Ramirez Outrighted, Boshers called up

[d-mac]

BTW, something definitely appears to be afoot with Abad. 

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/giants-trade-rumors-bullpen-relievers.html

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

If you're looking for someone to name your puppy after, Buddy Boshers gives you plenty of great possibilities.  With Chargois, you're stuck with the nickname.

 

I know a lot of dogs that could pass with a nickname of Shaggy.

[Jham]

Boshers over Ramirez was easy.  May off the DL and Boshers down was fairly easy as well.  Boshers is a 28 year old rookie with options.  May has been a fixture in the pen for the last 2 years.  Ramirez was pretty bad and able to clear waivers.

 

Boshers over Chargois was somewhat surprising.  But it's not like Boshers didn't earn the call.  He's maybe had the best season of any reliever in the organization when looking at his AAA and big league success.  The frustration over no Shaggy is understandable.  The frustration over Buddy over Shaggy is less so to me.  Someone's going to get traded in a minute anyway.

[Dantes929]

 

so you are saying this bullpen is just too good to add Chargois to?

I think if the pen has pitched pretty well as of late and they just got rid of the weakest link.    Boshers pitched very well when with the Twins and very well in the minors.    I get the angst over Chargois and would have liked to see him also but Boshers has earned the promotion.   Chargois has earned it also and I expect to see him very soon.

 

 What I was hoping to see was Nolasco traded and Berrios promoted.    Anyone else noticed that in Nolasco's rebound year he is 4-8 with a 5.04 ERA while Milone is once again 2nd on the rotation in ERA..     

 

One of the problems right now is that for the last month or so the Twins are 15-11 and playing pretty much like they were supposed to all year so I get wanting to ride out this nice stretch for a little bit even though they are out of it and should be thinking more long term.  If they get smoked by Boston I see a lot of changes coming.

[Jham]

 

BTW, something definitely appears to be afoot with Abad. 

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/giants-trade-rumors-bullpen-relievers.html

A Cubs fan posted a proposal for Abad.  He's willing to give up a former first round pick in Billy Mckinney.  Bad news is he has a career .648 OPS in 4 seasons of MILB.  

[jimmer]

 

Milone is once again 2nd on the rotation in ERA..     

 

 

Quite the dubious distinction.  When having an ERA of 4.47 is looked at with happiness and reverence ;-)  The team has hardly set the bar high.

 

He's 5th in FIP.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Quite the dubious distinction.  When having an ERA of 4.47 is looked at with happiness and reverence ;-)

 

 

He rightly takes some grief.....but Milone has been a fine number 5 in his time here, imo. Getting him for nothing was a nice move by TR and team.

[jimmer]

 

He rightly takes some grief.....but Milone has been a fine number 5 in his time here, imo. Getting him for nothing was a nice move by TR and team.

Problem is, we've had quite a few fine #5 pitchers.  That phrase 'fine #5 pitcher' has been used to describe maybe 25 pitchers in our rotation in the last 5 years :-)  They can't all sit in the 5 spot.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Problem is, we've had quite a few fine #5 pitchers.  That phrase 'fine #5 pitcher' has been used to describe maybe 25 pitchers in our rotation in the last 5 years :-)  They can't all sit in the 5 spot.

 

That's not Tommy's fault, though......but I share your frustration.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Boshers over Ramirez was easy.  May off the DL and Boshers down was fairly easy as well.

They actually chose Ramirez over Boshers when May came off the DL.

[jimmer]

 

That's not Tommy's fault, though......but I share your frustration.

Tommy, since 2013, has been worth a total of 3.3 WAR.  He doesn't eat innings, his FIPS are bad and on the majority of teams, he wouldn't be in the rotation.  Being the #5 pitcher on what's been, not too arguably, the worst rotation the last couple years is not something to hang a hat on.

[d-mac]

 

A Cubs fan posted a proposal for Abad.  He's willing to give up a former first round pick in Billy Mckinney.  Bad news is he has a career .648 OPS in 4 seasons of MILB.  

 

If you mean this Billy McKinney: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa737528&position=OF

And I think you do, I'd do that in a heartbeat. He doesn't have much power but hits for a high average and draws a ton of walks. Not too many high OBP guys in our system right now. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Tommy, since 2013, has been worth a total of 3.3 WAR.  He doesn't eat innings, his FIPS are bad and on the majority of teams, he wouldn't be in the rotation.  Being the #5 pitcher on what's been, not too arguably, the worst rotation the last couple years is not something to hang a hat on.

 

That puts him 121st of starters in that time frame......30 teams.....7-10 starters per team per year......121st isn't actually all that bad.....

[d-mac]

 

If you mean this Billy McKinney: http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=sa737528&position=OF

And I think you do, I'd do that in a heartbeat. He doesn't have much power but hits for a high average and draws a ton of walks. Not too many high OBP guys in our system right now. 

And he's young. A 21 year old in AA? Yes please. And Chris Mitchell's KATOH projection system ranked him as the number 2 prospect in the Cubs org before the season started. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/katoh-projects-chicago-cubs-prospects/

[ashbury]

And he's young. A 21 year old in AA? Yes please.

I just had an idea how to inflate the trade value of prospects. Twins, contact me directly, with regard to your present GM opening.

[Dantes929]

 

Quite the dubious distinction.  When having an ERA of 4.47 is looked at with happiness and reverence ;-)  The team has hardly set the bar high.

 

He's 5th in FIP.

No where did I say happy or reverent.    He has always been behind Nolasco  in FIP but always ahead of him in actual run prevention which, after over a 100 starts means something to me especially now that they pitch for the same team and its pretty much the same story...   I would rather have Milone but am ok that you disagree.     I would not be reverent but happy enough if the rotation was Santana, Gibson, Duffey, Berrios and Milone. which is pretty much what I wanted at the start of the year and they are all pretty much  pitching now like I expected them to all year.

[jimmer]

 

No where did I say happy or reverent.    He has always been behind Nolasco  in FIP but always ahead of him in actual run prevention which, after over a 100 starts means something to me especially now that they pitch for the same team and its pretty much the same story...   I would rather have Milone but am ok that you disagree.     I would not be reverent but happy enough if the rotation was Santana, Gibson, Duffey, Berrios and Milone. which is pretty much what I wanted at the start of the year and they are all pretty much  pitching now like I expected them to all year.

I put a smiley after happy  and reverent.  I was joking with that part of the comment.

 

And a lot of things contribute to actual run prevention.  If you believe it's almost all on the pitcher (which explains judging a pitcher's performance on ERA over FIP) then we won't agree.  Most people think of ERA (or versions of it) as the main stat to judge pitchers by.  I prefer FIP, while understanding it's not a perfect stat to judge pitcher performance on but finding it still better than ERA is.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Problem is, we've had quite a few fine #5 pitchers.  That phrase 'fine #5 pitcher' has been used to describe maybe 25 pitchers in our rotation in the last 5 years :-)  They can't all sit in the 5 spot.

 

I tend to believe you flip those fine number 5s for minor league assets if your team is out of it.  Usually some contending team needs a fine number 5... 

 

Unfortunately, too many number 5s alive in the Twins rotation...

[Dantes929]

 

That puts him 121st of starters in that time frame......30 teams.....7-10 starters per team per year......121st isn't actually all that bad.....

Lets go with 7 per team which still makes him translate into closer to a 3 or 4 than a 5.    Plenty of playoff teams would have been just as well off or better with him as the #5 guy.     I just like watching him pitch more than some.   He was compared to Glavine the other day and I could imagine him doing pretty well if he was given 5 inches on the outside corner like Glavine instead of squeezed by an inch.

[d-mac]

 

Lets go with 7 per team which still makes him translate into closer to a 3 or 4 than a 5.    Plenty of playoff teams would have been just as well off or better with him as the #5 guy.     I just like watching him pitch more than some.   He was compared to Glavine the other day and I could imagine him doing pretty well if he was given 5 inches on the outside corner like Glavine instead of squeezed by an inch.

 

Having a better pitch framing catcher would definitely help Milone. 

[Jham]

 

They actually chose Ramirez over Boshers when May came off the DL.

That's almost easier.  Options vs. out of options.  As it turned out it wouldn't have mattered!  We got Boshers out of an independent league for nothing.  But I'm still intrigued by a little upside.  He played 25 games in 2013 with Angels, but do not know if that qualifies as an option year if he was just a September guy.  If Boshers is in AAA, GM's forget about him.  If Boshers' is with the big club and faces the Sox and strikes out Papi and Xander in a big spot, GM's notice, if we're set on trying to trade him (we should have at least 1 more option year depending on whether he can be a minor league FA).  I think Buddy > Shaggy til the deadline. I'd like to see Wimmers get some innings as well (or give him his release and let him try to catch on with someone else).

[Otto von Ballpark]

That's almost easier. Options vs. out of options. As it turned out it wouldn't have mattered! We got Boshers out of an independent league for nothing. But I'm still intrigued by a little upside. He played 25 games in 2013 with Angels, but do not know if that qualifies as an option year if he was just a September guy. If Boshers is in AAA, GM's forget about him. If Boshers' is with the big club and faces the Sox and strikes out Papi and Xander in a big spot, GM's notice, if we're set on trying to trade him (we should have at least 1 more option year depending on whether he can be a minor league FA). I think Buddy > Shaggy til the deadline. I'd like to see Wimmers get some innings as well (or give him his release and let him try to catch on with someone else).

Again, wouldn't it have been better to showcase Boshers for all of July instead? And reward him for his successful pitching up to that point?

 

Just waiting for the right time to pass Ramirez through waivers instead? When we ourselves passed on him when he first hit waivers in May? Just seems a lot of work invested in Ramirez when Boshers is apparently more deserving anyway.

[bluechipper]

I've seen a lot of posters saying that Boshers and Chargois were equally deserving to get recalled, and that's probably true. My question is why do the Twins seem to always troll us by choosing the more "meh" player to get the call?

[Jham]

 

Again, wouldn't it have been better to showcase Boshers for all of July instead? And reward him for his successful pitching up to that point?

Just waiting for the right time to pass Ramirez through waivers instead? When we ourselves passed on him when he first hit waivers in May? Just seems a lot of work invested in Ramirez when Boshers is apparently more deserving anyway.

Yeah.  Totally.  Seems like they wanted to see Ramirez for a bit, then realized their supposed mistake and corrected it.  Ideally I'd like to see some more "corrections".  May to the rotation, even if I suspect he'll end up back in the pen, Chargois up, and Berrios up.

[stringer bell]

Ramirez had quite a bit of success before dealing with injuries. If the Twins can find the pre-injury Ramirez, it is worth the trouble they've taken on him. They saw him enough to know they wanted him at Rochester (not with the Twins, but not released) and got him through unclaimed. If he can come back some time in the next year and be more like the pitcher he was with the Cubs, then the Twins have played the waiver game well with Ramirez.

 

IIRC, the Twins have lost more than their fair share of guys they've tried to outright. They now have room on their 40-man, so they can recall a guy not on that roster and they should be able to claim a couple of worthwhile gambles. I'd rather they had a winning record and full 40-man, but if they can snag a player or two it could be some small reward.

[Jham]

 

I've seen a lot of posters saying that Boshers and Chargois were equally deserving to get recalled, and that's probably true. My question is why do the Twins seem to always troll us by choosing the more "meh" player to get the call?

It probably seems that way because of the availability heuristic.  We remember pretty much every time a Twins move made us angry.  When we agree with a move, it doesn't generate an emotional response, and it blends into the background.  The underwhelming results of the more popular moves also make these call-ups less memorable.  Combine with a probable level of organizational conservatism based on an inability to sift through veterans and prospects alike (some truth to it) and it will seem like the Twins always move up X when the fans want to see Y.

[bluechipper]

 

It probably seems that way because of the availability heuristic.  We remember pretty much every time a Twins move made us angry.  When we agree with a move, it doesn't generate an emotional response, and it blends into the background.  The underwhelming results of the more popular moves also make these call-ups less memorable.  Combine with a probable level of conservatism based on an inability to sift through veterans and prospects alike (some truth to it) and it will seem like the Twins always move up X when the fans want to see Y.

I was trying to figure out that term when I made my post, but I couldn't remember what it was called. Thanks for reminding me.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Ramirez had quite a bit of success before dealing with injuries. If the Twins can find the pre-injury Ramirez, it is worth the trouble they've taken on him. They saw him enough to know they wanted him at Rochester (not with the Twins, but not released) and got him through unclaimed. If he can come back some time in the next year and be more like the pitcher he was with the Cubs, then the Twins have played the waiver game well with Ramirez.

As I pointed out above, the Twins actually passed on claiming Ramirez on waivers in May. Two weeks later, they claimed him after Trevor May got hurt. If they really saw something in Ramirez, to the point they would hold back two deserving candidates for promotion in Boshers and Chargois just to better time their attempt to pass him through waivers themselves, they had a funny way of showing it.

 

I think it is more likely that Ramirez just happened to be the fungible guy available when a need developed, and they sometimes have a hard time letting go from those guys.

[Dantes929]

 

I put a smiley after happy  and reverent.  I was joking with that part of the comment.

 

And a lot of things contribute to actual run prevention.  If you believe it's almost all on the pitcher (which explains judging a pitcher's performance on ERA over FIP) then we won't agree.  Most people think of ERA (or versions of it) as the main stat to judge pitchers by.  I prefer FIP, while understanding it's not a perfect stat to judge pitcher performance on but finding it still better than ERA is.

FIP is very relevant but just seems too generic for me.    I don't believe it is all just about home runs, walks and strikeouts.  I do believe that not all pitchers, even over time, have the same results on balls hit in play when home runs are taken out of the equation.   Steve Wright last night certainly induced weak swings and his balls put into play are going to be different than Nolasco.     It also doesn't take into account holding runners on, inducing double plays or keeping batters off balance more with runners on base.     It may be a better metric than ERA in general but run prevention is still the goal and if year in and year out one pitcher has a better FIP eventually that should also result in better run prevention and into a better ERA.   .

[h2oface]

How are you liking Boshers now? I am sticking with my fools gold analogy.