The 6th inning bunt.

[Seth Stohs]

 

Well then let's approach it that way. How many games does Nunez sit? How and where do you put an end to one "bone head play" after the other. How do you show that bone head plays have consequences, or in this teams case, it depends on your status. This is not the first time I have heard, "he bunted on his own". If your players don't know when to bunt, do the math for them. You better, it's your job on the line.

 

I guess he could bench one of his 2 best hitters, but that doesn't make much sense. I think a simple conversation should cover it... I just think a lot of players are simply trying to do way too much, overthinking.

[Seth Stohs]

 

None of the runner's business, then?

 

No... why would the batter signal anything? It's like bunting for a hit. You don't signal it, you just do it. 

[Mike Sixel]

No idea if the culture of bunting is learned or not, and I think Molitor is bad tactically, but this is on the player.

[formerly33]

I really can't blame Molly too much, but if Rosario can be sent down for stealing third without a signal, something can surely be done about this. I'm not saying it won't, but the frustration arises because of the extent to which we have employed bunting lately. Molly treats bunts as if they are the way of the future; he has conditioned the team to sac bunt endlessly, so Nunez naturally reverted to it. Bunts are outdated. They may have been the way of the past, but some managers and coaches simply have got to stop digging their heels in and assuming that since something worked 20 years ago, it'll work today. New strategies develop, and you have to stay on top of the game to compete.

 

I think someone else posted a link explaining bunts and win expectancies. I'd like Molly to look into that. He can't treat baseball of the past like Revelation 22:18. He needs to adopt the thinking of a skeptic, explore the Darwinian theory of evolution, get over tradition, and accept the fact that we need to adapt to the changing environment called Major League Baseball in order to survive.

[Platoon]

I guess he could bench one of his 2 best hitters, but that doesn't make much sense. I think a simple conversation should cover it... I just think a lot of players are simply trying to do way too much, overthinking.

There were a lot of things going on here, but thinking, over or not, was not one of them. If a manager is not going to control the parts of the game he can, what exactly does he do? If he isn't going to indicate to the runner, and the hitter, in this situation what he wants done when will he. As for benching Nunez, or anyone for that matter, if he had tried it sooner in the season, maybe this would not be such a confused god awful mess of a team. Whether it's baseball or work or family, playing favorites is never going to work. Nothing costs you your credibility faster.

[Winston Smith]

To bunt or not to bunt-that is the question:

 

Seems like this team has a lot bigger issues than this bunt, like maybe a really bad pitching staff and do I really need to go on?
 

[nicksaviking]

I love this. It was a complete bone head play by Nunez and somehow this is Mollies fault. Sometimes players screw up and it is completely their fault.

I agree, but this kind of foolishness isn't infrequent.

 

Either brain farts are contagious and unpreventable, or the message has not gotten across that this stuff isn't tolerable.

 

Rosario gets demoted for a dumb steal attempt that Plouffe appears to have earlier gotten a free pass on. Buxton gets sent down to fix his technique while Dozier's approach is bordering on insubordination and Nunez bunts in a situation that likely would have seen Arcia DFA'd.

 

The vets are a huge problem, but the fact that they don't appear to be held accountable is a bigger problem. I know the Twins think they lack veteran leadership, but should the message really be: "As a young player you have no leash, but put your time in and you can get away with murder?"

[CampQ]

No... why would the batter signal anything? It's like bunting for a hit. You don't signal it, you just do it.

The bunt and its exegesis are ways to question discipline, I think. Whether Molitor can run a crew. Whether a good manager would have a team with such poor judgment as to try to bunt when you're fourth in the league in batting average and you have the fastest man in baseball on base.

 

Such an argument might go what would TK or Joe Madden do etc etc

 

For my part I am not in a camp. Just surveying

[Ncgo4]

There were a lot of legitimate beefs about Kelly. One thing, however, his team always, ALWAYS, played great fundamental baseball. I recall players complaining that the beginning of spring training always started with training on baseball fundamentals. Simple things that we were taught in little league. It may have been beneath some of his millionaire players, but by gosh, they didn't try to steal 3rd base with 2 out and down in a game. They seldom missed the cut off man, either. It was a fun lesson to watch them play.

[The Wise One]

Only 41  players have had multiple  bunt hits this season. Only one in 6 batters even have one bunt hit. There have been over 60,000 AB this year. Why didn't Molitor think about a no bunt sign? I would say statistically bunting on your own almost never happens. If it was a sac bunt called, and Molitor is throwing the player under the bus, shame on him. It doesn't seem like him to do that sort of thing (troll alert) but I could be wrong.  

[The Wise One]

 

I agree, but this kind of foolishness isn't infrequent.

Either brain farts are contagious and unpreventable, or the message has not gotten across that this stuff isn't tolerable.

Rosario gets demoted for a dumb steal attempt that Plouffe appears to have earlier gotten a free pass on. Buxton gets sent down to fix his technique while Dozier's approach is bordering on insubordination and Nunez bunts in a situation that likely would have seen Arcia DFA'd.

The vets are a huge problem, but the fact that they don't appear to be held accountable is a bigger problem. I know the Twins think they lack veteran leadership, but should the message really be: "As a young player you have no leash, but put your time in and you can get away with murder?"

Contracts and money. I hope more teams cut the Kemps and Crawford type players. Yes they are getting the money, but you take away the game. Dozier should sit if he is  insubordinate

[Pitz]

 

I'm not letting Molitor off the hook on this one, but I don't think any team in the majors has a "don't bunt" sign, or at least I've never heard of one.

 

This play made me fly into a rage. I was watching on TV and a little surprised I didn't hear them question it (although Bremer's voice sounded surprised, as if he couldn't quite believe it. It was gratifying to walk into the kitchen, where the game was on the radio, and hear Gladden blasting it. Bu

 

But if I was going to assign blame, it would be Nunez at 50%, Buxton at 40% and Molitor at 10%.

I didn't see the at bat, only via gameday. I'm curious why you would fault Buxton 40%?

[Seth Stohs]

 

I agree, but this kind of foolishness isn't infrequent.

Either brain farts are contagious and unpreventable, or the message has not gotten across that this stuff isn't tolerable.

Rosario gets demoted for a dumb steal attempt that Plouffe appears to have earlier gotten a free pass on. Buxton gets sent down to fix his technique while Dozier's approach is bordering on insubordination and Nunez bunts in a situation that likely would have seen Arcia DFA'd.

The vets are a huge problem, but the fact that they don't appear to be held accountable is a bigger problem. I know the Twins think they lack veteran leadership, but should the message really be: "As a young player you have no leash, but put your time in and you can get away with murder?"

 

Rosario wasn't demoted for one dumb steal attempt. It was much bigger than that, and the fact they had signed Grossman the day before, someone who actually takes pitches, was a bigger part of the equation to finally send down Rosario.

 

And yes, in baseball and in other walks of life, the veterans get (and usually have earned) a lot more equity, more ropes if you will, than the younger players. That's the same with every single MLB team. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'm really not sure what the consternation is here.  Nunez has done pretty well this season and he made a mistake.  That mistake likely didn't cost a game... It was just a mistake.  I agree Molitor needs to sit down with him, and he probably already has at this point as it's his job.  That said, I'm really not sure I understand the punitive side of this.  Should we bench our best hitter?  Send him down?  If it's a pattern, then yes, some response is warranted. Until then, I'm not getting worked up about it. 

[twinssouth]

This may be a dumb question, but am I the only guy that logs on after yet another loss snatched from the jaws of victory and expects some sort of roster or management change? Or at least a lineup change? I'm very confused as to what one actually has to do to be sent down, lose ones job, be replaced as a manager, etc.... there just seems to be an amazing lack of change for a team this bad.

 

 

 

You're not the only one, I log on to see expected changes but instead I see Ground hog day over and over. There's just no leadership on this team. It's like the players don't give a rip. This team needs a Hunter really bad.

[Seth Stohs]

 

The bunt and its exegesis are ways to question discipline, I think. Whether Molitor can run a crew. Whether a good manager would have a team with such poor judgment as to try to bunt when you're fourth in the league in batting average and you have the fastest man in baseball on base.

Such an argument might go what would TK or Joe Madden do etc etc

For my part I am not in a camp. Just surveying

 

 

Maybe I'm wrong... but in my mind this is on the player. It's not about discipline. It's about a guy wanting to do something to help his team get a run. It's not like Nunez has been a 'good' hitter for very long. He's always been the hitter that would be asked to bunt... like Escobar in the 7th inning. 

 

Maybe teams should have a "Don't Bunt" sign. I'd be shocked if any teams do. And again if he was bunting for a hit, I can't imagine any team would say he can't do that. With his speed, that's part of his game. 

 

 

[Seth Stohs]

 

You're not the only one, I log on to see expected changes but instead I see Ground hog day over and over. There's just no leadership on this team. It's like the players don't give a rip. This team needs a Hunter really bad.

 

Pretty sure Hunter being on the roster wouldn't have changed what happened in that situation. It wasn't about leadership. It was about a guy either over-thinking and trying to do too much, or a guy trying to get on base with a bunt hit to get a second runner on base. 

 

Mountain... Mole Hill...

[alarp33]

 

 

But if I was going to assign blame, it would be Nunez at 50%, Buxton at 40% and Molitor at 10%.

 

I wasn't watching at the time, but how exactly was this Buxton's fault?  Are we just at the point of blaming him for everything?

[Pitz]

 

I wasn't watching at the time, but how exactly was this Buxton's fault?  Are we just at the point of blaming him for everything?

I didn't want to include my sarcastic thoughts in my question about this, because I genuinely am interested to hear John's reasoning for assessing Buxton any blame. But here were a couple I was thinking of ... meant in the most lighthearted way:

 

'Buxton is 40% to blame because he didn't hit a triple. If he had stretched that hit to a triple like he's supposed to, Nunez wouldn't be bunting.'

 

'Buxton is 40% to blame because of his 40% K rate. He was due for a strikeout and his being on first caught Nunez by surprise.'

 

[USAFChief]

Not to speak for John, but I assume he thinks Buxton should have been running early in the count.

[alarp33]

 

Not to speak for John, but I assume he thinks Buxton should have been running early in the count.

 

That's my guess as well... I think Nunez bunted the 2nd pitch of the at bat... so we are assuming he missed a steal sign then? Because I for one don't want him running on the 1st pitch vs a reliever who's move he's probably never seen with the hottest hitter on the team up to bat.  

 

Even putting 1% blame on Buxton is absurd, unless the manager said he missed a steal sign

[Platoon]

I didn't post this because I wanted Nunez benched, Molitor fired, or so someone could think I didn't know there was more to Rosario going down than the steal. I made mention of the ongoing stupid baseball being played almost daily by this team. And the fact that while everyone would agree that proven veterans get more slack, this team is carrying it to an extreme. I really do not think most of the players on the team have a clue of where they stand or what management wants. Some players sit on the bench for failing to "go the other way" and some players are chiseled in the lineup in stone, who do not. Be aggressive, but don't get caught. One guy steals third, and a joke is made of his speed, and one guy gets humiliated by being benched in the middle of a game, and has a cab waiting for him. Trust me, the players are well aware of this. I would not be surprised if the three most used words between players are WTF. This team has lots of mediocre players, and youth. It should have a mediocre record like last year at the least. Not this! I am not dumb enough to to call for Molitors dismissal. It took 4 years for them to fire Gardy. And unless Pohlad tells Ryan, it's him, or him and you, it's going to take more than this year for Molitor to go.

[Pardon My Dinger]

I guess somebody doesn't recall the '89 ALCS. 

 

Jake Taylor of all people lays one down, same situation, Hayes takes off for home, caught them with their pants down. Simultaneously wins the series for the Tribe and resurrects Taylor's marriage. 

 

That's just some next-level strategy right there. 

[twinsnorth49]

 

I would guess every team in the majors has a standing "I'm the manager, I'll call the sac bunts" policy in place.

Or should.

This, there is no way players should be taking sacrifice bunts into their own hands. Ridiculous, manage the team FFS.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

But if I was going to assign blame, it would be Nunez at 50%, Buxton at 40% and Molitor at 10%.

Why are we trying to assign blame?  it was a Total System Failure, which we all know is no one's responsibility in particular.

[USAFChief]

 

 

 

Mountain... Mole Hill...

The problem is, there's so many mole hills it has the effect of a mountain.

 

Nobody-- NO BODY--thought this was a 16-40 team coming into the season.  It's a team short on talent, but nowhere near short enough to be this bad.  

 

So you start asking, "why?"

 

IMO, the talent shortage has been compounded, a zillion times over, through poor play.  Some of that is just...poor play.  Players not performing at the level they could reasonably have been projected to play at.

 

But some of it is, they are really bad at performing the intricate dance that is major league baseball.  Really, really bad. They run the bases poorly.  They miss cutoff men.  They have cutoff men out of position when they do hit them.  They have a catcher who can't throw out baserunners, but pitchers don't hold runners or even completely ignore them. You literally can't watch this team for more than a day without seeing some awful play. Awful.  A good portion of that is on the manager.

 

And the manager compounds his team's lack of talent by doing really questionable things, tactically.  He rests right hand hitters against LH pitchers, and vice versa, often on consecutive days.  Witness this weekend.  He seems to have zero sense of when to pull a pitcher, almost always waiting until the damage is done before someone makes a desultory trip out to the mound to gloomily ask for the ball.  He insists on wasting outs through sacrificing, even though playing for one run is almost always a bad idea, and it might be a historically bad idea with the bullpen he has.   Players that have seemingly no sense of what is, and isn't, a good idea tactically.  That's ALL on the manager.

 

So when I hear "it's nobody's fault, nothing to see here, move along" for the umpteenth time in a season at or near epic levels of terrible, I react with disbelief.  

 

How can somebody watch this team, day after day, and think the manager is doing a good job?

 

SOMEbody is to blame.  

 

Start with the guy in charge, and see if that helps.  That's what would be done in any. other. business.

 

Hell, it would be done on any. other. baseball. team.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Why are we trying to assign blame?  it was a Total System Failure, which we all know is no one's responsibility in particular.

 

That's why it was said, right? If everyone is to blame, then you can just say it was one of those fluky years, you can't fire everyone.......

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

It was about a guy either over-thinking and trying to do too much, or a guy trying to get on base with a bunt hit to get a second runner on base.

Huh?  Isn't this pretty clearly under-thinking and trying to do too little?  Whatever Nunez was thinking, he clearly wasn't assigning enough importance to the fact that it was only the 6th inning, that if Dozier didn't reach there would be an open base to walk our next best hitter in Mauer, etc.  That's under-thinking.

 

And even if he wanted to get a bunt hit, he could have advanced Buxton to second on a majority of ball in play outcomes, settling for that as a consolation prize on a bunt hit attempt is not very ambitious at all.  Barring a defensive error (and isn't Tampa noted as a good defensive team?), you eliminate all chance of Buxton advancing to third on that at-bat or even scoring, or Nunez himself advancing to scoring position.  Hence, trying to do too little.

 

Also, even if he was trying to bunt for a hit, he didn't catch anybody unaware.  He was thrown out rather easily.  It was a poor time to try that -- again, under-thinking and trying to do too little...

[Seth Stohs]

 

So when I hear "it's nobody's fault, nothing to see here, move along" for the umpteenth time in a season at or near epic levels of terrible, I react with disbelief.  

 

How can somebody watch this team, day after day, and think the manager is doing a good job?

 

SOMEbody is to blame.  

 

Start with the guy in charge, and see if that helps.  That's what would be done in any. other. business.

 

Hell, it would be done on any. other. baseball. team.

 

I didn't say the manager is doing a good job. The subject of this particular forum thread is the 6th inning bunt, and in that one situation, I see nothing to fault the manager on. Like I wrote, plenty of other things to question, but i don't think this is one of them.

[Otto von Ballpark]

This happened in the second game of the season in Baltimore too.  A little more extreme there -- Buxton was already on second base and it was only the 3rd inning -- but again, our leadoff hitter (Dozier) bunted early in the count, the defense was not surprised, and he was thrown out rather easily.

 

Molitor has clearly set a culture where advancing the runner is rewarded too highly, if hitters are pursuing a questionable low-upside strategy in pursuit of it.