Twins option Mejia to AAA, put Haley on DL

[drjim]

Today another source said Vargas and Boshers. Then I looked at their stats and wondered why. It would seem to me that Palka is showing a lot more plate discipline at this point and Vargas does not seem to be gaining traction in AAA. The article said Bosher has not had many innings and is =7 era does not seem to indicate that he should get them. Explain the "new" thinking of the FO and management? Please. Seth had a really good article with lots of options, but this seems to be another questionable move.

Maybe making moves not based on stats from a handful of games does represent new thinking.

[drjim]

Don't worry, they won't have thirteen pitchers for long. Don't worry, the bullpen won't be old guys with no future for long. Don't worry, this is temporary..... Pretty sure I've been reading this for four plus years now.

You probably need a new hobby. With the standard you've set these concerns will never go away.

[drjim]

We're 17 games into new management where they have few/no good options at their disposal.

 

Again, if we're still whining about these situations into June, then I'll start to become annoyed.

 

But I'm not going to crucify the front office for not throwing a young pitcher into the MLB bullpen after 1.2 innings of minor league ball. Hell, lots of teams don't do that to 30 year old veterans after an injury.

We might still be whining if none of the young guys in the minors stay healthy or perform.

[Jham]

Haley's got a fake injury right?  Biceps tendinitis?  After 2 weeks?  Who's next to come up with something that will delay having to make a final decision on them?  I'll put $5 on Tonkin...  and for 4/1 odds I'll say it's forearm tightness.

[drjim]

Haley's got a fake injury right? Biceps tendinitis? After 2 weeks? Who's next to come up with something that will delay having to make a final decision on them? I'll put $5 on Tonkin... and for 4/1 odds I'll say it's forearm tightness.

That was my thought too, fake injury to allow another bat while still keeping the pitching depth.

 

I would imagine Boshers isn't long for the 25 man, especially since he has an option. Just up to eat some low leverage innings if needed.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Idk if any team can survive having to back up starters 2-5. This season wasn't going to be enjoyable in terms of starting pitching. The way I viewed it was if I'm going to watch starting pitching struggle I would rather it be young guys with upside.

Sure, me too, but going with "young arms" simply doesn't work if you only have two guys you can promote to MLB.

 

And I suspect that both of those guys will be in the rotation by the end of May or early June (given Hughes and Gibson, I think Mejia will be back in relatively short order).

 

After that, the Twins' young arm depth is... *crickets*

 

Literally nobody else behind them showing any kind of sign they'll be ready before the second half of the season. Gonsalves hasn't pitched. Stewart is struggling. Romero has barely gotten his feet wet in AA.

 

It's easy to say "I want to watch young arms" but one must first have young arms to accomplish that goal. The Twins did not and do not have those arms in sufficient quantity to field even half of an MLB rotation.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Sure, me too, but going with "young arms" simply doesn't work if you only have two guys you can promote to MLB.

 

And I suspect that both of those guys will be in the rotation by the end of May or early June (given Hughes and Gibson, I think Mejia will be back in relatively short order).

 

After that, the Twins' young arm depth is... *crickets*

 

Literally nobody else behind them showing any kind of sign they'll be ready before the second half of the season. Gonsalves hasn't pitched. Stewart is struggling. Romero has barely gotten his feet wet in AA.

 

It's easy to say "I want to watch young arms" but one must first have young arms to accomplish that goal. The Twins did not and do not have those arms in sufficient quantity to field even half of an MLB rotation.

Berrios, Duffey, Mejia, and May are young arms. 

 

They can't back up an entire rotation. I wanted to see those guys get that first shot rather than Santiago. That wasn't going to happen given the ways the Twins have operated.  

 

I think its easy to look at his 3 game start and May's season ending UCL tear now and say "yep definitely the right call," but before that Santiago was another mediocre at best veteran who was coming off a terrible season. You know he was locking down a rotation spot and we've seen how reluctant the Twins can be to move on veteran mediocrity.

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Berrios, Duffey, Mejia, and May are young arms.

 

They can't back up an entire rotation. I wanted to see those guys get that first shot rather than Santiago. That wasn't going to happen given the ways the Twins have operated.

 

I think its easy to look at his 3 game start and May's season ending UCL tear now and say "yep definitely the right call," but before that Santiago was another mediocre at best veteran who was coming off a terrible season. You know he was locking down a rotation spot and we've seen how reluctant the Twins can be to move on veteran mediocrity.

It was an easy call then, too, and my argument hasn't changed a bit in six months.

 

Guys get injured. Guys underperform. When a team has as many shaky arms as the Twins do, quantity is the only way to hope to weather the storm.

 

Remember, we're still a week from it being MAY. This clownshoe rotation couldn't even make it a month.

[yarnivek1972]

Why do I keep seeing people saying 40-man implications for Adrianza? He's on the 40.

He's out of options. So after his rehab is over (there are actually rules about the maximum time it can last) the Twins will have to either activate him to the 25 man roster or DFA him. If they activate him, they pretty much have to DFA Danny Santana because having Santzna, Adrianza AND Escobar on your bench would be stilupid.

 

Edit. Wow. Sorry about my typing skills tonight.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Something's got to give soon in the rotation. Gibson can't be counted on to start in MLB. Send him to AAA and hope he can get on track. Berrios takes his spot. Try Duffy in the Mejia spot (or vice versa with Duffy and Berrrios) and hope Mejia can come back up in a couple of weeks. Roll with Hughes for now because there isn't anyone else.

 

let's use the days off Thursday the 27th and Monday the 1st. Either:

 

1) Call up Berrios now, pitch him tomorrow or Tuesday and send down Gibson. 4 man rotation - Santana, Santiago, Berrios, Hughes.

2) Put Duffy into the rotation, also tomorrow or Tuesday. 4 man rotation - Santana, Santiago, Hughes, Duffy.

3) Do both. 5 man trotation - Santana, Santiago, Berrios, Hughes, Duffy.

 

Number 3 is my choice. Gibson and Mejia are the AAA depth with maybe Tepesch if desperate. Use the next 2-3 turns to see if Berrios and Duffy can stay in the rotation.

 

But whatever we do, GET GIBSON DOWN TO AAA. HE'S HURTING THE TEAM.

Duffey has been their best reliever and they're short the long man.

 

I would swap Gibson and Duffy using Gibby as the long man, staying with 4 starters for the next 10 days. Bring up Berrios to replace Mejia

[Otto von Ballpark]

Why in the world would they use off days to get MORE starts from Gibson and Hughes right now?

[KirbyDome89]

 

It was an easy call then, too, and my argument hasn't changed a bit in six months.

Guys get injured. Guys underperform. When a team has as many shaky arms as the Twins do, quantity is the only way to hope to weather the storm.

Remember, we're still a week from it being MAY. This clownshoe rotation couldn't even make it a month.

Agreed the rotation is a joke. 

 

I'm fine with having depth, I just wanted the mediocre veterans to provide that role when/if the younger pitchers were injured/ineffective. We knew Santiago wasn't going to fill that role. So far it has looked good but like you said it isn't even May yet. 

[kab21]

 

Agreed the rotation is a joke. 

 

I'm fine with having depth, I just wanted the mediocre veterans to provide that role when/if the younger pitchers were injured/ineffective. We knew Santiago wasn't going to fill that role. So far it has looked good but like you said it isn't even May yet. 

Perhaps we aren't on the same page with the word mediocre but you won't get a veteran with Santiago's ability to be 6th-8th available starters stashed in AAA. They either need to be in the rotation or they aren't on the team.

Every year there are many complaints that prospects will be blocked but every year any starting pitching prospect that is worth anything gets numerous chances in the majors. It might not happen on the day that everyone wants but it does happen. 

[TheLeviathan]

We're in a crisis right now and we aren't even to the inevitable point at which we replace Hughes and his 48 mph fastball.....

 

This is going to get ugly.

[drjim]

Gibson being so terrible really set back the staff. If he was even medicore they could probably scratch out a competitive rotation, cycling through the young guys until one or two clicked, riding a hot hand, and perhaps even hoping for a AA guy to put it together.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Perhaps we aren't on the same page with the word mediocre but you won't get a veteran with Santiago's ability to be 6th-8th available starters stashed in AAA. They either need to be in the rotation or they aren't on the team.

Every year there are many complaints that prospects will be blocked but every year any starting pitching prospect that is worth anything gets numerous chances in the majors. It might not happen on the day that everyone wants but it does happen. 

After last season I think mediocre is being generous...

 

No he wouldn't be that 7-8th guy which was exactly the point. 

 

Yeah they get chances, but it is always after a veteran has burned out after an excessively long stint. It would be nice at this point if watching middling veterans play was plan B.   

[drjim]

Twins are still going to win in low to mid 70s. People are really freaking out about a bad week.

 

They'll hit better. Mejia and Berrios will have some moments. They'll just have some ugly stretches from time to time.

[kab21]

 

After last season I think mediocre is being generous...

 

No he wouldn't be that 7-8th guy which was exactly the point. 

 

Yeah they get chances, but it is always after a veteran has burned out after an excessively long stint. It would be nice at this point if watching middling veterans play was plan B.   

3.5 seasons of <4.00 ERA and you judge him by one season? Really?

Nobody that has truly earned a place in the majors has been blocked from getting numerous chances during the MLB season. Sometimes there are stupid considerations like service time or other issues but the Twins staff has always had plenty of in season openings and a general lack of prospects to take advantage of those openings. Having a veteran like Santiago that get through a game is not a bad thing. Other veterans (like the final go around of Blackburn or Nolasco) never had much hope and I also complained about them in the rotation. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

3.5 seasons of <4.00 ERA and you judge him by one season? Really?

Nobody that has truly earned a place in the majors has been blocked from getting numerous chances during the MLB season. Sometimes there are stupid considerations like service time or other issues but the Twins staff has always had plenty of in season openings and a general lack of prospects to take advantage of those openings. Having a veteran like Santiago that get through a game is not a bad thing. Other veterans (like the final go around of Blackburn or Nolasco) never had much hope and I also complained about them in the rotation. 

You mean that same guy whose ERA didn't reflect how he outperformed average to below average peripheral stats all those years? 

 

Earn a spot? Please, show me where Santiago earned a spot in the with the Twins. If "earning," a spot was a criteria for this year's staff nobody beside Santana would have been back...

 

I said I didn't like the move during the offseason because there were a handful of younger players I would have rather seen have the first shot at the rotation. You knew he was locking a rotation spot up for better or worse when he signed and we've watched how patient (content perhaps?) this organization is with mediocre vets. 

 

Yes he has been good for 3 games, and yes, the calendar still says April...

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Every year there are many complaints that prospects will be blocked but every year any starting pitching prospect that is worth anything gets numerous chances in the majors. It might not happen on the day that everyone wants but it does happen. 

 

This.  We tend to forget just how depth teams needs for SP.  I was ready to cut Santiago loose this offseason and couldn't have been more wrong.  Between May's injury and the Mejia/Gibson implosion, this team needs starters.  I don't think Hughes is that far behind either.  How soon can we get Duffey and Berrios in the rotation, b/c I have to think that will happen.

[kab21]

 

You mean that same guy whose ERA didn't reflect how he outperformed average to below average peripheral stats all those years? 

 

Earn a spot? Please, show me where Santiago earned a spot in the with the Twins. If "earning," a spot was a criteria for this year's staff nobody beside Santana would have been back...

 

I said I didn't like the move during the offseason because there were a handful of younger players I would have rather seen have the first shot at the rotation. You knew he was locking a rotation spot up for better or worse when he signed and we've watched how patient (content perhaps?) this organization is with mediocre vets. 

 

Yes he has been good for 3 games, and yes, the calendar still says April...

Nobody is judging Santiago by 3 good games in April. They are judging him by 739 innings of 3.79 ERA pitching.

Looking at peripherals is great but it has been well established that there are some guys that can outperform/underperform various all in one stats just like batters can outperform/underperform BAPIP.  At some point the sample size becomes large enough to suggest that he can outperform his FIP/xFIP by a fair margin.

[Linus]

Given our rotation I think we should be overjoyed with Santiago.

[Twinsoholic]

Tepesch to be promoted by Twins. Ugh. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Tepesch isn't so bad if he's being promoted to take Haley's place as a bullpen long man. I think that's all it is. 

 

Is that like being sure DanSan won't play much, or the bullpen will be turned over quickly?

[yarnivek1972]

 

3.5 seasons of <4.00 ERA and you judge him by one season? Really?

Nobody that has truly earned a place in the majors has been blocked from getting numerous chances during the MLB season. Sometimes there are stupid considerations like service time or other issues but the Twins staff has always had plenty of in season openings and a general lack of prospects to take advantage of those openings. Having a veteran like Santiago that get through a game is not a bad thing. Other veterans (like the final go around of Blackburn or Nolasco) never had much hope and I also complained about them in the rotation. 

 

 

How about judging him by the last 9 1/2 months, dating back to the All Star Break of 2015?  That's roughly 40-45 starts and I would peg his ERA in those games at about 5.5 without actually doing the math.

[kab21]

 

How about judging him by the last 9 1/2 months, dating back to the All Star Break of 2015?  That's roughly 40-45 starts and I would peg his ERA in those games at about 5.5 without actually doing the math.

Bravo on picking arbitrary sample sizes to make an argument.

Nobody should be mistaking Santiago with greatness but he has a history of being a reliable starter. I will take my chances with him far before I bring in the next version of Albers, Pino or Jason Miller. You could pick any of the AAAA starters that have gotten chances every season with the Twins from the last decade.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Bravo on picking arbitrary sample sizes to make an argument.

 

Nobody should be mistaking Santiago with greatness but he has a history of being a reliable starter. I will take my chances with him far before I bring in the next version of Albers, Pino or Jason Miller. You could pick any of the AAAA starters that have gotten chances every season with the Twins from the last decade.

Yep. Santiago is mediocre.

 

But mediocrity isn't something you just find on the waiver wire. Unless you luck out, the pickings on the waiver wire are much worse than that.

[drjim]

 

Is that like being sure DanSan won't play much, or the bullpen will be turned over quickly?

 

Nope.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Nobody is judging Santiago by 3 good games in April. They are judging him by 739 innings of 3.79 ERA pitching.

Looking at peripherals is great but it has been well established that there are some guys that can outperform/underperform various all in one stats just like batters can outperform/underperform BAPIP.  At some point the sample size becomes large enough to suggest that he can outperform his FIP/xFIP by a fair margin.

Call me bullish but I'm a believer that as the sample size continues to grow we'll see a reduction in "random error," (Idk if its actually fair to call it that) and the gap between ERA and FIP will shrink. Last season with the Twins was the closest those two came to matching. I don't think it was some crazy hot take to favor Mejia or Berrios to start the season over a guy who appeared to be pitching as predicted. 

 

Who knows, maybe he is just that magic dude who can continue to survive giving up home runs and by sneaking out of situations with runners on base. If not, hopefully it lasts until the end of July...

[yarnivek1972]

Bravo on picking arbitrary sample sizes to make an argument.

 

Nobody should be mistaking Santiago with greatness but he has a history of being a reliable starter. I will take my chances with him far before I bring in the next version of Albers, Pino or Jason Miller. You could pick any of the AAAA starters that have gotten chances every season with the Twins from the last decade.

Little bit of an oops on my part. I thought this was about Gibson.