Terry Ryan- I am not a fan

[DaveW]

All I continue to hear from the pro Ryan crowd is excuse after excuse:

 

"Oh well nobody wanted Plouffe"

"Ryan didnt sign any real RP because we have young guys in the minors"

 

Etc

 

Ryan gets a solid D+ from me since he has been back, and a big fat F for this off season. Hopefully the farm system that Bill Smith helped build can bail him out (Sano, etc)

[Foghorn Leghorn]

 

All I continue to hear from the pro Ryan crowd is excuse after excuse:

"Oh well nobody wanted Plouffe"
"Ryan didnt sign any real RP because we have young guys in the minors"

Etc

Ryan gets a solid D+ from me since he has been back, and a big fat F for this off season. Hopefully the farm system that Bill Smith helped build can bail him out (Sano, etc)

Great post!! 

[DaveW]

Great post!!

Also should be noted that with the money they are spending on: Nolasco, Hughes and Milone in 2016, they easily could have gotten a Cueto type pitcher instead and had room for May or someone in the rotation.

 

Stop signing mediocrity! Sign impact players!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

 

Also should be noted that with the money they are spending on: Nolasco, Hughes and Milone in 2016, they easily could have gotten a Cueto type pitcher instead and had room for May or someone in the rotation.

Stop signing mediocrity! Sign impact players!

If only. It will not happen, instead we will sign Park (lol) just awful

[DaveW]

If only. It will not happen, instead we will sign Park (lol) just awful

I think Park will be decent, and I don't mind the signing, I just hate that it was the only real signing that helps the twins in 2016. (Murphy for Hicks will be a wash at best imo, and a disaster at worst)

 

If Ryan could have traded plouffe suddenly the signing is pretty good

[Foghorn Leghorn]

 

I think Park will be decent, and I don't mind the signing, I just hate that it was the only real signing that helps the twins in 2016. (Murphy for Hicks will be a wash at best imo, and a disaster at worst)

If Ryan could have traded plouffe suddenly the signing is pretty good

Park will not be good, mark my words.

[Thrylos]

 

I haven't given up on Meyer but you know that's not who I'm talking about.

 

Love the kid's determination, ranked him number 1 in my prospect list, but his results are much better than his stuff, and this concerns me a bit long term, unlike Meyer whose stuff is better than his results...

[Brock Beauchamp]

Love the kid's determination, ranked him number 1 in my prospect list, but his results are much better than his stuff, and this concerns me a bit long term, unlike Meyer whose stuff is better than his results...

I don't disagree.

[Jham]

So I really don't why there are still Nishioka/Park comparisons. How on earth are those comparable players?  If we're looking at independent leaguers turned prospects at an advanced age, Collabello would probably be a much better comparison. Collabello is a serviceable piece on an MLB squad, but he was not a 50HR guy in the independent leagues or minors, although he was very good.  I would expect Park to be at least that good...

Speculation regarding trading Plouffe makes no sense.  We don't know what was offered, and IMO, it's not like trading him automatically makes us better, and it might make us worse.  Did nobody notice the league adjusting to Sano and him crashing back down to earth late last season?  He started out at Miguel Cabrera level, but ended up at sort of Adam Dunn territory.  The amount of banking we are doing on a young young player with much to prove is unrealistic and unfair for Sano.  He failed to lose the weight the team wanted, he fired his agent and hired Jay Z...  I'm less than convinced that we don't need a variety of options going into the season.  It's not like we can't move someone once the season starts.  If the trade deadline passes, and Plouffe is still seen as an impediment, then it's time to get upset.  But for all the Sano in right question marks, scouts had just as many Sano at third question marks last year.

Regarding stud pitchers, I like how the Royals trade for big arms.  Yes, they have to trade prospects, but they avoid the big long-term contracts that teams like the Royals and Twins can't or more accurately refuse to pay for pitching.  If you want the Twins to get a stud pitcher, it won't be in FA, so be prepared to give up some farm.

[Brock Beauchamp]

So I really don't why there are still Nishioka/Park comparisons.

Because Americans think Asia is a country. Probably a small one but I'm not really sure. On my map, that area simply reads "Here Be Dragons".

[DaveW]

If Park is only as good as Collabello then that is not a good signing. I agree that comparing Nishi to Park is irrelevant for the most part though.

 

Again, I think Park ends up being solid, just wish they didn't have to put Sano in OF to accommodate him.

[TheLeviathan]

Damn look at this thread go!  9 pages by midnight - over or under?

[spinowner]

Terry Ryan-I am a fan. The Twins and their minor league system are much improved since he resumed control.

There. I've made the counterargument with just as much backing evidence as the OP, probably more.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Okay, I'm heading this off at the pass. The next person that even approaches the line gets a warning point and I'm locking the thread.

 

Tread carefully.

[Platoon]

Damn look at this thread go!  9 pages by midnight - over or under?

Under! I am tired!

[Jham]

 

If Park is only as good as Collabello then that is not a good signing. I agree that comparing Nishi to Park is irrelevant for the most part though.

Again, I think Park ends up being solid, just wish they didn't have to put Sano in OF to accommodate him.

 

I agree that a 4 year signing for Collabello would be a bad outcome, still not a bad signing in my mind, as sluggers with Park's power don't come along often or cheaply.  If he turns out, we come out ahead huge, if not, we paid him 1/3rd as much as Nolasco, and should get at very least a better version of Collabello.  

 

[DaveW]

Okay, I'm heading this off at the pass. The next person that even approaches the line gets a warning point and I'm locking the thread.

 

Tread carefully.

People are being fine for the most part, no need to lock the thread just because it isn't a "positive" one....

[USAFChief]

One opinion: bringing Ryan back to stabilize the franchise was probably a good move. Familiar, respected, experienced. Certainly not intimidated by the task at hand.

 

But I think there's reason to believe it should have been a temporary thing. One or two years, get the thing back on track, while finding a long term answer from outside the organization, a new voice with fresh perspective.

 

Obviously I'm observing from a distance, but in my experience, looking backward rarely moves an organization forward. And that's what it feels like to me at this point...looking backward. The Smith decision didnt work out, theres a bit of panic, and the safe, comfortable move is to try to return to past success.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

 

People are being fine for the most part, no need to lock the thread just because it isn't a "positive" one....

cant even have a negative conversation or it is considered "trolling"

[Brock Beauchamp]

cant even have a negative conversation or it is considered "trolling"

Negativity has nothing to do with it. Or maybe you missed all the negative threads that aren't locked on this forum.

 

Support your arguments, avoid the "lol this guy sucks" posts and your threads will not be in danger of being locked.

 

It's not hard. Basically, act and debate like an adult and you'll be fine.

[DaveW]

 

I agree that a 4 year signing for Collabello would be a bad outcome, still not a bad signing in my mind, as sluggers with Park's power don't come along often or cheaply.  If he turns out, we come out ahead huge, if not, we paid him 1/3rd as much as Nolasco, and should get at very least a better version of Collabello.  

 

I do overall like the signing, I think the risk/reward is more than worth it. Just for me the issue is they seemed to do it without really thinking things through, cause now we have a lot of 1B/DH (and 3B) types suddenly. If only Park were able to play a decent RF/LF this would be a fantastic signing (but then of course the cost would have been higher)

Hopefully Park can end up a 30 HR type guy with a .850 OPS or so, you can always find at bats for a bat like that (or he suddenly becomes a real nice trade chip if suddenly Mauer comes back to form, Sano holds down 3B and Vargas or Acria becomes legit...or one of those last two become nice trade chips)

[DaveW]

 

 

One opinion: bringing Ryan back to stabilize the franchise was probably a good move. Familiar, respected, experienced. Certainly not intimidated by the task at hand.
 

I just wish they would have brought him back at that point as "interim GM" with the expectation that he handed it over in a year or two (at that point he can become "president of baseball operations" or some other high up title/something they could create)

 

I'm just not sure Ryan thinks he has anything else left to prove, he has had a good long career, is well respected etc.

 

I just want my GM's to be a little more hungry, look at Speilman and Fletcher, both have made some tough decisions because they know their job is not guaranteed and both are early enough along in their careers where they want to win a championship/continue to grow. When your job is pretty much guaranteed as long as you want it, then it's hard to make some bold/tough choices IMO, I think that is part of the issue with Ryan....essentially there will never be a hot seat for him when it comes to his bosses.

[bird]

 

Honest question, do you think Ryan even tried? Willing to bet he did not

Why does it matter? Plouffe is much more valuable to the Twins right now than he is to any other team. He's pretty productive.

 

Specifically, what did you expect the hypothetical return to be had Plouffe been traded? 

 

Again, the answer to your honest question is that the return would have had less value to the Twins than Plouffe does.

[bird]

 

Because Americans think Asia is a country. Probably a small one but I'm not really sure. On my map, that area simply reads "Here Be Dragons".

 

 

Haha. Thinking the first question Sid will ask Park: "Are you and the other guy, Nitchysomething, close personal friends?"

[DaveW]

 

 Plouffe is much more valuable to the Twins right now than he is to any other team.

That is debatable at the very least, as the Twins have a guy who more than likely would be more valuable overall at 3B and be 6 million cheaper as well.
 

Plouffe would have value at 3B for plenty of teams, who knows, maybe Pablo slips on a banana  peel and from his latest double decker banana split and spends the season on the DL, Plouffe suddenly looks pretty valuable to the BoSox at that point (and then Sano can move back to third)

[bird]

 

That is debatable at the very least, as the Twins have a guy who more than likely would be more valuable overall at 3B and be 6 million cheaper as well.
 

Plouffe would have value at 3B for plenty of teams, who knows, maybe Pablo slips on a banana  peel and from his latest double decker banana split and spends the season on the DL, Plouffe suddenly looks pretty valuable to the BoSox at that point (and then Sano can move back to third)

 

 

You're now talking about what his future value might be, which supports my belief that holding on to him this off-season was debatably a good decision, given the circumstantial evidence (the Frazier return, Freeze still unsigned, etc.) I think the Twins will get a better return for him at some point in the future than they would have gotten this winter. And he's not preventing Sano from adding his value. You're also seemingly quite confident that Sano would not be a liability at 3B, but will undoubtedly be a liability in the OF, no? 

[drjim]

 

One opinion: bringing Ryan back to stabilize the franchise was probably a good move. Familiar, respected, experienced. Certainly not intimidated by the task at hand.

But I think there's reason to believe it should have been a temporary thing. One or two years, get the thing back on track, while finding a long term answer from outside the organization, a new voice with fresh perspective.

Obviously I'm observing from a distance, but in my experience, looking backward rarely moves an organization forward. And that's what it feels like to me at this point...looking backward. The Smith decision didnt work out, theres a bit of panic, and the safe, comfortable move is to try to return to past success.

 

I think this is fair. I do think the franchise probably needed three years to fully stabilize. I do think if there had been less improvement last year Ryan wouldn't be the GM anymore.

 

I would love to see another step forward this season and then have him kicked up to President of Baseball Ops with a new GM from outside the org brought in. Not an especially likely scenario unfortunately.

[brvama]

Is there a deep scratch in this record? Seems like I've heard all this before. Really isn't it time to move on?

.

[glunn]

 

Support your arguments, avoid the "lol this guy sucks" posts and your threads will not be in danger of being locked.

It's not hard. Basically, act and debate like an adult and you'll be fine.

 

Moderator note -- I just read this thread and am troubled by the level of trolling.  

 

If you want to take a position then you must support the position and be civil to those who disagree.  If you cannot do that then your posting privileges will be suspended.

[DaveW]

 

 You're also seemingly quite confident that Sano would not be a liability at 3B, but will undoubtedly be a liability in the OF, no? 

Short answer: Yes, yes, yes.

 

Long answer: Yes.

 

1. SSS no doubt, but Sano had above average advanced stats defensively at 3rd base last year (see: Fangraphs), he also passed the eye test and nearly every scouting report out over the past couple years has said he should be able to stick at 3B for at least a couple years.

 

2. Sano has never played the OF, his skillset/body/etc doesn't look to transition there. Sano has played 3B for several years in the Twins org if they truly viewed him as a OF they likely would have played him there in the minors.

 

3. Why not actually give him a shot at 3B now? Guy is gonna hit .900+ OPS either way, at least put him at the position where he is comfortable, more than likely he is the Twins best player in 2016 and several years after (him or Buxton) Why do we have to move his ass around so much to accommodate average (Plouffe) and complete unknowns (Park)?

 

If you said, Plouffe at 3B for the first half of 2016 and Sano at DH, I could have lived with it, but then to force him into the OF (and then trade one of your best fielding OF for a backup catcher to boot?) What is going on?