Terry Ryan- I am not a fan

[DaveW]

 

Is there a deep scratch in this record? Seems like I've heard all this before. Really isn't it time to move on?
.

Feel free to ignore the thread? Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean other people can't discuss it.

[jazzagechoir]

Don't think there's anything trolling or disrespectful about sharing an opinion. I think OP and this thread in general has been totally within bounds.

[glunn]

 

Feel free to ignore the thread? Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean other people can't discuss it.

Moderator note -- Dave is correct.  If you find a thread to be repetitive or don't like an entire thread, then please do not post there.  Please also keep in mind that the most effective response to trolling is to not dignify it with a response.

 

[twins_89]

It's time for the Twins to move on from Terry Ryan. In the years he's been general manager (I think it's been 18 years in his two stints) the team has won a total of 6 playoff games and 1 playoff series. His conservative approach just doesn't result in teams that are competitive in the post season (which the Twins have only reached 4 times in Ryan's tenure). I'd really like to see an overhaul of the front office to bring in someone from outside the organization who is willing to at least occasionally be aggressive with spending and uses a more modern approach that is not a decade behind on analytics.

[The Wise One]

 

All I continue to hear from the pro Ryan crowd is excuse after excuse:

"Oh well nobody wanted Plouffe"
"Ryan didnt sign any real RP because we have young guys in the minors"

Etc

Ryan gets a solid D+ from me since he has been back, and a big fat F for this off season. Hopefully the farm system that Bill Smith helped build can bail him out (Sano, etc)

All I hear out of the anti Ryan crowd is of making trades that have no comparable base in reality and calling for free agent signings of players that do not exist. Excuses versus figments of imagination. Wow, what a choice

[The Wise One]

 

If Park is only as good as Collabello then that is not a good signing. I agree that comparing Nishi to Park is irrelevant for the most part though.

Again, I think Park ends up being solid, just wish they didn't have to put Sano in OF to accommodate him.

Collabello had an OPS+ of 142 last year. If that is not good enough for you, what number is? Only 15 home runs. I guess as a half time player that was far too paltry of a number

[The Wise One]

 

I just wish they would have brought him back at that point as "interim GM" with the expectation that he handed it over in a year or two (at that point he can become "president of baseball operations" or some other high up title/something they could create)

 

I'm just not sure Ryan thinks he has anything else left to prove, he has had a good long career, is well respected etc.

 

I just want my GM's to be a little more hungry, look at Speilman and Fletcher, both have made some tough decisions because they know their job is not guaranteed and both are early enough along in their careers where they want to win a championship/continue to grow. When your job is pretty much guaranteed as long as you want it, then it's hard to make some bold/tough choices IMO, I think that is part of the issue with Ryan....essentially there will never be a hot seat for him when it comes to his bosses.

Spielman has been in charge since 06. No Superbowl wins. By many of the posters, shouldn't he be fired by now?  Fletcher been there since 09. No Stanley Cups. not even close.

Bold tough choices? I see nothing that is bold or tough. Moving up or down and trading draft picks is something that Ryan can't do. Salary cap sports team offer a different scenario than baseball. Completely different rules. Football contracts are not guaranteed   Nolasco would have been cut if he were a football player.

In the end you can argue outcomes.  So what is the big deal about undefined bold moves when the outcome for these moves is really no different. than what Ryan did before he retired the first time.

[DaveW]

Collabello had an OPS+ of 142 last year. If that is not good enough for you, what number is? Only 15 home runs. I guess as a half time player that was far too paltry of a number

Color me skeptical that he can duplicate those numbers again....

[DaveW]

Spielman has been in charge since 06. No Superbowl wins. By many of the posters, shouldn't he be fired by now? Fletcher been there since 09. No Stanley Cups. not even close.

Bold tough choices? I see nothing that is bold or tough. Moving up or down and trading draft picks is something that Ryan can't do. Salary cap sports team offer a different scenario than baseball. Completely different rules. Football contracts are not guaranteed Nolasco would have been cut if he were a football player.

In the end you can argue outcomes. So what is the big deal about undefined bold moves when the outcome for these moves is really no different. than what Ryan did before he retired the first time.

Spielman has gotten a lot closer than Ryan to winning it all, and Fletcher has actually won some playoff series in his time and made some high impact signings and trades to better the team. Also fletcher will be very much on the hot seat if they miss the playoffs this year, that's what happens when you have an owner who actually wants to win!

[alarp33]

 

Spielman has gotten a lot closer than Ryan to winning it all, and Fletcher has actually won some playoff series in his time and made some high impact signings and trades to better the team.

 

And if Fletcher doesn't get to the playoffs this season, he's probably going to be out of work. If Spielman hadn't found a competent QB 2 years ago, he would've been out work.  Terry Ryan has been given a lifetime contract. 

[DaveW]

 

And if Fletcher doesn't get to the playoffs this season, he's probably going to be out of work. If Spielman hadn't found a competent QB 2 years ago, he would've been out work.  Terry Ryan has been given a lifetime contract. 

Yeah I edited the comment to mention that in regards to Fletcher.

[brvama]

Feel free to ignore the thread? Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean other people can't discuss it.

Dave, no where in my statement did I say I disagreed with what's been said, nor it can't be discussed. My point was that so much of this discussion has been hashed over before. Repeating the same talking points, pro/con, will not change minds nor enhance the discussion.

 

Some of the discussion here has been interesting, but to wade thru all the repeat arguments gets really tiresome. It reminds of when my wife reminds me every other month that I forgot flowers on Valentine's Day 25 years ago.

[DaveW]

 

Dave, no where in my statement did I say I disagreed with what's been said, nor it can't be discussed. My point was that so much of this discussion has been hashed over before. Repeating the same talking points, pro/con, will not change minds nor enhance the discussion.

Some of the discussion here has been interesting, but to wade thru all the repeat arguments gets really tiresome. It reminds of when my wife reminds me every other month that I forgot flowers on Valentine's Day 25 years ago.

Your whole statement was about the unworthiness of this thread/discussion. Again if you think it's not worth while, then feel free to ignore the thread, several other posters here (including new ones) seem to think the discussion topic is just fine. Just stop derailing it.

[Kwak]

This thread reminds me of a TV commercial that's currently running:  Guy (TD poster):  he isn't a very good magician [GM]  Woman  (Pohlad):  No, but he paid my claims (dividend check) in a day!  Guy:  WHAT?!  

So I guess it boils down to the definition of "winning".

 

[Comrade Bork]

All I hear out of the anti Ryan crowd is of making trades that have no comparable base in reality and calling for free agent signings of players that do not exist. Excuses versus figments of imagination. Wow, what a choice

Most sensible thing in this whole thread.

[Squirrel]

Okay everyone ... just stop. Really. If you don't like a subject, then don't post on it. Seriously. Yes, we've heard many of these arguments before rehashed time and time and time and time again ... so what? Skip over it. Until things start happening on the day to day basis at ST and when the season starts, there just isn't much to talk about. However, that said, despite what posters have said, this thread has NOT been respectful. In four pages we've had several posts removed and three moderator/owner warnings ... this makes a fourth. If you can't make your points without calling someone an idiot or moron or whatever, then they aren't points worthy to make.

 

But for those who want to discuss this yet again, and bring the same arguments pro/con, again ... sorry to say, but you are going to get a few who are just tired of it. As much as you are asking for them to ignore the thread, you would be wise to ignore their comments, too. You don't need to respond and turn this into a bicker-fest.

 

One more warning, one more stray from topic, one more disrespectful comment from anyone, and the thread is done.

[Andrew]

I hate to say this but I'm hoping that a 3B in some organization(not ours) underperforms/ gets injured(feel bad for saying it) and Plouffe plays great in spring training and becomes a very interesting player to trade for, because this Sano to OF experiment shows no positive evidence, only negative evidence. It's just not going to work.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

However, that said, despite what posters have said, this thread has NOT been respectful. In four pages we've had several posts removed and three moderator/owner warnings ... this makes a fourth. If you can't make your points without calling someone an idiot or moron or whatever, then they aren't points worthy to make.

Yep, this. We've had multiple personal insults, name-calling, gross oversimplification of opposing viewpoints, poorly-constructed arguments... We've pretty much run the gamut in this thread.

 

Twins Daily is not Twitter. It is not the Strib comments section. We expect civility and mature discourse. The problem isn't the negativity, it's the way arguments have been framed.

 

If you don't like it, feel free to migrate over to one of the aforementioned sites. We expect better on Twins Daily. It's not a high bar to set but unfortunately, it's a bar rarely reached in internet discussion.

 

There are plenty of places on the internet to argue like a bunch of five year olds. This isn't one of them.

[Mike Sixel]

I am not a huge fan of TR the closer.......he seems to build well, but in his last iteration, he, imo, did not close the deal by signing FAs or trading minor leaguers for veterans that could close holes.

 

IF baseball is cyclical, and they were fated to stink after their run, that is 100% an argument FOR trading prospects at that point....since those prospects won't be part of a winner anyway.......

 

Having Becker and Tyner as your DH, on a championship potential team, was not, imo, acceptable.

 

So, I like Terry to build the team, I am not sure I like him to take it to the next level or not. We'll see.

[DaveW]

 

I hate to say this but I'm hoping that a 3B in some organization(not ours) underperforms/ gets injured(feel bad for saying it) and Plouffe plays great in spring training and becomes a very interesting player to trade for, because this Sano to OF experiment shows no positive evidence, only negative evidence. It's just not going to work.

Agreed 100% on this. Hopefully that is the case. Hell, I wonder if Boston is already starting to worry about Fat Panda at 3rd?

 

As far as a return for Plouffe goes: I have said it before and will say it again, I would like them to  get back a couple high upside lottery ticket types in return, a low level catching prospect would be nice as well, but at this stage, I would take some prospects back for him in a heartbeat.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

So, I like Terry to build the team, I am not sure I like him to take it to the next level or not. We'll see.

This is pretty much how I feel about it. I thought this offseason was the time to shore up some holes and while Ryan did that, he didn't do a great job of it. I'm not sure he's wired in the right way to build a championship team. I like his approach during a rebuild but when it comes time to pick up that final piece and go deep into the postseason, his conservative nature bites him in the ass.

 

But maybe he's right. Maybe the bullpen will fix itself internally... But I'm skeptical, to say the least.

[Squirrel]

 

I am not a huge fan of TR the closer.......he seems to build well, but in his last iteration, he, imo, did not close the deal by signing FAs or trading minor leaguers for veterans that could close holes.

 

IF baseball is cyclical, and they were fated to stink after their run, that is 100% an argument FOR trading prospects at that point....since those prospects won't be part of a winner anyway.......

 

Having Becker and Tyner as your DH, on a championship potential team, was not, imo, acceptable.

 

So, I like Terry to build the team, I am not sure I like him to take it to the next level or not. We'll see.

You know, this is an interesting thought. With all the 'specialization' in baseball, maybe there needs to be co-GM's ... one who focuses on building, one who focuses on closing. Maybe restructuring how the GM works, or the FO in general, maybe this is something to consider. I guess, though, in a traditional business model sense, this might be complicated as there does need to be someone at the top.

[Dr. Evil]

IMHO, it comes down to a very thoughtful reply to a comment I put in another thread by another poster. He/She made a comment on my roster projections saying that he/she felt my idea would be "poor asset management." I didn't agree or disagree. But, that comment "asset management" really made sense to me and I'm glad that person said it. I think that's what it really comes down to when people are discussing the management of the Twins.  

 

I have never been a GM of any team and would likely be horrible because I make too many rash decisions. But, my opinion from the outside looking in, is that sometimes the Twins are run from mostly an asset management perspective. I feel like they could stand to step outside of that framework and be more proactive at times in constructing a current roster. To put it another way, little more current picture thinking and a little less big picture thinking.

 

Sometimes I feel like people get the impression that everything is big picture and some really want a "roll up your sleeves and aggressively tweak the current roster approach."  We don't seem to see much of that IMHO.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You know, this is an interesting thought. With all the 'specialization' in baseball, maybe there needs to be co-GM's ... one who focuses on building, one who focuses on closing. Maybe restructuring how the GM works, or the FO in general, maybe this is something to consider. I guess, though, in a traditional business model sense, this might be complicated as there does need to be someone at the top.

Well, some teams have started restructuring their front office model and it will be interesting to see how it plays out in time. Guys like Epstein and Beane are no longer General Managers, they're now Presidents but still appear to have a hand in how the baseball team is run on a daily basis.

 

In the traditional model, the President is a DSP type of guy who is more involved at an executive business level than a baseball level.

[Mike Sixel]

 

You know, this is an interesting thought. With all the 'specialization' in baseball, maybe there needs to be co-GM's ... one who focuses on building, one who focuses on closing. Maybe restructuring how the GM works, or the FO in general, maybe this is something to consider. I guess, though, in a traditional business model sense, this might be complicated as there does need to be someone at the top.

 

Entrepreneurs generally are not good at running a business, and Ops people usually are not good at building new stuff. Maybe this is the same? I had not thought about it that way.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Well, some teams have started restructuring their front office model and it will be interesting to see how it plays out in time. Guys like Epstein and Beane are no longer General Managers, they're now Presidents but still appear to have a hand in how the baseball team is run on a daily basis.

 

In the traditional model, the President is a DSP type of guy who is more involved at an executive business level than a baseball level.

 

Title inflation......nothing more to see there.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Title inflation......nothing more to see there.

I think it's a bit more complex than that, as I don't believe Hoyer is an empty chair with Epstein playing puppeteer. I don't know who gets final say over what but I think Hoyer has a voice in the organization.

[bird]

 

Short answer: Yes, yes, yes.

 

Long answer: Yes.

 

1. SSS no doubt, but Sano had above average advanced stats defensively at 3rd base last year (see: Fangraphs), he also passed the eye test and nearly every scouting report out over the past couple years has said he should be able to stick at 3B for at least a couple years.

 

2. Sano has never played the OF, his skillset/body/etc doesn't look to transition there. Sano has played 3B for several years in the Twins org if they truly viewed him as a OF they likely would have played him there in the minors.

 

3. Why not actually give him a shot at 3B now? Guy is gonna hit .900+ OPS either way, at least put him at the position where he is comfortable, more than likely he is the Twins best player in 2016 and several years after (him or Buxton) Why do we have to move his ass around so much to accommodate average (Plouffe) and complete unknowns (Park)?

 

If you said, Plouffe at 3B for the first half of 2016 and Sano at DH, I could have lived with it, but then to force him into the OF (and then trade one of your best fielding OF for a backup catcher to boot?) What is going on?

 

 

I get this. I've now had a lot of practice with all of these points. I think some of what you say is not entirely accurate, is maybe slightly overstated, or oversimplified here. For example, the motivation to transition Sano, at least temporarily, isn't about "accommodating Plouffe" per se.  It's just part of it. Also, Plouffe is better than "average" in the minds of many.  Molitor appears to like Plouffe, although getting a fair return may have entered into retaining him, or not, who knows? Murphy's capabilities are understated intentionally by you by using the label "backup catcher". Hicks has liabilities that arguably offset whatever defensive value he has, and no one living in the real world believes Buxton will be a drop off. Using Fangraphs data is utterly laughable for Sano's defense at 3B, so it's a good thing you cited scouting reports, although you ignored the most credible and relevant opinion, which is that of the Twins. And the Twins have the most credible and relevant opinion on the Sano move to the OF. There's a long history of athletic players making a rather seamless transition to OF. The Twins haven't promised it to be seamless BTW, just doable for him. And Park is a complete unknown. To you. But not to the Twins.

 

You may be right, and you may be wrong, about a bunch of these things, Dave. Your conviction level about it certainly shatters the conviction meter. I doubt that any of the many people on the Twins field staff who weighed in on the Sano decision have nearly as high of a conviction level about it. Let's see how it plays out, it should be entertaining!

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think it's a bit more complex than that, as I don't believe Hoyer is an empty chair with Epstein playing puppeteer. I don't know who gets final say over what but I think Hoyer has a voice in the organization.

 

Fair.

[bird]

 

 It reminds of when my wife reminds me every other month that I forgot flowers on Valentine's Day 25 years ago.

 

Crap. She has two husbands.