Kyle Gibson: Haven't We Seen Enough?

Jerr · July 10, 2017

I've certainly seen enough of him. Usually he waits until the 4th inning to implode. He's useless.

Which sounds like the bullpen for Gibson, per my thinking.

Jerr · July 10, 2017

Just to repeat: there was one regular not in the starting lineup: Byron Buxton.

But, he is the best and has been hot and with the AS break? Hard to figure out........

yarnivek1972 · July 10, 2017

But, he is the best and has been hot and with the AS break? Hard to figure out........

Not that hard. They wanted to let Granite play. And his defense was just fine. Borderline spectacular.

Riverbrian · July 10, 2017

My Answer is: I've seen enough.

The Twins need to get very serious about moving below average performance off the roster because that's how you fix it. Gibson has been given enough time to be at least average and hasn't gotten it done. I'd move on.

However... I know there is a strong contingent of TD'ers who feel that we should just bring the kids up. I understand that sentiment but I am not part of that crowd.

I'm probably not going to cut Gibson until they are out of contention or a pitcher shows that he is an improvement over Gibson. I'll roll with Gibson's 6.00 until you know for sure you have a pitcher that will throw a 5.00... I'm not cutting Gibson just to throw Gonsalves out there in case Gonsalves looks like Berrios did last year and puts up an 9.00

If I had to choose between Gibson and Jorge... As long as we are in contention... It's Gibson right now.

In the off-season... it should get real interesting.

Will the Twins offer arbitration to Gibby?

Berrios and Mejia will be locks for 2018 if healthy.

Santiago I'm assuming will leave via Free Agency

May is doing the Tommy John dance... You can't assume he will be back by opening day.

Santana... Is possible trade bait.

If the Twins don't sign Gibson or Santiago... (I don't think they should) and if they trade Santana. They will have to find 3 quality major league arms that will match up with the improving offense and defense.

I know that some will immediately look to minor league options but you need them for depth. Romero, Jorge and Haley will be 40 man depth and I assume the Twins will have to add some starters to the 40 man. Gonsalves? Stewart?

That's about right for depth... You'll need around 10 arms to get through a season and keep the Nic Turley's away.

Does anyone think the Twins can go out and bring in 3 quality Major League Arms in a single off-season? I haven't seen them do anything like that before?

This makes me think that either Santana is going nowhere or Gibson will be offered Arb and given another chance.

Kwak · July 11, 2017

The Twins can non-tender Gibson yet compete in the free-agent market to sign him ( for less!).

70charger · July 11, 2017

I'm probably not going to cut Gibson until they are out of contention or a pitcher shows that he is an improvement over Gibson. I'll roll with Gibson's 6.00 until you know for sure you have a pitcher that will throw a 5.00... I'm not cutting Gibson just to throw Gonsalves out there in case Gonsalves looks like Berrios did last year and puts up an 9.00

That's not really a bad thought, but how do you know for sure until you actually give it a shot? Fernando Romero, for example, is known to have really good stuff and is on the 40 man. Gibson can be sent down via an option, so it's not like you're losing him for an irreversible experiment.

So what if Romero comes up and throws a couple of clunkers? Isn't it pretty safe to assume that you're likely to get a clunker out of Gibson these days too? His couple of passable starts he's had recently are well out of the norm compared to the rest of his year.

Kyle Gibson is a replacement player. I think - barring the necessity to do a bunch of 40-man jiu-jitsu - that replacing him with another guy who might be a replacement player just has no real downside. The worst-case is what you already have. The best case is better.

Riverbrian · July 11, 2017

That's not really a bad thought, but how do you know for sure until you actually give it a shot? Fernando Romero, for example, is known to have really good stuff and is on the 40 man. Gibson can be sent down via an option, so it's not like you're losing him for an irreversible experiment.

So what if Romero comes up and throws a couple of clunkers? Isn't it pretty safe to assume that you're likely to get a clunker out of Gibson these days too? His couple of passable starts he's had recently are well out of the norm compared to the rest of his year.

Kyle Gibson is a replacement player. I think - barring the necessity to do a bunch of 40-man jiu-jitsu - that replacing him with another guy who might be a replacement player just has no real downside. The worst-case is what you already have. The best case is better.

Oddly... this puts me in the position of having to defend Gibson.

I don't want to do that :mad:

Anyway... 7 out of his last 9 starts have given the team a chance to win.

I don't disagree that Gibson could be sent down. I'm just not ready to go untested unless necessary while in contention.

kab21 · July 11, 2017

That's not really a bad thought, but how do you know for sure until you actually give it a shot? Fernando Romero, for example, is known to have really good stuff and is on the 40 man. Gibson can be sent down via an option, so it's not like you're losing him for an irreversible experiment.

So what if Romero comes up and throws a couple of clunkers? Isn't it pretty safe to assume that you're likely to get a clunker out of Gibson these days too? His couple of passable starts he's had recently are well out of the norm compared to the rest of his year.

Kyle Gibson is a replacement player. I think - barring the necessity to do a bunch of 40-man jiu-jitsu - that replacing him with another guy who might be a replacement player just has no real downside. The worst-case is what you already have. The best case is better.

Gibson is the Twins #4. All of these pitchers that aren't getting a shot can be used as the 5th starter (like Jorge was).

I also think that people are getting ahead of themselves with how ready they think Romero, Gonsalves and Jorge are. They are good prospects and Romero has great stuff but they have between 15 and 23 AA games started. Promoting now is really risky and could lead to a loss of development time which is important for next season.

The additional problem with Romero is that I expect him to get shut down early or shift to the bullpen. I am hoping that he is brought up to the Twins bullpen.

And things can be worse than Gibson.

Richie the Rally Goat · July 11, 2017

That's not really a bad thought, but how do you know for sure until you actually give it a shot? Fernando Romero, for example, is known to have really good stuff and is on the 40 man. Gibson can be sent down via an option, so it's not like you're losing him for an irreversible experiment.

So what if Romero comes up and throws a couple of clunkers? Isn't it pretty safe to assume that you're likely to get a clunker out of Gibson these days too? His couple of passable starts he's had recently are well out of the norm compared to the rest of his year.

Kyle Gibson is a replacement player. I think - barring the necessity to do a bunch of 40-man jiu-jitsu - that replacing him with another guy who might be a replacement player just has no real downside. The worst-case is what you already have. The best case is better.

Romero won't be full season in the bigs next year. His most innings pitched has been 90 last year. Assume health that puts 120-130 at most this year. 140-150 next year.

diehardtwinsfan · July 11, 2017

My Answer is: I've seen enough.

The Twins need to get very serious about moving below average performance off the roster because that's how you fix it. Gibson has been given enough time to be at least average and hasn't gotten it done. I'd move on.

However... I know there is a strong contingent of TD'ers who feel that we should just bring the kids up. I understand that sentiment but I am not part of that crowd.

I'm probably not going to cut Gibson until they are out of contention or a pitcher shows that he is an improvement over Gibson. I'll roll with Gibson's 6.00 until you know for sure you have a pitcher that will throw a 5.00... I'm not cutting Gibson just to throw Gonsalves out there in case Gonsalves looks like Berrios did last year and puts up an 9.00

If I had to choose between Gibson and Jorge... As long as we are in contention... It's Gibson right now.

In the off-season... it should get real interesting.

Will the Twins offer arbitration to Gibby?

Berrios and Mejia will be locks for 2018 if healthy.

Santiago I'm assuming will leave via Free Agency

May is doing the Tommy John dance... You can't assume he will be back by opening day.

Santana... Is possible trade bait.

If the Twins don't sign Gibson or Santiago... (I don't think they should) and if they trade Santana. They will have to find 3 quality major league arms that will match up with the improving offense and defense.

I know that some will immediately look to minor league options but you need them for depth. Romero, Jorge and Haley will be 40 man depth and I assume the Twins will have to add some starters to the 40 man. Gonsalves? Stewart?

That's about right for depth... You'll need around 10 arms to get through a season and keep the Nic Turley's away.

Does anyone think the Twins can go out and bring in 3 quality Major League Arms in a single off-season? I haven't seen them do anything like that before?

This makes me think that either Santana is going nowhere or Gibson will be offered Arb and given another chance.

Very well said Brian, and this is a big reason why I'm not sure Santana gets traded. They have depth guys for 2018 in Gonsalves, Romero, and Jorge, but that doesn't stop the fact that they have two spots open. They can pencil May in for one, but that's a question mark at best, which means at least on FA for certain (assuming Santana stays)... That would leave them with 8 arms, and they would still have the AAAA types coming up.

Shaitan · July 11, 2017

Does anyone think the Twins can go out and bring in 3 quality Major League Arms in a single off-season? I haven't seen them do anything like that before?

This makes me think that either Santana is going nowhere or Gibson will be offered Arb and given another chance.

Once that I remember: Nolasco, Hughes, Santana.

Vanimal46 · July 11, 2017

This makes me think that either Santana is going nowhere or Gibson will be offered Arb and given another chance.

Sorry for cutting off your post. I concur 100% with you.

As far as the last sentence, I certainly hope it's the former, and not the latter.

He's been given 4 full seasons to prove his case that he's an average-ish pitcher. He's only done that in 1 season. It's time to let this experiment end.

gocgo · July 11, 2017

Brings up an interesting question...would you rather have Nolasco or Gibson?

kab21 · July 11, 2017

Gibson ain't coming back.

Sign one FA pitcher to a biggish contract (more than Santana).

FA

Santana

Berrios

Mejia

Hughes

Still a shaky rotation but it is progress. The part that is different from this year is that there are legitimately interesting AAA arms next year that will be ready to be promoted in Jorge, Romero and Gonsalves. May might be ready at some point but it usually takes 15-18 months to be back at full strength. He definitely won't be ready on opening day. But that is a 4th promising arm as plan B next season and beyond.

And for the record I am for trading for a pitcher like Gray and bumping each of those starters down a spot. Gray, FA, Santana and Berrios is a fairly decent rotation and I think makes the team competitive in the playoffs.

Vanimal46 · July 11, 2017

Gibson ain't coming back.

Sign one FA pitcher to a biggish contract (more than Santana).

FA
Santana
Berrios
Mejia
Hughes

Still a shaky rotation but it is progress. The part that is different from this year is that there are legitimately interesting AAA arms next year that will be ready to be promoted in Jorge, Romero and Gonsalves. May might be ready at some point but it usually takes 15-18 months to be back at full strength. He definitely won't be ready on opening day. But that is a 4th promising arm as plan B next season and beyond.

And for the record I am for trading for a pitcher like Gray and bumping each of those starters down a spot. Gray, FA, Santana and Berrios is a fairly decent rotation and I think makes the team competitive in the playoffs.

I agree with your projected rotation except Hughes as the #5. His arm looks toast. Even in the bullpen he's still throwing 88-91. DFA'ing him would be best, if the Pohlad's agree to eat the money left on his contract.

Nonetheless, they need a bigger-ish FA signing, and hopefully complete a trade this off-season for another MLB-caliber SP. I keep saying this in other threads, but Gordon would be a very nice feature piece in a trade to acquire a good to great SP.

yarnivek1972 · July 11, 2017

I'm curious to know who this "biggish" FA pitcher is. The list of available candidates isn't very long. It's Arrietta - who has not been good this year and a bunch of hopes and dreams IMO.

Vanimal46 · July 11, 2017

I'm curious to know who this "biggish" FA pitcher is. The list of available candidates isn't very long. It's Arrietta - who has not been good this year and a bunch of hopes and dreams IMO.

You're right, the list isn't pretty... If Cueto opts-out, I may take a stab at him bouncing back.

Otherwise from this list, I like how Cashner bounced back this season and just hitting his early 30's. Matt Garza could still be a mid-rotation SP, better than Santiago and Gibson. Hellickson wouldn't be bad either. I'm assuming Darvish is resigned by the Rangers since word on sports talk radio down here is the Rangers have no desire to trade him.

kab21 · July 11, 2017

I agree with your projected rotation except Hughes as the #5. His arm looks toast. Even in the bullpen he's still throwing 88-91. DFA'ing him would be best, if the Pohlad's agree to eat the money left on his contract.

Nonetheless, they need a bigger-ish FA signing, and hopefully complete a trade this off-season for another MLB-caliber SP. I keep saying this in other threads, but Gordon would be a very nice feature piece in a trade to acquire a good to great SP.

Hughes is there until he is cut. If not him then it will be a backend type.

I'm curious to know who this "biggish" FA pitcher is. The list of available candidates isn't very long. It's Arrietta - who has not been good this year and a bunch of hopes and dreams IMO.

Darvish, Cueto and Lance Lynn beg to differ. It won't be easy (or cheap) or possibly a good idea long term but I am not concerned about Pohlad's bank account. Get some pitching.

yarnivek1972 · July 11, 2017

Hughes is there until he is cut. If not him then it will be a backend type.

Darvish, Cueto and Lance Lynn beg to differ. It won't be easy (or cheap) or possibly a good idea long term but I am not concerned about Pohlad's bank account. Get some pitching.

Cueto is having an off year. That's 2 of the last 3. He'd have to be nuts to walk away from $ 84 mil guaranteed. Better question: would you really offer him that much at this point in his career?

Lynn has a FIP of 5.19. Darvish OK. But the season is far from over. As bad as the Rangers pitching has been for the last twenty years, they would be pretty dumb to let him walk.

Mike Sixel · July 11, 2017

Hughes is there until he is cut. If not him then it will be a backend type.

Darvish, Cueto and Lance Lynn beg to differ. It won't be easy (or cheap) or possibly a good idea long term but I am not concerned about Pohlad's bank account. Get some pitching.

If there are 3 good FA starters, what are the odds the Twins sign one, over the other 29 teams? Probably pretty low, I'd think.

Mike Sixel · July 11, 2017

Cueto is having an off year. That's 2 of the last 3. He'd have to be nuts to walk away from $ 84 mil guaranteed. Better question: would you really offer him that much at this point in his career?

Lynn has a FIP of 5.19. Darvish OK. But the season is far from over. As bad as the Rangers pitching has been for the last twenty years, they would be pretty dumb to let him walk.

The Rangers will try to keep Darvish (and others) around, because they want to pursue Otani, and want the best team they can have, to encourage him (that's what I've read on several internet articles recently).

Mr. Brooks · July 11, 2017

The move to the bullpen for Hughes is permanent, IMO.

I don't think he starts another game in his career.

yarnivek1972 · July 11, 2017

The move to the bullpen for Hughes is permanent, IMO.
I don't think he starts another game in his career.

I bet he gets a shot at some point. $ 13 mil is an awful lot to pay a mop up reliever for the next two years. The Twins will try him as a starter at some point I think. Possibly to start next season.

Vanimal46 · July 11, 2017

I bet he gets a shot at some point. $ 13 mil is an awful lot to pay a mop up reliever for the next two years. The Twins will try him as a starter at some point I think. Possibly to start next season.

I hope Falvine can convince Pohlad to pay $13 MM for him not to be on the team anymore.

yarnivek1972 · July 11, 2017

I hope Falvine can convince Pohlad to pay $13 MM for him not to be on the team anymore.

One can dream. I consider it highly unlikely.

Linus · July 11, 2017

Brings up an interesting question...would you rather have Nolasco or Gibson?

Neither. We don't have to accept poor performance.

Twodogs · July 11, 2017

I think for sure Santana has to stay for next year. If the Twins trade for Gray, who do they send over to them?? Gordon?? You could send them Gibson along with a Gordon type, but it has to be a pretty big prospect to get Gray. If they get Gray then a guy like Hellickson would be a good signing. Then you would have

Gray

Berrios

Santana

Hellickson

Mejia as your first 5.

It would drop Santana to a #3 starter which is about where he belongs. You will have May coming back at some point I'd say more likely Juneish or early July and it will still take him some time to build up, look at some guys like Wheeler and Baily from Cin. It takes awhile to get back to full force after that kind of stuff. Then another year or two and Santana and Gray are gone and god only hopes that by then the guys like Gonsalves and Romero are ready by then. Duffy is not going to make it. He fooled people for a portion of a year 3 seasons ago and he fooled people for a portion of this year. Obviously, people can figure him out after awhile. So I am pretty sure there is no chance that Duffy can be a rotation fixture. Then the bullpen needs to be dealt with, hopefully the injured guys in the minors get fixed and there can be some in house options for the bull pen. Like back when JC Romero, and Juan Rincon came up to help guys like Hawkins and Guardado. Bet on the youngsters to help the bull pen and get some starters. JMO

yarnivek1972 · July 11, 2017

Neither. We don't have to accept poor performance.

Meaning what exactly? You have to accept the performance of the players on the roster. Sandy Koufax ain't coming through the clubhouse door.

yarnivek1972 · July 11, 2017

I think for sure Santana has to stay for next year. If the Twins trade for Gray, who do they send over to them?? Gordon?? You could send them Gibson along with a Gordon type, but it has to be a pretty big prospect to get Gray. If they get Gray then a guy like Hellickson would be a good signing. Then you would have
Gray
Berrios
Santana
Hellickson
Mejia as your first 5.

It would drop Santana to a #3 starter which is about where he belongs. You will have May coming back at some point I'd say more likely Juneish or early July and it will still take him some time to build up, look at some guys like Wheeler and Baily from Cin. It takes awhile to get back to full force after that kind of stuff. Then another year or two and Santana and Gray are gone and god only hopes that by then the guys like Gonsalves and Romero are ready by then. Duffy is not going to make it. He fooled people for a portion of a year 3 seasons ago and he fooled people for a portion of this year. Obviously, people can figure him out after awhile. So I am pretty sure there is no chance that Duffy can be a rotation fixture. Then the bullpen needs to be dealt with, hopefully the injured guys in the minors get fixed and there can be some in house options for the bull pen. Like back when JC Romero, and Juan Rincon came up to help guys like Hawkins and Guardado. Bet on the youngsters to help the bull pen and get some starters. JMO

Adding Gibson to a package doesn't increase it's value.

Riverbrian · July 11, 2017

Once that I remember: Nolasco, Hughes, Santana.

Ricky Nolasco and Phil Hughes were the same year 13-14 Off Season.

Santana was the following year.

The other thing to consider... If the Twins need to find 3 MLB Quality arms in one off season. Almost every team in the majors will be looking for one or two as well. Supply and Demand is going to be prohibitive.

Because of this... I just don't see the Twins trading Santana and rolling out the kids out and I think it increases the possibility that Gibson will be brought back.

I'd non-tender Gibby at the end of the year but the best solution in Falvine's eyes may be to bring him back and ... FIX HIM!!!!

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