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On New MLB Proposal, How it Relates to the Twins and a Potential Solution

Tom Froemming

By Tom Froemming
in Minnesota Twins Talk

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Vanimal46 GOAT

Vanimal46

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

No. It's behind a paywall.

 

But I dont need Ken Rosenthal's opinion in this case, anyway.

 

Rob Manfred isnt the one damaging the sport.

Lol. Gotta love commenting on a topic you didn’t read... let me catch you up.

 

The owners sent a letter to the MLBPA last night saying there will be no season unless they waive any legal claims against the league. Now why would that be important? Hmm...

 

Could it be they don’t want a grievance filed against them because they know they’ll lose? And show they haven’t been negotiating in good faith this whole time? Weird.

 

I also posted an exact quote from that article stating at least 8 owners don’t want to have baseball played this year.

 

But continue to go ahead and blame nothing but the players. Jeezus.

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Tomj14 Draft Eligible

Tomj14

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

 

Lol. Gotta love commenting on a topic you didn’t read... let me catch you up.

The owners sent a letter to the MLBPA last night saying there will be no season unless they waive any legal claims against the league. Now why would that be important? Hmm...


 

Is this about the players not being able to sue? if lets say the get covid and pass it on to somebody that dies? I don't know the answer just asking.

But if that is case, I wouldn't open either.
 

Major League Ready Wichita Wind Surge

Major League Ready

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

 

I'm still blaming the players. Completely.

If not for the players, they'd be in 'spring training' as we speak. And there'd be games played the first week of July.

But they are so greedy they think they're above the economic realities of 2020. Above the rest of us.

If you cant see that I don't know what to tell you.

 

I agree more than I disagree but both sides have handled the negotiations poorly so the owners deserve some of the blame too. The whole thing went off the rails because of how the March agreement specifically the part about economic feasibility without fans present was handled. I place 90% of that blame on the union because they decided they would simply ignore the part about renegotiating if fans were not present. The memo is quite clear so it is convenient that the union asserts this was not understood. Negotiations after that initial agreement were doomed because the union just ignored the part of the original agreement that did not suite them.

 

Sure, they followed up and verified terms would need to be negotiated if fans were not present. However, what were both sides thinking? The probability fans would not be present was very high. They drafted an agreement based on an assumption that was very unlikely. If they wanted to start with an agreement based on fans being in the stands, fine. However, they should have went straight to negotiating terms without fans present. The owners really screwed up when they did not proceed directly to negotiating terms without fans present and the union pretended like that part of the agreement did not exist.

 

That would have forced the MLBPA to assert the position they did not agree to negotiate terms in the absence of fans in attendance. Then, the league could have asked for immediate arbitration on this key point. I have read the memo several times. Unless it has been falsified, I just can’t see how an arbitrator does not find that the union be required to negotiate based on financial metrics without fans present. Perhaps this would have focused the negotiations on solutions that were feasible. 

 

One final note: Lawyers for the owner's should documented the understanding regarding "fan presence" and presented it to the MLBPA's attorneys for their signature instead of just sending an internal memo outlining the discussion surround economic feasibility. Therefore, ownership or at least their counsel is partly to blame. I just don't understand how someone in ownership did not as their representation to get signed documentation. Of course, we don't have all the facts.

In My La Z boy Draft Eligible

In My La Z boy

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

 

Lol. Gotta love commenting on a topic you didn’t read... let me catch you up.

The owners sent a letter to the MLBPA last night saying there will be no season unless they waive any legal claims against the league. Now why would that be important? Hmm...

Could it be they don’t want a grievance filed against them because they know they’ll lose? And show they haven’t been negotiating in good faith this whole time? Weird.

I also posted an exact quote from that article stating at least 8 owners don’t want to have baseball played this year.

But continue to go ahead and blame nothing but the players. Jeezus.

The owners sent the letter because of coronavirus and the liability - no different than the Trump rally attendees on Saturday. It is a free Country - still - Players can play if they sign, or don't play. My employees can come to work - or not - I can go to the Trump rally - or not. 

And this business about the value of major league teams, and its relation to profits. That line of thinking is just dumb. I am never selling my business. I have sons, and grandchildren. It is just disingenuous to conflate annual profitability to value - I will never see the value I've created. I'm not selling.

So because I could receive a future hypothetical windfall - I shouldn't care about this years profits?

Baseball is not a non-profit charitable endeavor.

Now I will agree that it is very stupid to make your customers angry. I am a baseball customer and I am angry about this. I think the baseball owner should fear angering their customers, and I do think the owners are making a mistake here.

USAFChief GOAT

USAFChief

Twins Daily Contributor
Posted
Posted

Lol. Gotta love commenting on a topic you didn’t read... let me catch you up.

 

The owners sent a letter to the MLBPA last night saying there will be no season unless they waive any legal claims against the league. Now why would that be important? Hmm...

 

Could it be they don’t want a grievance filed against them because they know they’ll lose? And show they haven’t been negotiating in good faith this whole time? Weird.

 

I also posted an exact quote from that article stating at least 8 owners don’t want to have baseball played this year.

 

But continue to go ahead and blame nothing but the players. Jeezus.

Van, you're smarter than this. A liability waiver?

 

C'mon, that's not about player salaries.

Rosterman Ft Myers Mighty Mussels

Rosterman

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

Well, it is summer and not sure how many people will be religiously following the games on television. Especially if the league teams change and all. Plus who will be playing and when and how much.

 

You can put fans in the stands if fans practice social distancing and if all don't want to sit in the saqme plae. Shared surfaces (railings, restrooms, concession areas) are a problem, as is the selling of concessions. People would need to pickup after themselves. No more spitting sunflower seeds at random.

 

The issue is...do people sit out a full two weeks if they have it, or not. Where do the extra "30" players hangout that each team has on the expanded emergency roster.

 

Better yet, where can prospects play. The Twins, at Ft. Myers, could easily house 120 players and have four teams that play each other in games, just to work on skills. Can you keep all those guys and coaches basically isolated and quarantined for 30 days or even 60 days to just play good old baseball?

Hosken Bombo Disco All-Star

Hosken Bombo Disco

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted

The owners sent the letter because of coronavirus and the liability - no different than the Trump rally attendees on Saturday. It is a free Country - still - Players can play if they sign, or don't play. My employees can come to work - or not - I can go to the Trump rally - or not. 

And this business about the value of major league teams, and its relation to profits. That line of thinking is just dumb. I am never selling my business. I have sons, and grandchildren. It is just disingenuous to conflate annual profitability to value - I will never see the value I've created. I'm not selling.

So because I could receive a future hypothetical windfall - I shouldn't care about this years profits?

Baseball is not a non-profit charitable endeavor.

Now I will agree that it is very stupid to make your customers angry. I am a baseball customer and I am angry about this. I think the baseball owner should fear angering their customers, and I do think the owners are making a mistake here.

Pohlad doesn’t seem likely to sell, but I’d bet at least half the franchises have changed hands or changed control in the past 15-20 years.
Vanimal46 GOAT

Vanimal46

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Is this about the players not being able to sue? if lets say the get covid and pass it on to somebody that dies? I don't know the answer just asking.

But if that is case, I wouldn't open either.

 

Nope, the grievance doesn’t have to do with covid. Though that is another wrench to work out. This grievance would require the owners to open their books and prove the financial hardship they’re crying about. The owners naturally do not want to do that because they will lose.

 

https://twitter.com/joelsherman1/status/1271947744660410370?s=21

Vanimal46 GOAT

Vanimal46

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

The owners sent the letter because of coronavirus and the liability - no different than the Trump rally attendees on Saturday. It is a free Country - still - Players can play if they sign, or don't play. My employees can come to work - or not - I can go to the Trump rally - or not.

 

And this business about the value of major league teams, and its relation to profits. That line of thinking is just dumb. I am never selling my business. I have sons, and grandchildren. It is just disingenuous to conflate annual profitability to value - I will never see the value I've created. I'm not selling.

 

So because I could receive a future hypothetical windfall - I shouldn't care about this years profits?

 

Baseball is not a non-profit charitable endeavor.

 

Now I will agree that it is very stupid to make your customers angry. I am a baseball customer and I am angry about this. I think the baseball owner should fear angering their customers, and I do think the owners are making a mistake here.

The grievance has nothing to do with covid.

Vanimal46 GOAT

Vanimal46

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Van, you're smarter than this. A liability waiver?

 

C'mon, that's not about player salaries.

The grievance is about player salaries and negotiating in good faith to play the most games possible. Please read up on the topic.
In My La Z boy Draft Eligible

In My La Z boy

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

 

Also, any opinion on the report that 6-8 owners would prefer not playing baseball at all? Those darn players are at it again.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/six-mlb-owners-dont-want-to-play-2020-season-per-report/

The government shut all of our businesses down. As the government has begun to greenlight openings, some are opened, some still not. This decision is made by each business owner, not the employees. I am not reopening my business if I know before I start that I will lose money. What is the point? My profit is my paycheck. Do you work for free?
I do understand baseball owners are not me, and are not small business, but I do believe principles are principles. Your side of the argument - Blake Snell's side of the argument is too adversarial and divisive using the class warfare language of the day, running down the owners character and motives. This is not good faith negotiation on the part of the players, and has played a large role in where we are at today. 

Richie the Rally Goat St Paul Saints

Richie the Rally Goat

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted

 

17 have sold since 2000

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_principal_owners

18 if you count Montreal twice with the contraction shenanigans.

19! I forgot that Loria bought the Marlins in the aughts too... man that Jeff Loria what a wheeler and dealer. 12 mil initial investment into the Expos, sells to the league for 120 mil, then buys the Marlins for 158 mil (38 mil out of Pocket for hose keeping track) then sells the Marlins for 1.2 bil. 

 

46 mil investment, 1.15 bil gross profit over 18 year investment (1999 to 2017)

bighat Cedar Rapids Kernels

bighat

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

 

Not anymore than anyone else. Are you suggesting everyone everywhere take a pay cut? Did you voluntarily take a pay cut?

 

Comparing Joe Ballplayer salaries to those of Joe Everyman is apples to oranges. A 25% paycut for many of us would result in a drastic change in lifestyle. A paycut from 5 million to 3.5 million wouldn't likely have the same impact on a ballplayer.

 

Do I think ballplayers deserve to make millions? Certainly! I never once understood the argument and the hate for Joe Mauer from the Twins community in regards to his contract. They make what the market dictates. Fine by me, go nuts Mookie Betts, you deserve every dime you get.

 

Do I think that ballplayers could suck it up a little bit during this once-in-a-lifetime pandemic for the good of their game, brand, and the country? Also yes.

Trov Ft Myers Mighty Mussels

Trov

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

Just read MLB sent over offer of 60 games full prorated with expanded playoffs.  This to me is a big step by owners.  The 10 games extra from what was being talked about is a significant jump.  The main thing that players may balk at, but then will make them look bad in my opinion, is that the agreement requires waiver of any grievance by players.  

 

The players said set the schedule at full prorate after last deal.  However, rumors came up that unless the owners gave the numbers close to their offer of 87 games the players would file grievance, in part to force discovery of the revenue that was been of great debate.  This offer will not allow that.  However, if players say no, then they make it clear they wanted to file a grievance and were not serious of tell us when and where. 

 

This may get it done.  If players reject it, they cannot claim it is because of not full prorate, they can only claim because they want more games, aka more money for them.  Owners claim no matter the games they will lose money it is just how much.  I wish there was more games, but if players refuse this they will look terrible in the eyes of the fans.  They get full pay for play, just not as many games as they want to be paid for.  It 37% of what they would make in a full season, but that was not going to happen. 

 

The players will still grumble that this was a tactic to push the start back to where the owners could say time of season will only allow for 60 games now, but the players getting the full prorate pay.  Lets hope we see baseball in a month.  

yarnivek1972 Ft Myers Mighty Mussels

yarnivek1972

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

There’s not enough time to get many more than 60 games played by the end of September. And if they want expanded playoffs, they would likely want to start them even earlier.

 

If the deal was approved tomorrow, the earliest opening day could be is July 20.

jkcarew Cedar Rapids Kernels

jkcarew

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

70 games? I'm shocked. Suddenly the MLBPA willing to risk injury and illness by rushing back and/or playing later into the fall...all, for us fans! Shocked, I tell you.

yarnivek1972 Ft Myers Mighty Mussels

yarnivek1972

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

Another day. Another day with no agreement. Another day closer to September 30.

 

An agreement tomorrow would leave a 71 day window for regular season games to be played before September 30.

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