SS in the system, a quick look in

[DocBauer]

This is really about the prospects down in the system, though a couple are really close to making their MLB debut. Further, readiness proximity does have a future impact on the current team going forward, i.e. Polanco, what happens with Dozier, overall depth if an INF IS traded at some point this off season etc.

 

Not going to discuss Escobar or Adrianza, though I like both, as they aren't exactly prospects, but slightly older, good, quality ML utility players. Also not going to discuss Polanco to any degree except to say this: you have either followed his career closely, or you haven't. You have either watched him play a, mostly, surprisingly good SS this season with room for improvement with youth on his side and a potentially quality offensive game, or you have paid more attention to flaws and limitations and his mid season dovetail and decided you don't like him. Personally, whether he proves he can stick at SS or becomes an even better 2B, I like the kid and his potential.

 

SS has been a perpetual problem for the Twins since Guzman gave them a few nice seasons. Now, to be fair, there's been a couple seasons here and there with some solid play. But overall, it's been pretty bleak out there between 3B and 2B for some time now. And there is certainly a lot of conversation concerning the position, so I took a little time tonight to just take a look at some of the milb SS in the system to see how they are doing at this point.

 

Elgelb Vielma: We have all heard the reports about his glove work. A good month or so ago someone posted...quoting a scout/expert...that they believed Vielma was very similar to Omar Vizquel in his early days. Great defense, couldn't hit the Mendoza line, (with some potential), but that his glove could be worth it. Slightly built and no power but with some speed, it would only be fair to point out Vielma has hit .265 or better for 2014-2016 with an OB of .313 or higher. This year?

 

BA OB SLG OPS XBH R RBI SB

Rochester: .205/ .230/ .260/ .490/ 11-2-0/ 34/ 15/ 1-5

Chattanooga: .286/ .362/ .328/ .690/ 5-0-0/ 7/ 18/ 1-3

 

Nick Gordon: He's been a little down the second half of the season, but putting up impressive numbers overall after a quality 2016 and a great AFL. His errors are a concern, and there remains debate about his sticking at SS permanently. Personally, I discount a lot of infielders error numbers as they advance, develop and begin to play with better pkayers around them.

 

AVG OB SLG OPS XBH R RBI SB

Chattanooga: .279/ .353/ .422/ 775/ 28-8-8/ 75/ 63/ 13-7

 

Germaine Palacios: After a blistering start to his 2017 season at Cedar Rapids, he was promoted to Ft Myers where he has cooled somewhat, which is to be expected, but continues to put up quality numbers and flash potential.

 

AVG OB SLG OPS XBH R RBI SB

Ft Myers: .292/ .326/ .383/ .709/ 7-3-2/ 28/ 25/ 10-7

CedRap: .320/ .362/ .544/ .907/ 13-6-11/ 52/ 39/ 9-8

 

Royce Lewis: The top pick in the draft, the best HS position player in the draft, and some said the best position player period, has not disappointed. The debate, of course, is whether or not SS is his ultimate destination or somewhere else. But isn't that pretty standard for most prospects his age? (Of course, all numbers here are very SSS).

 

AVG OB SLG OPS XBH R RBI SB

CedRap: .349/ .356/ .442/ .797/ 1-0-1/ 8/ 10/ 2-1

GCL: .271/ .390/ .414/ .803/ 6-2-3/ 38/ 17/ 15-2

 

Wander Javier: Signed out of the Dominican Republic and only 18yo, I don't think direct comparisons to the also 18yo Lewis are entirely fair. I think coming from the D.R. to the good old USA to play ball and missing most of last season should be accounted for. And 18 is still 18. In fact, any comparison should only further enhance the ability and potential of Lewis, not diminish Javier. In fact, Javier began the season a rung higher than Lewis initially.

 

AVG OB SLG OPS XBH R RBI SB

Elizabethton: .326/ .417/ .504/ .920/ 13-1-3/ 31/ 18/ 4-2

 

To be fair, there are a couple of other names to consider in the low minors, Jose Miranda and Ricky De la Torre, both drafted from Puerto Rico, 2016 and 2017 respectively. Both were drafted as SS and both had favorable scouting reports, though it appears each has already spent time at other spots early in their careers. Miranda is at Elizabethton with Javier and De la Torre at the GCL.

 

AVG OB SLG OPS XBH R RBI SB

Miranda: .285/ .346/ .461/ .807/ 5-1-9/ 40/ 37/ 2-3

De la Torre: .258/ .338/ .356/ .694/ 2-1-3/ 21/ 12/ 5-5

 

Just thought it would be interesting and fun to take a look at the depth of the position that, just a season or two ago, looked pretty desolate and bleak. How good any of these youngsters become, or how far the advance, is still open for a lot of debate and waiting. But it's kind of hard not to be encouraged.

 

Thoughts? Debate on potential or rankings? Do we feel better about losing someone in a potential trade scenario? Who do you like best? The floor is open.

[diehardtwinsfan]

with the exception of Rochester, there's a good prospect at every level.

[goulik]

Palacios and Polanco made me more comfortable with the idea of trading Gordon for controllable starting pitching. Now with Lewis in the system, I could live with any ONE of them being included in a trade for top level controllable starting pitching.

 

Vielma remains a future Utility defensive replacement prospect. I'd guess he either replaces one of Escobar or Adrianza next year or he just remains a AAA infielder the remainder of his pro career.

[caninatl04]

As someone who has been following Vielma for a few years now, I am a little disappointed in his stalling out at AAA. Big drop off from AA.

 

It will be interesting to see who the every day SS at Rochester will be in 2018. Vielma or Gordon.

[rdehring]

Add one more name to the list, Luis Arraez. If I recall, he was hitting as well or better as any of them before his injury at the start of this year in Fort Myers as a 20 year old.

[SF Twins Fan]

I'd imagine next season all of the SS with move up a level with the exception of Vielma who will most likely shift from SS to 2B. This will allow Gordon to play SS everyday and the team to further evaluate him.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens in the offseason because the Twins probably won't keep Dozier, Polanco, Escobar and Adrianza on the ML roster.  Who do they keep and who do they move?

[Vanimal46]

Vielma is going to get passed over very quickly. He sounds too much like Pedro Florimon 2.0. I would hope Gordon starts next year in AAA as the every day SS. Lots of intriguing names in the lower levels too that will need to be promoted sooner than later. 

[biggentleben]

 

Add one more name to the list, Luis Arraez. If I recall, he was hitting as well or better as any of them before his injury at the start of this year in Fort Myers as a 20 year old.

 

Arraez is almost exclusively a second baseman at this point. He played 3 games at 2B this year before injury. He also had a very good season with Cedar Rapids in 2016, but he didn't play any time at all at shortstop, playing about 90% of his time at 2B.

[Dman]

I like all of those guys even Vielma who is having a down year with the stick.  Unfortunately I don't know if I have enough confidence in any of them to feel comfortable trading away Gordon.  Palacios is back but just one year removed from a terrible year at the plate.  Lewis is not a lock to stick at short and I like him better as a center fielder myself.  If he continues to do well at short my opinion could change. Wander seems solid but he is pretty far away as well.  With the exception of Vielma all of those guys look like they could have well rounded offensive upside, but they all seem to have questions when it comes to defense.  

 

If the Twins could get a decent return for Escobar or Dozier or both that would allow for us to have the years of control for Gordon or Palacios instead of trading that away.  Thing is the Twins are on the cusp of having a good team next year so I see them keeping both of those guys.  If they lose Dozier after 2018 then they have Gordon to slide in and he should definitely be ready by 2019 so I think they will keep Gordon.  Not sure how they plan to upgrade pitching but I don't see them trading Gordon to get it.

[Rosterman]

The Twins have the depth. Just who will hit when. Are they fast tracking Lewis and will he thrive and work with the coaches and the system? Will Gordon be ready? Palacios and Polanco. You suddenly have four guys for a couple (if not just one) position.

 

Will Vielma be jumped? Do you continue to protect him, after his 2017 season, on the 40-man? You also have Sean Miller, Brandon Lopez, Ariel Montesino in the system.

 

And the Twins just laid out BIG BUCKS for another shortstop prospect, Augestin Marte. Four BIG MONEY young prospects all trying for the same position and leaving a legacy in Minnesota. Can any switch to second? Or third? Or the outfield?

 

The questions? Do the Twins renew Dozier for 2-3 years (option included). Would Dozier move from second base and end up at 1st base or DH.

 

How long does Sano play third. One year? Three Years? Five Years? Is he the first baseman of the future when Mauer retires (Lewin Diaz and Zander Wiel are the only two significant prospects in the wings for 1B). Or is Sano made a permanent DH? It is ncie if he can play the field for those National League games.

 

Who is in the second base pipeline for the Twins? Levi Michael, now playing the outfield more and more and not just very good. Alex Perez? Ryan Walker? Luis Arrarz? Shane Kennedy?

 

Third base is pretty dead/ Maybe Blankenhorn will pull ahead of the pact and become the guy we need and want there. Otherwise, T.J. White, Nelson Molino, Joe Cronin. Chris Paul is looking promising and may be the underdog. Niko Goodrum...do you have him replace Vielam on the 40-man as a potential bench guy for the Twins.

 

Eventually the Twins have to make a decision on Brian Dozier. They also have to address the Joe Mauer issue. The guy is good, but at what price, and where can he play. Those are the two decisions the Twins face bigtime in the off-season. 

[DocBauer]

Personally, I really love Polanco and Gordon manning the middle of the infield, regardless who fits at which spot better.

 

Dozier could still stick around at 2B/1B/DH if re-signed, IMO.

[Thrylos]

Got to add Jelfry Marte, the newly signed 16 year old to the equation. 

SS is a position of glut at the Twins' system, and one that they should be able to use prospects in trades.

 

And one has to consider that the current Twins' starter at SS is just 23 years old. Javier might be his successor, so everyone else above that level should be in play (I am looking at Royce Lewis as a OF for sure...)

[gman]

Personally I have a hard time counting players at single A and below as surplus. Plenty of raw tools, but still mostly hope and hype. If you do trade one of those guys, your trade return won't match the hope you have for those players. Plus even a single A player is at least 2 years away which puts them at 2020 or later before they impact the major league team.

 

That said, by default they need to keep Gordon to play along side of Polanco in the middle infield. Even if they resign Dozier ( for at least a 3 year extension?), I don't see him maintaining his ability to play an average defensive second base for 3 or 4 more years. 

 

As far as pitching trades go, I think our AAA and AA rosters are going to be loaded with more pitching talent in 2018 then we've seen in a lot of years. Hopefully we won't see as many injuries next year.

[Mr. Brooks]

I agree with dman. Prospects should not even be a minor consideration when it comes to position depth chart until they reach AA, IMO.

[DocBauer]

Personally I have a hard time counting players at single A and below as surplus. Plenty of raw tools, but still mostly hope and hype. If you do trade one of those guys, your trade return won't match the hope you have for those players. Plus even a single A player is at least 2 years away which puts them at 2020 or later before they impact the major league team.

 

That said, by default they need to keep Gordon to play along side of Polanco in the middle infield. Even if they resign Dozier ( for at least a 3 year extension?), I don't see him maintaining his ability to play an average defensive second base for 3 or 4 more years.

 

As far as pitching trades go, I think our AAA and AA rosters are going to be loaded with more pitching talent in 2018 then we've seen in a lot of years. Hopefully we won't see as many injuries next year.

Totally understand and appreciate your thoughts and perspective. But this really was an overview of the system, and it's depth and perspective at this one position. But remember, everyone starts here initially before they become ML.

 

As to the rotation comment, even though thus is about SS, I also am intrigued and excited about the depth of pitching at AAA and AA next season. Let's say the Twins make a bug trade or quality FA signing, (I still prefer the FA route), and for fun, let's say they even sign Colon for 2018, (and there have been reports the Twins are interested in doing so), you have a rotation...initially at least...of FA, Santana, Berrios, Colon and Mejia. And there is no pressure, and depth, for Slegers, May, Gonsalvez, Romero, Jorge, etc. You now can bring them up when ready, Opportunity, etc.

[gman]

 

Totally understand and appreciate your thoughts and perspective. But this really was an overview of the system, and it's depth and perspective at this one position. But remember, everyone starts here initially before they become ML.

As to the rotation comment, even though thus is about SS, I also am intrigued and excited about the depth of pitching at AAA and AA next season. Let's say the Twins make a bug trade or quality FA signing, (I still prefer the FA route), and for fun, let's say they even sign Colon for 2018, (and there have been reports the Twins are interested in doing so), you have a rotation...initially at least...of FA, Santana, Berrios, Colon and Mejia. And there is no pressure, and depth, for Slegers, May, Gonsalvez, Romero, Jorge, etc. You now can bring them up when ready, Opportunity, etc.

I posted this quote to Warne "Warne Way to Early Post" and don't know why it got here.

[ashbury]

I posted this quote to Warne "Warne Way to Early Post" and don't know why it got here.

You mean this blog entry?

 http://twinsdaily.com/blog/536/entry-9051-warne-forming-a-way-too-early-twins-offseason-blueprint/

Normally I can move posts to other threads, but somehow I can't do that into a blog. I have asked Brock for admin assistance.