Neal: Home-Groan: Twins Trouble Drafting, Developing Starters

[Willihammer]

Well, it seems like the Twins admit there was an issue.  From the article:

 

Within the past five years, the Twins changed their approach. Because of losing records, they received higher draft picks and a better chance to land top-end arms.

They focused on power potential — as well as more inventory.

“We did our research,” Radcliff said. “We didn’t select enough [pitchers]. We didn’t even give ourselves a chance in the ’90s and 2000s.

“The attrition rate, how they fall off either by not being very good or getting injured, You never have enough pitching.”

Not true.

 

Between 1994 (when Radcliffe took over as Scouting director) and 2007 (when he was promoted to VP), the Twins drafted 395 pitchers in the June drafts. 6th most of any franchise.

 

The problem is scouting, developing, or both. Its not a lack of quantity.

 

Tm2 Total

Yankees 427

Braves 419

Marlins 416

Indians 407

Royals 399

Twins 395

Mariners 393

Cubs 386

Giants 385

Mets 385

Blue 382

Rangers 377

Astros 374

Dodgers 372

Brewers 371

Rockies 370

White 365

Angels 358

Orioles 358

Reds 355

Cardinals 348

Pirates 345

Tigers 343

Red 339

Phillies 333

Athletics 321

Padres 305

Expos 295

Devil 273

Diamondbacks 265

Rays 106

Nationals 81

D'backs 62

[Willihammer]

In the Smith years, 2008-2011, the Twins drafted 146 pitchers, most of any franchise.

 

Tm2 Total

Twins 146

Rangers 145

Indians 138

Reds 134

Yankees 134

Blue 133

Brewers 132

Phillies 132

Mariners 131

Royals 130

Cubs 130

Pirates 130

Red 130

Rays 128

Cardinals 128

Mets 128

Orioles 126

Marlins 123

White 122

Diamondbacks 122

Giants 120

Nationals 120

Braves 119

Astros 119

Rockies 116

Padres 115

Tigers 114

Angels 113

Athletics 111

Dodgers 106

Grand Total 3775

 

 

In the TR 2.0 era, 2012-2016, they've drafted 101 pitchers, 26th most.

 

Tm2 Total

Rangers 126

Mets 121

Brewers 118

Orioles 117

Reds 116

Padres 116

Phillies 114

Yankees 113

Rockies 112

Tigers 111

Pirates 110

Giants 108

Dodgers 106

Marlins 106

Cubs 106

Rays 105

Royals 105

Cardinals 104

Nationals 104

Blue 103

Braves 103

Indians 102

Astros 102

Athletics 102

Mariners 101

Twins 101

Red 94

Diamondbacks 93

White 92

Angels 91

Grand Total 3202

[Mike Sixel]

Fascinating data! Thanks......so, ya, it's not the number, but the quality.

[old nurse]

Drafting pitchers by the number drafted really doesn't mean that much. Quality over quantity.  In TR2 era 23 out of the 55 picks in the first 10 rounds have been pitchers.  20 of them in the first 5 rounds. Later round chances of finding a front line player diminish under the slotting and capped system.  Don't know if that is above or below average

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

 

Not true.

 

Between 1994 (when Radcliffe took over as Scouting director) and 2007 (when he was promoted to VP), the Twins drafted 395 pitchers in the June drafts. 6th most of any franchise.

 

The problem is scouting, developing, or both. Its not a lack of quantity.

 

Tm2 Total

Yankees 427

Braves 419

Marlins 416

Indians 407

Royals 399

Twins 395

Mariners 393

Cubs 386

Giants 385

Mets 385

Blue 382

Rangers 377

Astros 374

Dodgers 372

Brewers 371

Rockies 370

White 365

Angels 358

Orioles 358

Reds 355

Cardinals 348

Pirates 345

Tigers 343

Red 339

Phillies 333

Athletics 321

Padres 305

Expos 295

Devil 273

Diamondbacks 265

Rays 106

Nationals 81

D'backs 62

Need to combine some franchises there, and prorate for expansion teams.

 

Do the numbers change at all if you limit it to a certain number of rounds? Could they have been drafting a lot of org filler pitchers at the end of the draft, padding their overall numbers?

 

Although it wouldn't surprise me if the Twins misinterpreted their data too...

[alarp33]

 

 

 

2007. Revere at #28. Not one front line starter selected after him.

 

 

 

How many Cy Youngs would Corey Kluber or Jake Arrieta need to win to be considered front line?

 

 

Or Jordan Zimmerman, Matt Harvey (didnt sign), Chris Sale (didn't sign)

[tobi0040]

Need to combine some franchises there, and prorate for expansion teams.

 

Do the numbers change at all if you limit it to a certain number of rounds? Could they have been drafting a lot of org filler pitchers at the end of the draft, padding their overall numbers?

 

Although it wouldn't surprise me if the Twins misinterpreted their data too...

Yeah, I looked at SP WAR the last 2-3 years a few weeks ago. If I remember correctly, a little more than 50% of the guys in the top 20 came from the first round. Another 20% or so came from rounds 2-3. The fact that we only used about a third of our first round picks on SP and a ton of 2-4th rounders on relievers probably helps to explain why we didn't get our share of them. Then the low ceiling piece plays a role as well.

 

So I don't put much stock in the number of SP either. Especially since most of the teams are within about 40 spread across 14 years.

[Willihammer]

 

Need to combine some franchises there, and prorate for expansion teams.

Do the numbers change at all if you limit it to a certain number of rounds? Could they have been drafting a lot of org filler pitchers at the end of the draft, padding their overall numbers?

Although it wouldn't surprise me if the Twins misinterpreted their data too...

Yeah the AZ and TB teams are listed twice. Expose left in 2005, etc. Feel free to modify the table to adjust for those franchises. I was mainly interested in stink testing Radcliffe's explanation "not enough pitching". But the rounds definitely make a difference as would signing bonus rules and caps which have changed over the years. Here is the combined table I downloaded from baseball-reference over lunch:

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5pIzP28qdp-VWRIMGsyTTd3eWc

 

I did a rough check. The Twins drafted 64 pitchers in the first 5 rounds since 1994, which is 11th of 28 (not incl. TB, AZ or MON). They drafted 11 in the first round, 17th of 28 teams. They have emphasized pitching even more at the higher rounds since 2012, drafting 18 in the first 5 rounds (tied for 3rd overall), but only 2 first rounders.

[FormerMinnasotan]

Apparently the Twins feel they have the right pitchers in the organization and no longer feel the need to draft more starting pitching. While I feel we have good pitchers who could be frontline starters (#1 or 2 types) in Jose Berrios, Stephen Gonsalves, Tyler Jay, Kohl Stewart, Felix Jorge, Fernando Romero, and maybe Lewis Thorpe there is no guarantee any of these pitchers will pan out. After those pitchers are Randy LaBlanc, Sam Clay, and Lachlan Wells. It just feels like we don't have as much pitching depth through out the system as we should have.

 

My second point is we ha have good development in the minors, but once they are in the majors our pitching coaching staff is subpar. I mean I view Jose Berrios is as good as it gets for a pitching prospect, and yet he struggled (which is to be expected) and for a pitcher known to make quick adjustments to get himself to be successful at what ever level he is in seemed lost at the Majors and all it seemed is the Twins coaching staff blamed him for his poor performance and did very little to help correct the issues plaguing Berrios. If that is true then how could any prospect prosper here if the coaching staff doesn't work with these young pitchers to be successful?

[jimmer]

 

My second point is we ha have good development in the minors, but once they are in the majors our pitching coaching staff is subpar.

What do you base this opinion on?

[FormerMinnasotan]

What do you base this opinion on?

More recently Jose Berrios has been very good in the minors, Kyle Gibson was a great minor leaguer as well. Scott Baker while a so-so starter in the majors (even before Tommy John) was great in the minors, Kevin Slowey was lights out in the minors and even if you took away his injuries he was only mediocre (ERA even when healthy was over 4 in the majors).

[d-mac]

 

The answer can't be a glaring no if it's all speculative. You can't say "no" to something that isn't falsifiable. It's your opinion, and nothing more.

 

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/c9/c9e1095062393a24dab581243efc2de1caad68a4a78377fcb4a8fe54472060f1.jpg

[jimmer]

 

More recently Jose Berrios has been very good in the minors, Kyle Gibson was a great minor leaguer as well. Scott Baker while a so-so starter in the majors (even before Tommy John) was great in the minors, Kevin Slowey was lights out in the minors and even if you took away his injuries he was only mediocre (ERA even when healthy was over 4 in the majors).

The majors are harder than the minors.  If you compare certain minor league numbers to major league numbers, you will very often find minor league numbers better.  Almost all players

 

We don't know what Berrios is in the majors yet and I wouldn't say Gibson or Baker was great in the minors. 

 

I'm not saying our major league staff is good, but, IMO, I think our development in the minors is more of a problem.  I think isn't an organizational thing.

[wsnydes]

 

More recently Jose Berrios has been very good in the minors, Kyle Gibson was a great minor leaguer as well. Scott Baker while a so-so starter in the majors (even before Tommy John) was great in the minors, Kevin Slowey was lights out in the minors and even if you took away his injuries he was only mediocre (ERA even when healthy was over 4 in the majors).

I think I'd use your own argument to argue that the farm system doesn't do a great job of developing players.  Their purpose is to prepare players for the major leagues.  Continually having guys come up and struggling is the hallmark of a team that doesn't prepare them well enough.  It is not the big league team's staffs responsibility to develop these guys.  That's the farm systems job.  The majors are a completely different beast and struggles are to be expected, but struggles and failure are very different things.

[tobi0040]

I think I'd use your own argument to argue that the farm system doesn't do a great job of developing players.  Their purpose is to prepare players for the major leagues.  Continually having guys come up and struggling is the hallmark of a team that doesn't prepare them well enough.  It is not the big league team's staffs responsibility to develop these guys.  That's the farm systems job.  The majors are a completely different beast and struggles are to be expected, but struggles and failure are very different things.

I completely agree with this. The point of your minor league system is not to win the AA league or to have the best record. It is to groom players to become good major league players.

 

You can look out and see player after player who put up just good enough numbers to move up to the next level, without ever adjusting to what will hurt them in the majors. Guys like Eddie Rosario and Adam Walker are prime examples. Strike zone discipline was either never stressed or our coaches never got through to these guys.

[Willihammer]

 

Fascinating data! Thanks......so, ya, it's not the number, but the quality.

If we were talking about 4 or 5 drafts, I'd probably agree. But 618 pitchers over 23 drafts? You would think they'd have developed more front line starters just through sheer dumb luck but in truth, Scott Baker and his 15.7 WARs was the very best pitcher drafted in the Radcliffe era.

 

On average, all pitchers drafted in that span had a WAR of .322. The Twins averaged .256 WAR / pitcher. Good for 21st of the 28 franchises (I'm exluding AZ, TB, and MON for simplicity).

 

Is 100% of that on scouting? What about the old signing bonus rules / Metrodome revenues / owner cheapness? How much blame goes to poor coaching? Some or all of the above? Who knows. Probably there's blame to go around. System-wide. Call it a "systemic total fail."

[Mike Sixel]

 

If we were talking about 4 or 5 drafts, I'd probably agree. But 618 pitchers over 23 drafts? You would think they'd have developed more front line starters just through sheer dumb luck but in truth, Scott Baker and his 15.7 WARs was the very best pitcher drafted in the Radcliffe era.

 

On average, all pitchers drafted in that span had a WAR of .322. The Twins averaged .256 WAR / pitcher. Good for 21st of the 28 franchises (I'm exluding AZ, TB, and MON for simplicity).

 

Is 100% of that on scouting? What about the old signing bonus rules / Metrodome revenues / owner cheapness? How much blame goes to poor coaching? Some or all of the above? Who knows. Probably there's blame to go around. System-wide. Call it a "systemic total fail."

 

I'm with you, I pointed out that they are bottom 5 over the last 26 years in starter ERA up thread. That isn't about where they are picking.....or development....or international signings, it is a total system failure.

[Rosterman]

Drafting is always a tough call. Sometimes, now, a player does become available that you weren't expecting. The old days, you always had to worry about signability and how much you wanted to spend (two areas the Twins seldom pushed...they looked for comfort, or so it was reported). That all changed now when draft picks are pretty much guaranteed certain salary levels.

 

What is also changing now is the ability of teams to market draft picks earlier in trades, and - quite frankly - any team should be able to judge the tradability or keeping of a prospect by their third year in baseball, be it a depth need for their team, or they have a good idea of how that player will develop going forward to High-A and above

 

Here is a list of all the Twins first round picks.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?query_type=franch_round&team_ID=MIN&draft_round=1&draft_type=junreg&

 

Whew! That nice 10-year stretch where the Twins drafted Ard and Belcher and Ritchie and Baumgarner and Banks and Barcelo. And later there were lower draftees like Adam Johnson and J.D. Durbin.

 

But something always seems to be missing. You groom players (you don't win minor league championships). You teach them - in advance - to work on things they need to work on as they grow thru the system and keep facing higher levels of talent. You don't fill minor league rosters with 26th and 41st players, keeping your own players further down on the farm working and facing the same old same old.

 

You do draft the best possible. And if you have an opportunity later, you do trades, which I applaud, from your strengths like all those outfielders you have drafted (span, Revere, Hicks) for other areas that you need improvement. But then ask "why" the guys don't develop the same way they were developing in the other team's system, and why have the players you traded not fallen apart.

 

Do the Twins know their players? Are those minor league names we see as the top 30/40 prospects really getting the training they deserve to call themselves prospects and make the major leagues, either with the Twins or with another team in which the Twins used them as trade fodder to fulfill a greater need?

 

Does it go back to the Todd Walker days where the Twins DON'T WANT guys with enormous talent to succeed, instead feeling great when a Denny Hocking makes the grade. Yet they did allow Mike Cuddyer to develop. We can say they had all the patience needed to get Trevor Plouffe to the majors. 

 

Us armchair general managers probably NEVER know what we talk about, or realize that everything about the gae of baseball is based on human instinct with a few more elaborate stat measurements thrown in and when you look at 150 players every season and try to figure out what needs to be done to make sure each and everyone of them plays and reaches their potential...well, it might just be mind-boggling when you discuss a sport that does showcase individual endeavors but does rely a lot of overall team chemistry and play.

 

e

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Fascinating data! Thanks......so, ya, it's not the number, but the quality.

isnt it both? And also the developmental part. You draft a million pitchers but if they don't learn the right tools, they'll never pan out, no matter how talented

[Mike Sixel]

 

isnt it both? And also the developmental part. You draft a million pitchers but if they don't learn the right tools, they'll never pan out, no matter how talented

 

The Twins said they didn't draft enough pitchers.......this data was about the validity of that statement....

[bird]

 

It's somehow never the Twins' fault they haven't been good at drafting and developing SP. Looking at the last 16 years.....the Twins rank 26th in ERA from starters. That's not average, that's not median, that's not as good as other teams. If you think I'm cherry picking, going back 10 more years, to 1990.....they are 25th in ERA in the last 26 years. I don't know how to characterize that other than "not good enough". It's hard to believe that in 26 years, they never had a chance to draft and develop more than 2 or 3 good pitchers.

 

 

I don't know who ever said it was never the Twin's fault that they haven't produced good results over 16 years, or over 26 years, or whatever. I for one think it is very much their fault.

 

I disagree with your first sentence though. I believe it's an erroneous conclusion that has become a "fact" for many now. There are other factors at work here, Mike. It's my theory that they are maybe nominally better or nominally worse than average at drafting and developing starting pitching, and that this has been the case for quite some time, perhaps as long as a decade or so.

 

It's everyone's prerogative to ignore the facts I laid out earlier in the thread. Could it be other factors, such as avoiding free agency for much of this period? Bad coaching at the MLB level? I don't know why the long=term numbers are so abysmal. But I just don't see good evidence that the cause of this is inferior drafting and development of starting pitchers.

 

For fun, make a list of very pitcher, in both leagues, that you believe are or have been clear #1 or #2 guys. Next, eliminate the names on the list that were unavailable to the Twins in the Rule 4 draft. Next, make a list of every team that passed on each of the remaining front-line starters in each round they were passed up. If you want, you make the list, I'll do the grunt work. Now, we may discover a franchise or three with a sweet record of finding later-round gems, or IFA gems, We also may find a team or two with a knack for trading for them, and a team or two with a good FA track record. I don't know. But my hunch is that we're going to have a very long list of teams with approximately the same type of record when it comes to drafting and developing starting pitchers.

 

That's always been my pushback. Is it a problem with drafting and development competence, or is it something else? And my pet peeve is ignoring the fact that Sale, Kershaw, Verlander, Strasberg, and three dozen other #1 and #2 guys were never available for the Twins to draft and develop.

[Dbohnk]

Something that has been mentioned but not talked about in depth in this article or thread is the lack of quality pitching the Twins have gotten back in trades. In no particular order.

Johan Santana for Humber, Mulvey, Guerra.  

Span for Alex Meyer who doesn't seem likely to produce

Revere for Worley, and May who is decent but stuck in the bullpen

Hardy for Huey and Jacobson

I think there are more that I am forgetting. 

But clearly they have missed adding pitching in every way possible. 

[bird]

 

Draft slot is an issue. No doubt. I wasn’t suggesting that we needed to get an ace every year. My point is that the draft is the only real way we can consistently acquire good pitching. So if we are only using 33% of our top picks on starting pitchers, with a few of those picks being lower ceiling guys, aren’t we all but ensuring we are going to have a fairly large shortfall? Even one more Gibson and one more Garza would have made the Twins staff borderline respectable. We also shot ourselves in the foot by taking good SP assets in Johan and Garza and trading them for packages built around outfielders.

It isn’t necessarily the Monday morning QB of each pick. Rather the thought process. What was the upside of Ben Revere, Alex Wimmers, or Gutierrez? Is that the type of guy you can afford in free agency? If so, maybe you take a guy with a higher ceiling that you can’t afford in free agency. I had no issues with the Garza and Gibson picks. Gibson was a borderline top five guy until he had red flags about injuries. I loved the pick at the time. But when I read the draft profile of Alex Wimmers, topping out at 90 mph and I heard about good "command and control" I had the opposite reaction. We can afford a #4 or #5 starter. Why aim for one 21st overall? 

 

 

You make sense here. There's a good chance that there were problems with the "thought process" back in 2010, pre-Target Field, and there's a good chance we still have a "thought process" problem in the GM's seat when it comes to the financial part of things, and with the risk tolerance piece. But there's at least some evidence that this is no longer a problem, what with guys like Jay, Stewart, Berrios, Gonsalves et al in the queue. 

[mlhouse]

The problem with the Twins is three fold.

 

First, the Twins rarely sign free agents and the ones they do are mid-tier at best.  So, the talent stream is not going to be augmented by money.

 

Second, the Twins are not going to trade, let alone package together, a group of minor league prospects to acquire any proven talent.  The truth is that in most cases these trades have a very high return on value mostly because the teams that make these trades for prospects usually are discounting because of the financial costs.  AS a caveat, the minor trades of prospects the Twins have made, for example Ramos for Matt Capps have not panned out very well.

 

Third, the Twins have not had the best of luck drafting starting pitching.  Maybe Tyler Duffey alone makes up for it, but the "reliever" to starter strategy never panned out, and that might not have been totally devastating except for the fact that most of the article is true.  The Twins simply have not been able to develop a starting pitcher picked high in the draft for a very long time.

 

If you look at starting pitchers drafted in the first two rounds, the Twins have been remarkablyu unsuccessful.  Since 1995 - 2011, 17 years of drafting, the Twins have made twelve starting pitchers their first round picks and of those 12 just three have been succesful major league pitchers:  Mark Redmond, Matt Garza, and Kyle Gibson.  Of course, two of those pitchers were succesful for OTHER teams and not the Twins.  The list of failures:  Ryan Mills (98), Adam Johnson (00), Kyle Waldrop (04), Matt Fox (04), Jay Rainville (04), Carlos Guiteriez (08), Shooter Hunt (08), Alex Wimmer (10), and Hudson Boyd (11).

 

The second round is almost as bad.  The Twins have drafted 7 pitchers in the 2nd round.  THey had 3 (consecutive) that made it to the major leagues. Scott Baker, Anthony Swarzak, and Kevin Slowey.  Of those 3 only Baker was really a viable starter.  

 

While other teams may or may not have as bad of luck drafting starting pitching, the Twins have no other way of finding arms that can pitch at the top of a major league starting rotation or even in a major league starting rotation. If you refuse to sign anybody better than Phil Hughes, Ricky Nolansco, and Ervin Santana as free agent  (Caveat, even when they do sign veteran free agents it usually has been a mistake), you refuse to trade your prospects at inflated values,  and you only have 3 out of 12 first round starters even make the major league level you are not going to have a very good rotation.

 

Since these problems are part of every position, you are not going to have a very good team.

[nicksaviking]

In the Smith years, 2008-2011, the Twins drafted 146 pitchers, most of any franchise.Tm2 TotalTwins 146Rangers 145Indians 138Reds 134Yankees 134Blue 133Brewers 132Phillies 132Mariners 131Royals 130Cubs 130Pirates 130Red 130Rays 128Cardinals 128Mets 128Orioles 126Marlins 123White 122Diamondbacks 122Giants 120Nationals 120Braves 119Astros 119Rockies 116Padres 115Tigers 114Angels 113Athletics 111Dodgers 106Grand Total 3775In the TR 2.0 era, 2012-2016, they've drafted 101 pitchers, 26th most.Tm2 TotalRangers 126Mets 121Brewers 118Orioles 117Reds 116Padres 116Phillies 114Yankees 113Rockies 112Tigers 111Pirates 110Giants 108Dodgers 106Marlins 106Cubs 106Rays 105Royals 105Cardinals 104Nationals 104Blue 103Braves 103Indians 102Astros 102Athletics 102Mariners 101Twins 101Red 94Diamondbacks 93White 92Angels 91Grand Total 3202

Nice research! I wonder if those numbers might not reflect reaction as opposed to causation. Perhaps they drafted a lot in your first two breakouts because they knew they had troubles.

 

Like a lot of things with this club lately, the lack of pitchers drafted in the third breakout is puzzling.

[bird]

 

I don't understand. You're saying there weren't any front line guys available after these picks, but then also saying not to have a silly response like listing all the front line guys that were available. What other response would be appropriate?

By the way, there were front line starters and others available, e.g., in 2007, picks after Revere include Jordan Zimmerman, Corey Kluber and Jake Arrieta (and Giancarlo Stanton, Todd Frazier, Freddie Freeman, Josh Donaldson and Jonathan Lucroy, among other good players). At the time, Revere was considered a third round talent, drafted for his affordability.

 

I'm questioning one simple opinion, which is that the Twins are worse than most other teams when it comes to drafting and developing pitchers. I constrained my history to the first round. We're discussing pitchers. We're discussing front line guys, #1 and #2 guys. When we look at aces selected in later rounds, we'll find that most clubs missed on them. That makes it pretty hard to argue that the fact that the Twins missed on Kluber and Zimmerman and Arrietta proves that they are deficient at drafting and developing pitchers, unless your argument is that all or most clubs are deficient at it.

[jorgenswest]

I took a group of 30 successful pitchers and looked at how they performed in the minors. The results were not everything I expected and may have implications for a team trying to develop pitchers with outstanding stuff.

 

http://twinsdaily.com/blog/36/entry-8507-searching-for-radke/

[Mike Sixel]

It's not a fact that being bottom quartile makes you worse than the other 75%? What would be such a fact?

[Guest]

I'm questioning one simple opinion, which is that the Twins are worse than most other teams when it comes to drafting and developing pitchers. I constrained my history to the first round. We're discussing pitchers. We're discussing front line guys, #1 and #2 guys. When we look at aces selected in later rounds, we'll find that most clubs missed on them. That makes it pretty hard to argue that the fact that the Twins missed on Kluber and Zimmerman and Arrietta proves that they are deficient at drafting and developing pitchers, unless your argument is that all or most clubs are deficient at it.

But isn't the major reason why Terry Ryan has his job that he's supposed to be a scouting and development guru? I mean, he's not going to play in the high end of the free agent pool, he's pretty bad in the mid-range of the free agent pool, and he hasn't distinguished himself with consistently doing well in trades. He's not aggressive in international free agency. If the best we can hope for in drafting and development is to miss the same players that most other teams miss, well, then, why bother?

 

EDIT: also, at the time Revere was drafted, he was considered a third round talent, but TR implied he knew better. If you're going to draft third round talent in the first round, it's fair to measure your success by the second and third round talent you missed.

[bird]

 

It's not a fact that being bottom quartile makes you worse than the other 75%? What would be such a fact?

 

 

Worse at what? FA signings? Trades? I remain unconvinced that they are poorer at drafting and developing. The quantity argument has massive holes in it. Their main failure has been front line starters.

 

Someone said earlier that the Twins have drafted and developed more poorly than their AL Central counterparts. Really? First, exclude Sale, Verlander, Bauer, and Rodon. All top 5 selections I think. The Twins drafted after those players were taken. Everyone missed on Kluber. They all missed four times, except the Indians. They only missed on him three times. So, give Cleveland and KC credit of one IFA apiece, Ventura and Carrasco. Because Salazar and Quintana were originally signed by other teams. And there you pretty much have it. Not better, not worse at building their own. Just clearly worse at constructing a pitching staff using all other available avenues, which I think pretty much every one of us sees as having been a problem for a long long time.