long way towards fixing the alleged problem, and would be of minimal impact to the posters (skip buying one coffee a week, or eating out once a month).  That would be very easy to do, but it's seemingly more enjoyable to blame the billionaires than actually take action.

The topline--if an individual believes there is a problem, and they are unwilling to put their own money towards solving it, they should not impugn anyone else for not putting their money towards it either.

It isn't out of the goodness of their heart to pay living wages to employees, but we'll just 100% disagree on that. The players have zero freedom to negotiate their pay (or even their employer).....all the power is on one side, granted by the government in opposition to freedom and capitalism. Ergo, the only way they can get paid fairly (that is, what they are worth).....MLB needs to impose things on them.

If you think they are paid what they are worth, make them all FAs and see what they are paid.

[Cap'n Piranha]

18 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

It isn't out of the goodness of their heart to pay living wages to employees, but we'll just 100% disagree on that. The players have zero freedom to negotiate their pay (or even their employer).....all the power is on one side, granted by the government in opposition to freedom and capitalism. Ergo, the only way they can get paid fairly (that is, what they are worth).....MLB needs to impose things on them.

If you think they are paid what they are worth, make them all FAs and see what they are paid.

We do disagree, but I respect your opinion on it, as you've always been very classy.

There's no question the majority of baseball players are paid well below what they are worth (in terms of the revenue they can bring in for their employer).  That said, that is true of almost any entry to mid level employee in any industry.

Unfortunately, there is currently no way for players to be able to freely negotiate across all teams, and baseball as a national sport still exist.  Within a few years you would be left with something akin to European soccer leagues, where there are only 2-4 teams capable of competing at the highest level, and a large underclass of teams that exist solely to fill out schedules and provide the occasional player for the elite teams.

What would actually be very interesting to me is a league where all revenues are owned by the league, and distributed in equal part to all franchises, who were then given spending guidelines (floors and ceilings).  However, even in that scenario, you'll still have issues in competitiveness--while money won't determine where players go, the best teams will have major advantages in signing new talent.  A system where bad teams are given advantages in procuring future talent is the only way to prevent a completely oligarchic distribution of talent.

Would I love to see a truly capitalistic baseball league?  Yes: if I were a Yankees/Red Sox/Dodgers fan.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

We do disagree, but I respect your opinion on it, as you've always been very classy.

There's no question the majority of baseball players are paid well below what they are worth (in terms of the revenue they can bring in for their employer).  That said, that is true of almost any entry to mid level employee in any industry.

Unfortunately, there is currently no way for players to be able to freely negotiate across all teams, and baseball as a national sport still exist.  Within a few years you would be left with something akin to European soccer leagues, where there are only 2-4 teams capable of competing at the highest level, and a large underclass of teams that exist solely to fill out schedules and provide the occasional player for the elite teams.

What would actually be very interesting to me is a league where all revenues are owned by the league, and distributed in equal part to all franchises, who were then given spending guidelines (floors and ceilings).  However, even in that scenario, you'll still have issues in competitiveness--while money won't determine where players go, the best teams will have major advantages in signing new talent.  A system where bad teams are given advantages in procuring future talent is the only way to prevent a completely oligarchic distribution of talent.

Would I love to see a truly capitalistic baseball league?  Yes: if I were a Yankees/Red Sox/Dodgers fan.

I actually agree the worst teams should get advantages in adding talent......I just disagree that they are paying that talent even close to what they should be paid. And, thanks for the nice words. 

I think the worst teams should get even more advantage....but that's a different topic.

[Rosterman]

Major league baseball controls all revenue? Now we start getting into issues The Olympics face, as well as collegiate athletics.

 

In Minnesota, we don't lose a player simply because they can get paid more by a New York, Chicago or Los Angeles team. They often look at it as an opportunity to get that secondary income, by being product spokespeople. And even Nike will come calling if you are in a big market team, compared to Minnesota or Kansas City. Can a team control wages you earn when not required to be at the stadium or on the field? Can major league baseball control you and your likeness, shades of the Days of the WWF/WWE!

 

In major league baseball, rooms on the road are blankedly paid by the team, but players (I assume) get the same meal money, no matter what town they are in, and it always seems to be more than enough, combined with food at the clubhouse (where they tip the clubhouse people) or the more rich players picking up the occasional check. But a hotel room in Minneapolis compared to NYC, there is a difference.

 

Also, I always wonder about cars in the minors. The length-of-time from the end of spring training to get to your new location (that is where I see the housing issue, how do players find places to live fast and easy, especially if they are not sure we they are going...happens to major league guys, too). 

 

Yes, think about that. You are in Florida, thinking you will be in Ft. Myers to start the season but told you are the 25th man on the roster to go to Cedar Rapids, but that will probably change when so-and-so rehabbing at Ft. Myers needs to be added to the Cedar Rapids roster. Where do I live.

[PseudoSABR]

5 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

You're right--not all markets are equal.  That said, I'm willing to guess many more MiLB markets are closer to Wichita in pricing than Pensacola.  Further, there is no rule that states MiLB players must reside in the town their games are played in--I imagine rents decrease dramatically if one looks in Molino, Pace, or Seminole (just for example).  I simply refuse to believe that it's nigh impossible for adult men to figure out a way to find reasonably priced housing within 30-40 minutes of where they play.

I also categorically reject the idea that simply because a lot of people complain about something means they're automatically telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Going back to the first individual mentioned in the ESPN article that seems to have kicked off the whole debate on this site--he blew a $400k signing bonus in 2 years.  What do we call that if not poor budgeting?  The idea that every player complaining about their living conditions has been good at budgeting just does not jive with any kind of sober review of reasonable budgeting.  Is MiLB pay great?  No.  Is it sufficient to live on?  Yes.  And for the vast majority of 18-24 year-olds, there is nothing that would prevent them from making ~$28k a year while playing in MiLB, which gives them $2k after taxes to live on.

Why heck are you so in favor of putting burdens on employees (live in different town, have 8 adults in a 4 bedroom house, why doesn't everyone just sleep in a drawer in a large dresser--ok, the last one is Seinfeld), and not putting the burden on those who could most efficiently afford to absorb it, the owners/mlb? 

[Squirrel]

20 hours ago, Cap'n Piranha said:

You're right--not all markets are equal.  That said, I'm willing to guess many more MiLB markets are closer to Wichita in pricing than Pensacola.  Further, there is no rule that states MiLB players must reside in the town their games are played in--I imagine rents decrease dramatically if one looks in Molino, Pace, or Seminole (just for example).  I simply refuse to believe that it's nigh impossible for adult men to figure out a way to find reasonably priced housing within 30-40 minutes of where they play.

I also categorically reject the idea that simply because a lot of people complain about something means they're automatically telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Going back to the first individual mentioned in the ESPN article that seems to have kicked off the whole debate on this site--he blew a $400k signing bonus in 2 years.  What do we call that if not poor budgeting?  The idea that every player complaining about their living conditions has been good at budgeting just does not jive with any kind of sober review of reasonable budgeting.  Is MiLB pay great?  No.  Is it sufficient to live on?  Yes.  And for the vast majority of 18-24 year-olds, there is nothing that would prevent them from making ~$28k a year while playing in MiLB, which gives them $2k after taxes to live on.

Again, did you read the thread I linked? The woman who organized housing for players asked some basic questions. One of them was about distance to the stadium and if players had a car. Some barely speak English which makes navigating this even further difficult. And no, I don’t believe the pay is sufficient. So on that we will have to agree to disagree, but this thread was started based on the news that MLB teams will now work to supply housing for certain players, not sure which ones or how, so we will have to wait and see how this will be implemented as we may end up agreeing on who and who not. But as was also stated not all players get a large signing bonus and after taxes and agent fees the many who get maybe $10k are left with very little, and with families to support, that it doesn’t get them very far. It takes a lot of players to fill out teams at all levels for all organizations, and elite signing bonuses are for the few, not the many; but that thread with the ESPN article was the previous thread

[Cap'n Piranha]

19 hours ago, PseudoSABR said:

Why heck are you so in favor of putting burdens on employees (live in different town, have 8 adults in a 4 bedroom house, why doesn't everyone just sleep in a drawer in a large dresser--ok, the last one is Seinfeld), and not putting the burden on those who could most efficiently afford to absorb it, the owners/mlb? 

Because living in a different town is hardly a burden (or do you think everyone who worked in person at Target corporate on Nicollet Avenue lived in Minneapolis?).

Nowhere have I advocated 8 adults in a 4 bedroom house--I've advocated 3-4 adults combining to rent a 3-4 bedroom house.  The couple of searches I've done for Madison, AL, and Wichita, KS show this to be possible for $300-$400 a month, well below the 25% threshold for rent/mortgage most experts recommend.

So in reality, the question should be why are you  so in favor of insisting adult men not be treated like adult mean vis a vis being expected to responsibly manager their own financial choices, to the point that you are grossly exaggerating the size of the so-called burden?

[Cap'n Piranha]

10 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Again, did you read the thread I linked? The woman who organized housing for players asked some basic questions. One of them was about distance to the stadium and if players had a car. Some barely speak English which makes navigating this even further difficult. And no, I don’t believe the pay is sufficient. So on that we will have to agree to disagree, but this thread was started based on the news that MLB teams will now work to supply housing for certain players, not sure which ones or how, so we will have to wait and see how this will be implemented as we may end up agreeing on who and who not. But as was also stated not all players get a large signing bonus and after taxes and agent fees the many who get maybe $10k are left with very little, and with families to support, that it doesn’t get them very far. It takes a lot of players to fill out teams at all levels for all organizations, and elite signing bonuses are for the few, not the many; but that thread with the ESPN article was the previous thread

Bean broke this down in the previous thread, and showed that of the roster of the CR Kernels, well more than half had signing bonuses of at least $90k--even with taxes and fees, they should have cleared $35k to $40k easy.  If that is used responsibly to supplement their pay, which is around $16k a year, as I've outlined as well (at A/A+ it's $11k for the 22 week season, plus $1,650 in road per diems, plus $3,220 in ST pay [this is probably a low number, as it's 28 days of $115 pay, which is what the Rays pay for a player living in the team hotel--other teams are known to pay more]), MiLB players would have no problem making ends meet.  The $16k number accounts for 26 weeks, which gives every player 26 other weeks to make $12k in order to hit a total of $28k pre-tax, which is enough, in any state in the country, to net $2k every month--to do that, a player need only make $11.53 an hour at 40 hours a week.

Now for a sincere question--I've yet to see from anyone claiming MiLB players are criminally underpaid either of two numbers.

#1--what is the actual annual amount an 18-24 year old individual needs to live reasonably (private bedroom, reasonable amount for food and bills, some left over for saving)

#2--what is the actual amount MiLB players should be paid, keeping in mind that the vast majority do not, and never will, provide any on-field benefit to the MLB team.