The short leash and rookies

[goulik]

I have been having a REAL hard time with Molitors short leash on rookie pitchers. When I heard Enns was getting the call I wondered if he would get 3 innings in. We saw this with Mejia (and others) but I just don't believe a rookie should be pulled after giving up 2 runs in their first MLB game. this more than anything else he does makes me question Molitor. Explain to me why I'm wrong...

[drjim]

Enns isn't good and Molitor wanted to win the game. Saved a lot of damage.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'm not sure what to think. With the Twins suddenly back in it, winning the game is a bit more important than developing the rookie. On the other hand, selling last month says the team wants to develop younger talent. You won't know what Enns has when you don't let him deal with a bad jam.

 

Biggest problem to the quick hook, in my opinion, is taxing a pen that isn't that good. It certainly was encouraging to see Busenitz succeed, and I'd like to see more of that, but asking the pen to go 6 innings last night doesn't bode well for tonight.

[amjgt]

I'm not sure what to think. With the Twins suddenly back in it, winning the game is a bit more important than developing the rookie. On the other hand, selling last month says the team wants to develop younger talent. You won't know what Enns has when you don't let him deal with a bad jam.

 

Biggest problem to the quick hook, in my opinion, is taxing a pen that isn't that good. It certainly was encouraging to see Busenitz succeed, and I'd like to see more of that, but asking the pen to go 6 innings last night doesn't bode well for tonight.

We didn't use our long man or any of our top 3 relief options. Bullpen will be fine tonight

[wsnydes]

 

Enns isn't good and Molitor wanted to win the game. Saved a lot of damage.

How do we know this after 50 pitches?  I don't care if he threw 50 perfectly placed strikes and struck out everyone he faced in 50 pitches, you can't tell anything from that small of a sample.  That's not fair or reasonable.

 

You may be right in the end, but one outing is hardly a way to determine the viability of an MLB starter.

[old nurse]

 

I have been having a REAL hard time with Molitors short leash on rookie pitchers. When I heard Enns was getting the call I wondered if he would get 3 innings in. We saw this with Mejia (and others) but I just don't believe a rookie should be pulled after giving up 2 runs in their first MLB game. this more than anything else he does makes me question Molitor. Explain to me why I'm wrong...

Bases loaded, the command and control pitcher can't find the strike zone and you want to win the game.  The short leash was created by the pitcher.  Gibson has been pulled early multiple times. How many of the call ups this year did the game get away?  Enough that the Twins are not in first place.

[Squirrel]

For his first cup of coffee, I'm okay with it. And as others said, the object was to win the game. Take no chances and stop the bleed before it's a gusher.

[Otto von Ballpark]

How do we know this after 50 pitches? I don't care if he threw 50 perfectly placed strikes and struck out everyone he faced in 50 pitches, you can't tell anything from that small of a sample. That's not fair or reasonable.

 

You may be right in the end, but one outing is hardly a way to determine the viability of an MLB starter.

He's not getting released, he is getting pulled from a game. Enns will have more opportunities to show he is better than the current scouting consensus. But in the meantime, we want to win games.

[wsnydes]

 

He's not getting released, he is getting pulled from a game. Enns will have more opportunities to show he is better than the current scouting consensus. But in the meantime, we want to win games.

Where did I insinuate that?  I simply asked how another poster could conclude that "Enns isn't good" after only 50 pitches.

 

I didn't agree with the quick hook, but I at least understand the logic.  I just don't see how anyone can determine the viability of a player after such a small sample.  That is what I was questioning.

[mikelink45]

We won, the second time through the lineup it was obvious that things had changed and I am fine with pulling him.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Where did I insinuate that? I simply asked how another poster could conclude that "Enns isn't good" after only 50 pitches.

 

I didn't agree with the quick hook, but I at least understand the logic. I just don't see how anyone can determine the viability of a player after such a small sample. That is what I was questioning.

You just did it again. Molitor isn't making any meaningful determination on Enns, he is just trying to win a single game. If Gardy had pinch hit for Kubel in that 2004 playoff game vs Rivera, it would have been because he was struggling and he wanted to win the game. You don't need to give players the biggest possible sample size every game.

[goulik]

I understand the "don't let the game get away" part but he had also only allowed 2 runs and only one of those earned (because of his own error,) but it's a pattern that does not let pitchers develop and taxes the bullpen. Comparing it to Gibson who is a veteran is apples and oranges. I guess Mejia has made it through and maybe it's the right approach (get the kids feet wet and pull him before he gets crushed) I just would have liked to see the manager express some faith in the young kid and see how he rebounds from giving up his first walk as a major leaguer. It's not like he walked the bases full...

[Brock Beauchamp]

I groaned when it happened but it wasn't a terrible decision. The Twins had that win nearly locked in if they get out of that inning.

 

And they did.

 

And it's not as if the bullpen has gotten much work lately. The win was more important than the starting pitcher. Enns will get another shot in five days.

[goulik]

You just did it again. Molitor isn't making any meaningful determination on Enns, he is just trying to win a single game. If Gardy had pinch hit for Kubel in that 2004 playoff game vs Rivera, it would have been because he was struggling and he wanted to win the game. You don't need to give players the biggest possible sample size every game.

He didn't do it again, he was responding to and quoted Drjim above...

[Otto von Ballpark]

He didn't do it again, he was responding to and quoted Drjim above...

He said "I just don't see how anyone can determine the viability of a player after such a small sample." That's not what Molitor was doing last night, he was trying to win a game. Enns' viability will be determined by his full body of work.

[goulik]

He said "I just don't see how anyone can determine the viability of a player after such a small sample." That's not what Molitor was doing last night, he was trying to win a game. Enns' viability will be determined by his full body of work.

Drjim Stated that Enns wasn't any good and Drjim was the one making the determination about viability... He is not sayin Molitor made that determination...

[wsnydes]

 

You just did it again. Molitor isn't making any meaningful determination on Enns, he is just trying to win a single game. If Gardy had pinch hit for Kubel in that 2004 playoff game vs Rivera, it would have been because he was struggling and he wanted to win the game. You don't need to give players the biggest possible sample size every game.

Please reread my initial post and the post I was quoting.  I never said anything about Molitor.  Another poster said "Enns isn't good".  That's what I'm questioning.  Not Molitor.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Did you all miss the near grand slam by Aguilar? Enns had enough evaluation opportunities for one night.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I will let drjim speak for himself, but his determination is not final either. It's probably based on the fact that Enns is a lightly regarded 26 year old making his MLB debut. Not every player deserves equal leash in their MLB debut, or any game for that matter.

[goulik]

Did you all miss the near grand slam by Aguilar? Enns had enough evaluation opportunities for one night.

Guess I missed that...

[drjim]

He's a slopballinhlg lefty who was in a massive jam going through the order a second time. What result would you expect keeping him in?

 

Enns may make it as a reliever, but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see him again in a Twins uniform. There's a reason he was the marginal 40 guy thrown into the trade.

[goulik]

I will let drjim speak for himself, but his determination is not final either. It's probably based on the fact that Enns is a lightly regarded 26 year old making his MLB debut. Not every player deserves equal leash in their MLB debut, or any game for that matter.

I can agree with this. It's just that it seems to be more of a pattern than merely situational but I'm just a guy sitting behind a screen judging from afar

[amjgt]

Bases loaded, the command and control pitcher can't find the strike zone and you want to win the game. The short leash was created by the pitcher. Gibson has been pulled early multiple times. How many of the call ups this year did the game get away? Enough that the Twins are not in first place.

The bases loaded walk was like a 9-pitch walk

[wsnydes]

 

I will let drjim speak for himself, but his determination is not final either. It's probably based on the fact that Enns is a lightly regarded 26 year old making his MLB debut. Not every player deserves equal leash in their MLB debut, or any game for that matter.

I don't disagree with any of this.  I was simply asking how a determination on his viability as a MLB pitcher could be made so quickly.  That is all.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I didn't even question the hook in my initial post, nor am I questioning it now.  I'm far from convinced he'll be any good, but I can't make that determination after 50 pitches.  My question didn't even really have anything to do with the game.  How we got to this line of thinking, I have no idea.

 

I would have preferred to see what the kid had in that jam, but I understand why he was pulled and I'm not grumbling at all about it.  Strategy-wise, it was probably the right move in order to win the game.

[Vanimal46]

On a macro-level, Molitor has improved this season giving rookies a longer leash. Specifically Polanco, whom he let him play out of a horrific slump. He's still a little hesitant about rookie pitchers, but not nearly as bad as last season when he toyed with Meyer and others. 

[Mike Sixel]

An individual decision can still be good, and also be part of a bad pattern/process. I don't know if this is or not, frankly. I think it's a harder call to make than it might seem. 

[wsnydes]

 

On a macro-level, Molitor has improved this season giving rookies a longer leash. Specifically Polanco, whom he let him play out of a horrific slump. He's still a little hesitant about rookie pitchers, but not nearly as bad as last season when he toyed with Meyer and others. 

I agree, but with what he did to Meyer there is only one direction to go at that point.

[drjim]

On a macro-level, Molitor has improved this season giving rookies a longer leash. Specifically Polanco, whom he let him play out of a horrific slump. He's still a little hesitant about rookie pitchers, but not nearly as bad as last season when he toyed with Meyer and others.

What does this even mean?

 

Do people think mlb teams handle pitchers making their debuts differently? Or that rookies should get some extra leash?

 

I really don't understand the attitude that when a young player doesn't come up and rip the majors right away he is being handled poorly. MLB baseball.is tough!

[Vanimal46]

 

What does this even mean?

Do people think mlb teams handle pitchers making their debuts differently? Or that rookies should get some extra leash?

I really don't understand the attitude that when a young player doesn't come up and rip the majors right away he is being handled poorly. MLB baseball.is tough!

 

In this specific instance with Enns, I don't have a problem with letting him off the hook early for his MLB debut. 

This season Molitor is giving rookie pitchers more of an opportunity to sink or swim compared to last year. Hildenberger for example is proving his case to be considered more often out of the pen. However, Molitor still prefers to use the same guys (Rogers, Belisle, Kintzler while he was here) more often than not. 

 

All I'm saying is he's improved from last year when, for example, Alex Meyer would get a quick hook after 3 innings, and not pitch again for a while. 

[drjim]

In this specific instance with Enns, I don't have a problem with letting him off the hook early for his MLB debut.

 

This season Molitor is giving rookie pitchers more of an opportunity to sink or swim compared to last year. Hildenberger for example is proving his case to be considered more often out of the pen. However, Molitor still prefers to use the same guys (Rogers, Belisle, Kintzler while he was here) more often than not.

 

All I'm saying is he's improved from last year when, for example, Alex Meyer would get a quick hook after 3 innings, and not pitch again for a while.

Well earned by Meyer last year.