Article: Twins Trade Francisco Liriano To White Sox

[Brock Beauchamp]

Unfortunately, having looked at his batted ball profile, he doesn't have the magic sink that Diamond does.

Sigh. Well, I'm not going to rail on the trade too hard. I was wrong about the Diamond trade and so was 95% of the rest of the fan base (most of the other 5% consisted of dyed-in-the-wool homers). We all need to eat a few platefuls of crow for that trade.

 

With that said, I still don't like it. But I'll reserve a small portion of my hatred of the trade to admit that we don't know much about these players and there could be something there we don't see on a stat sheet.

[snepp]

Sigh. Well, I'm not going to rail on the trade too hard. I was wrong about the Diamond trade and so was 95% of the rest of the fan base (most of the other 5% consisted of dyed-in-the-wool homers). We all need to eat a few platefuls of crow for that trade.

 

With that said, I still don't like it. But I'll reserve a small portion of my hatred of the trade to admit that we don't know much about these players and there could be something there we don't see on a stat sheet.

You can count me in on the 95%.

 

It's not so much that I hate this trade, it's just that there doesn't appear to be anything to like about it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You can count me in on the 95%.

 

It's not so much that I hate this trade, it's just that there doesn't appear to be anything to like about it.

Exactly. It seems to be the opposite of risk. The Twins get a soft-tosser and a no-OBP middle infielder.

 

Isn't the Twins system chock-full of both of those things already?

[killebrew]

Exactly this.

No, because nobody expected a ton of talent in return.

 

There are two tradeoffs in the prospect package matrix. The first is proximity vs upside, the second is quantity vs quality. Ryan failed on both counts. The Twins are in a position right now where adding a couple of guys who will be nothing more than be modestly useful in the next couple of years gets them nowhere.

 

The only way to significantly improve the team through a Liriano trade would have been to accept some risk while exercising some patience.

 

They weren't going to get a sandwich pick for him, but I think they could have landed an A-ball pitcher with a 20% chance of being a #3 some day - which is about what a sandwich pick is worth. That's a better deal for this team.

[Rosterman]

You guys crack me up. Is there ever going to be any situation that will make you happy?

 

The Twins decided Liriano was not going to be back next year and they weren't going to offer him the qualifying offer, so they made the best deal they felt they could. Who cares where he went this year. The Twins are not going to win the division this year. If they kept him through this year, he could still go to the White Sox (see Jesse Crain). They could trade him somewhere else and he could still end up in the division (see AJ Pierzynski).

 

You guys all called for Liriano to be dumped after the horrible start, sat around waiting for the other shoe to drop while he was pitching well, and now that he's traded, complain we didn't get enough for him. You are already complaining about the 40 man roster for next year?

 

Everybody needs to look at the reality of the situation and chill out. We got a utility infielder and middle reliever, both young and under team control. You were expecting Miguel Cabrera?

 

Well. Pedro could turn into the current equivalent of Frankie. Is that so bad?

 

The question is that by getting two AAA guys, do the Twins basically pass on Florimon and Bromberg, as two examples, to add on the 40-man roster. Equivalent players from your own system...well, maybe a tad older.

 

Yes, looking at this addition, I can see Pedro coming p in September and being given every chance next year to be in the rotation. Does Escobar basically replace Alexi. But what is the upside there...fielding? speed? OBP? youth? He has two years to stay with the Twins.

 

Again, worrying about the 40-man. It will be interesting to see who doesn't make, becomes minors free agents and all.

[Rosterman]

Too bad we couldn't have packaged Toshi with Liriano, and offered to take Crain back!

[jorgenswest]

Exactly. It seems to be the opposite of risk. The Twins get a soft-tosser and a no-OBP middle infielder.

 

Isn't the Twins system chock-full of both of those things already?

I don't think the Twins have anyone in their system with the ability to defend at SS to match Escobar's reports. BBA listed Dozier as the best defensive IF in their handbook. We are not even sure if he is a SS. Jorge Polanco has had some good reports off his defense but he is a long way for the majors. Florimon seems similar. The rap on him coming in according to Sickels was his trouble with the routine plays. In any case, the system is pretty void of guys who can defend at SS.

[DaveW]

Well. Pedro could turn into the current equivalent of Frankie. Is that so bad?

 

The question is that by getting two AAA guys, do the Twins basically pass on Florimon and Bromberg, as two examples, to add on the 40-man roster. Equivalent players from your own system...well, maybe a tad older.

 

Yes, looking at this addition, I can see Pedro coming p in September and being given every chance next year to be in the rotation. Does Escobar basically replace Alexi. But what is the upside there...fielding? speed? OBP? youth? He has two years to stay with the Twins.

 

Again, worrying about the 40-man. It will be interesting to see who doesn't make, becomes minors free agents and all.

Escobar may be nothing special, but he is a significantly better prospect then Florimon, anyone who says Florimon is a better option then Escobar is flat out wrong.

 

The Twins have plenty of garbage on the 40 man, they shouldn't have to worry about making room.

[DaveW]

Also looking at Hernandez we are forgetting two things:

1. we have the latino pitcher whisperer still on the roster.

2. His strike out rate isn't amazing, but it isn't as awful as many are making it out to be. Last year he had 9.4 k/9 in AA and 7.3 k/9 total for 2011. This year his k rate dipped quite a bit in AA but his ERA also was respectable 2.75, and I know this is short sample size to the max, but he does have 17 strike outs in 18 innings at AAA this year. He is still relatively young at 23 and apparently is trying to figure out his curve ball, if the Twins can help him with his third pitch is it unreasonable to think he couldn't at post a 7 k/9 rate in the majors? He isn't a strike out machine, but he isn't exactly Pavano/Blackburn at this point either.

[snepp]

Yes, I think it's unreasonable to expect him to maintain the same strikeout rate in the majors that he had in the minors.

[jorgenswest]

Hernandez - Do we have many 23 year old pitchers in this system who have made it to AAA and performed reasonably well throughout? The only guy I can think of is Hendriks. It looks like he profiles minimally as a reliever who can be more than a LOOGY. These guys have value.

[greengoblinrulz]

What BA list are you looking at? Is there another one? I don't see him here:

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/rankings/organization-top-10-prospects/2012/2612801.html

Ive got the actual handbook.....guess the website could be different.

Noticed on some websites that as soon as the player loses rookie status, they are taken off the prospcts list.

 

Simon Castro at #3 was acquired with Hernandez in the CQuentin deal & wasnt w/Sox yet in the book....so that probably knocked Escobar down to 11th. Casto was 14th for SD but 3rd for CHI, showing how lacking the Sox system was as BA had SOX ranked last & SD 8th(again in the book).

[strumdatjag]

Twins are setting up a battle for middle infield positions next year in spring training: between Dozier (SS is his job to lose, but he'll be on a short leash), Casilla (maybe pronounced Kah-See Ya Later), Jamie Carroll (if he's still around - may be traded), believe it or not - Nishioka, maybe Florimon and who knows.

[DaveW]

Yes, I think it's unreasonable to expect him to maintain the same strikeout rate in the majors that he had in the minors.

Yeah, he'd have to improve that third pitch, which the Twins have had some success with in the past. Even if his k rate drops you can sometimes live with a 6 k/9 rate. It's when you start dropping below that when you begin to approach Blackburn/Pavanoness territory.

[FrodaddyG]

It's when you start dropping below that when you begin to approach Blackburn/Pavanoness territory.

The way he did in his (larger than AAA) AA sample size this year?

[DPJ]

Jeez, you go camping and come back to this bull****.

 

I can't add anything that already hasn't been said, so I'll keep it simple. THE TWINS FRONT OFFICE IS FULL OF MORONS.

[Dilligaf69]

Jeez, you go camping and come back to this bull****.

 

I can't add anything that already hasn't been said, so I'll keep it simple. THE TWINS FRONT OFFICE IS FULL OF MORONS.

 

Send in a resume....

[Guest USAFChief]

Just another example of talent drain out of the Twins system, which has been going on since Bill Smith took over.

 

Terrible waste.

[jorgenswest]

Do we realize that the talent on the 2013 Twins or the system has not changed?

[nokomismod]

Do we realize that the talent on the 2013 Twins or the system has not changed?

Well maybe because Liriano will not be coming back, but let's see what these other guys can do first. If nothing else, we added two young bodies that have the potential to do something positive. A lot of folks here seem to think they could have brought in a lot more talent for Liriano, but I'm going to be believe that this was the best offer on the table.

[drjim]

From my perspective I hoped for more in return but I was fooling myself. Lots of complaining in this thread and others but I really want to know what people expected out of this. Look at the thread under "Liriano's Value" he nailed it there.

 

A qualifying offer to receive a draft pick was not going to happen. No team would have given up their first round pick to sign him, so Liriano would have taken the $12.4 mil and the Twins would have been stuck with him.

 

I long advocated trading him as quickly as possible for as much as they can get. They did it, I've moved on.

[jctwins]

Now listed as Tuesday night's probable starter against Blackie. This could be a high scoring affair.

[chopper0080]

Meh, a pitcher at AAA and a SS with major league skills is better than a comp pick or Liriano at 12 mil. I don't love the deal and wish we could have gotten more, but I have to think this is about as valuable as Liriano is.

[Turd Furgeson]

Kevin Goldstein and Jason Parks have said that the White Sox have the worst farm system in the minors. Their best prospect is a relief pitching prospect. The fact that we didn't even get a top prospect in that system isn't encouraging.

[70charger]

Ok, hopefully trade time is done. This is just terrible. Trading within THE DIVISION is one thing, but doing it and getting next to nothing in return for a guy who at least is 50% very good, is absolutely ridiculous.

Nope. June and July are not 50% of the season.

 

We don't need a 5th starter type and a middle infielder with low upside.

 

Very few people here seem to get it. Liriano IS a fifth starter. His ERA+ over the last six years is, frankly, ****ty.

 

He. Is. Not. A. Good. Pitcher.

 

Get over it!

[70charger]

To recap:

 

Pedro Hernandez, Eduardo Escobar, and Deolis Guerra=Johan Santana and Francisco Liriano

 

This is so ridiculously wrong, it's ridiculous. Hey, let's not think for one second about how long these people were under contract with the Twins!

 

I'd say that 2 months of Liriano losing late-season games for Minnesota is "worth" less than nothing. We should all be happy we got more than a bag of balls. The fact of the matter is that neither one nor the other was going to be a Twin for any more a couple of months at the time of their trade. Santana was good, granted, but Liriano is not.

 

I'm going to be laughing at all of you when he's losing 10-15 games for whoever the hell he signs with next year, and for way too much money to boot.

[70charger]

Jeez, you go camping and come back to this bull****.

 

I can't add anything that already hasn't been said, so I'll keep it simple. THE TWINS FRONT OFFICE IS FULL OF MORONS.

Well, I feel good. I've just been proven right. Anything that DPJ hates is clearly good for the Twins.