La Velle: Sano Lost 5 Pounds This Offseason

[laloesch]

 

I would note that for all we know, Sano has converted some of his fat into muscle.  Maybe he lost 5 pounds of fat and converted another 5 pounds into muscle.

 

Rolls eyes.  Not likely given how much weight he's gained since joining the Twins. 

[Bob Sacamento]

 

In order to concentrate on outfield position drills which are much valuable than game experience.

Said no one ever, you can do drills til the cows come home but it still doesn't make up for lack of game experience.  He was pulled so he could work on his "conditioning" which it looks like he did. 

 

Former Twins 1B coach and outfield instructor on simulating game conditions as much as possible

 

 “To me, that is the ultimate tool for an outfielder to try to improve,” Ullger said. “You can take as many fungoes as you want. Fungoes will allow you to work on your footwork, but as far as working on taking a good first step and taking the proper route to the ball, it’s working off the [hitter's] bat.

[tobi0040]

 

I recall Sano was an "error-machine" at 3B as he progressed through the system, but [his fans] would remind all that this was a "new position", or "he's young", or "these are minor league fields" (and that his teammates are minor league players)--so he "will be 'fine' at 3B when he reaches the Twins".  Combine this with Ryan's statement concerning Plouffe "not being offered"--and it's more than reasonable to conclude that the Twins (shall I say) were not "whelmed" by Sano's defense at 3B.  But let's be blunt:  Sano was not signed for his defensive prowess (at any position) but for his hitting and especially power hitting. The present plan is to "get all of the bats in the line-up" by shifting people around.  

 

But this begs the question.  If Plouffe is in the lineup in place of a LF bat, how much value is his bat?

 

Arcia has a higher career OPS than Plouffe.  Nori Aoki and Alejandro De Aza have effectively the same career OPS as Plouffe and signed for 1 year and $5M this off-season.  These aren't difference making LF by any stretch.

 

It seems to me either they concluded Sano would be a disaster at 3B or they are too stubborn to take what they feel is below market value for Plouffe.

 

If Sano can play 3B, I would go as far as saying Plouffe on the roster is not adding a ton of value.  Even a good reliever would be worth more to the 2016-2018 Twins.

[TheLeviathan]

If this is because they think he can't hack third, the easy response is "why change him now?"  

 

Especially since they were vocally supportive of the fact that he could play the position last year.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

If this is because they think he can't hack third, the easy response is "why change him now?"  

 

Especially since they were vocally supportive of the fact that he could play the position last year.

My guess is that Sano was, and still is, viewed as a fallback option at 3B.  They didn't necessarily want him starting every day there, but if Plouffe was unavailable they would do it, and in that scenario they'd want Sano as comfortable and prepared to do it as possible.  Hence the exclusive reps there in the minors.

 

With DH wide open for Sano, this made some sense -- until they signed Park, which is now forcing Sano to a position where he is not likely to be comfortable or prepared soon.  I maintain the Park signing is the weirdest part of this whole affair, and unfortunately probably adds some expectations to Park above what his age/contract/history dictate.

[TheLeviathan]

I agree, I don't think this is about "Sano can't play third", it's more likely "We wanted this guy (Park) and to keep this guy (Plouffe), so what do we do with Sano?"

 

I just wish it wasn't our monster young hitter we decided to shuffle around.

[tobi0040]

 

I maintain the Park signing is the weirdest part of this whole affair, and unfortunately probably adds some expectations to Park above what his age/contract/history dictate.

 

I agree.  And here is a trend year in and year out.  Terry goes out and tries finding guys in the dumpster that are now well past their prime and offers them minor league deals, or submits international bids he does not expect to win.  In most cases, they offer no value to the team relative to what we already have but he literally can't help himself from playing the game.  It would be like me going on ebay and just start bidding on random things I don't need becase it is fun.

 

Park is going to be 30 and has pretty high k numbers against weaker pitching.  The odds of this guy providing a better bat relative to Mauer, Arcia, Vargas, or what we could find on the FA market is extremely low in my opinion.  But now we have him for four years.

 

Then you have Kubel, Bartlett, Marquis, Pelfrey, Pontoon (Ponson), Harden, Quintin, literally five relievers every off-season.  With five minutes of research I am sure this list could triple.

 

How many more of these do we need to fail before we switch strategies?

 

 

 

[alhweiner]

Said no one ever, you can do drills til the cows come home but it still doesn't make up for lack of game experience.  He was pulled so he could work on his "conditioning" which it looks like he did. 

 

Former Twins 1B coach and outfield instructor on simulating game conditions as much as possible

 

 “To me, that is the ultimate tool for an outfielder to try to improve,” Ullger said. “You can take as many fungoes as you want. Fungoes will allow you to work on your footwork, but as far as working on taking a good first step and taking the proper route to the ball, it’s working off the [hitter's] bat.

That may be true for "refining" skills, but if you are LEARNING A NEW POSITION, and you bypass fundamentals (first-step; blocking; dive-or-block decision; drop-step ball-side-foot; pursuit angles; footwork; wall-balls) to play games waiting for one or two random fly balls per game, your learning will get flat-lined. That is EXACTLY the same in learning ANY SPORT. What coach recommends bypassing practice when learning a new sport, position or skill? Find me THAT recommendation!

[alhweiner]

Former Twins 1B coach and outfield instructor on simulating game conditions as much as possible

 

 “To me, that is the ultimate tool for an outfielder to try to improve,” Ullger said. “You can take as many fungoes as you want. Fungoes will allow you to work on your footwork, but as far as working on taking a good first step and taking the proper route to the ball, it’s working off the [hitter's] bat.

Ullger is NOT talking about playing in games. He is talking about SIMULATING GAME CONDITIONS" in practice, by taking fly-balls in batting practice "off the [hitter's] bat", rather than off a coach's fungo.

[Winston Smith]

I wonder if La Velle gave Sano tips on the best places to eat during spring training?

[Halsey Hall]

 

But this begs the question.  If Plouffe is in the lineup in place of a LF bat, how much value is his bat?

 

Arcia has a higher career OPS than Plouffe.  Nori Aoki and Alejandro De Aza have effectively the same career OPS as Plouffe and signed for 1 year and $5M this off-season.  These aren't difference making LF by any stretch.

 

It seems to me either they concluded Sano would be a disaster at 3B or they are too stubborn to take what they feel is below market value for Plouffe.

 

If Sano can play 3B, I would go as far as saying Plouffe on the roster is not adding a ton of value.  Even a good reliever would be worth more to the 2016-2018 Twins.

I think it's they are to stubborn to take what they feel is below market value for so @ so.  Sano is better right now than our current 3rd sacker was when he started.  And our current is one step and done.  I just don't get it.  Our outfield is going to be a huge mess. 

[Oxtung]

Plouffe has two seasons left of arbitration and there are no prospects in the system that will be ready in that time frame. Frankly I think an argument could be made there are no prospects in the system right now.

 

If Sano can't play 3rd anymore the Twins would have either signed Plouffe to an extension, this is the last offseason this could happen, or they would have made a trade to bring in a young guy like they did at catcher. There are several guys that appear to be blocked in their current organizations like Jeimer Candelario of the Cubs who finished last season at AA and certainly isn't going to unseat Bryant.

 

As has been said many times before Ryan is very conservative and isn't comfortable without a long term plan in place. Just look at catcher, as soon as it was determined Pinto wasn't the answer he went out and got John Ryan Murphy.

 

So when we see a move to shore up 3rd base then we will know the Twins no longer believe Sano is viable there anymore.

[tobi0040]

 

As has been said many times before Ryan is very conservative and isn't comfortable without a long term plan in place. Just look at catcher, as soon as it was determined Pinto wasn't the answer he went out and got John Ryan Murphy.

 

 

I would argue the Twins knew at least two years ago Pinto was not the answer and they have not had a plan in place there since about two years prior to when it was clear Mauer's days catching were limited.

 

I would also argue Terry has gone years without a long term answer at SS, 3B, and 2B. 

[Oxtung]

 

I would argue the Twins knew at least two years ago Pinto was not the answer and they have not had a plan in place there since about two years prior to when it was clear Mauer's days catching were limited.

 

I would also argue Terry has gone years without a long term answer at SS, 3B, and 2B. 

Certainly during the dome years the Twins would play anybody with a pulse as long as they were cheap.  That shouldn't count against Ryan years later with a new funding environment.

 

Since then SS has always had prospects on the near horizon, even if they were not top 100 quality; Hardy, Nishioka, Plouffe, Dozier, Florimon, Escobar, Santana and Polanco.  They were given a chance and once the Twins determined they were not capable of playing the position a new prospect was given a chance (though I realize some people wanted the transitions to be quicker).

 

Third base has had Valencia and then Plouffe. Second base has had Casilla and Dozier.  While you might not agree with the leashes on Casilla, Valencia or Nishioka none of those scream "no long term plan".

 

Compare that to the current 3B position if Sano has been deemed not acceptable.  Plouffe and then..... ?  There aren't even any prospects in the pipeline for the next 4+ years.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Why did you ignore the most recent example of catcher? This team clearly never trusted Pinto even on the level of Casilla, Valencia, etc.

[Oxtung]

 

Why did you ignore the most recent example of catcher? This team clearly never trusted Pinto even on the level of Casilla, Valencia, etc.

Ran out of time and had to get back to work.  

 

I see no evidence they "gave up" on him until this season.  All the evidence suggests they were concerned about his defense but still had hope.  They called him up both in 2013, where he raked, and 2014, where he was ok but not great.  He got over 200 innings behind the dish in both seasons.  Even going into 2015 the Twins were still giving him a chance.  He was with the MLB team in spring training until he got a concussion from which he never seemed to recover, hitting .659 in AAA.

 

If the Twins had given up on him as early as 2014, like tobi0040 suggested, why did they give him 30 games at the end of 2014?  Why did they not send him down with the rest of the catchers that didn't have a chance in spring training 2015?  

 

Let's flip this around.  What evidence is there that the Twins had given up on Pinto before September of 2015 when he didn't get called up when rosters expanded?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I still don't see evidence that they've given up on him at 3rd.  Bottom line, they want him in the lineup, and they aren't planning on putting him in AAA.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Ran out of time and had to get back to work.

 

I see no evidence they "gave up" on him until this season. All the evidence suggests they were concerned about his defense but still had hope. They called him up both in 2013, where he raked, and 2014, where he was ok but not great. He got over 200 innings behind the dish in both seasons. Even going into 2015 the Twins were still giving him a chance. He was with the MLB team in spring training until he got a concussion from which he never seemed to recover, hitting .659 in AAA.

 

If the Twins had given up on him as early as 2014, like tobi0040 suggested, why did they give him 30 games at the end of 2014? Why did they not send him down with the rest of the catchers that didn't have a chance in spring training 2015?

 

Let's flip this around. What evidence is there that the Twins had given up on Pinto before September of 2015 when he didn't get called up when rosters expanded?

30 games at the end of 2014? Pinto got 8 MLB starts at catcher after June 2014, 2 at DH, and 4 pinch hitting appearances.

 

I have no doubt the Twins hoped for better from Pinto, but it's fairly clear they never really expected him to be better. As soon as Suzuki looked like a viable starter in early 2014, they shuffled out Pinto and never really looked back.

[Oxtung]

 

30 games at the end of 2014? Pinto got 8 MLB starts at catcher after June 2014, 2 at DH, and 4 pinch hitting appearances.

I have no doubt the Twins hoped for better from Pinto, but it's fairly clear they never really expected him to be better. As soon as Suzuki looked like a viable starter in early 2014, they shuffled out Pinto and never really looked back.

If that was true why did he still get looks in spring training 2015?

[Kwak]

 

If that was true why did he still get looks in spring training 2015?

Perhaps the reasoning to provide Spring training looks to:  Quentin, Mastroianni, ...etc. is the same as the reasoning used for Pinto in 2015?

[Otto von Ballpark]

If that was true why did he still get looks in spring training 2015?

Lots of guys "get looks" in spring training, doesn't mean they are future starting plans. Again, I am sure the Twins were hoping Pinto could do something, by spring 2015 that something was probably just backup catcher and PH/DH. As far as a starting catcher, they had already obviously moved on from Pinto as an option with his quick demotion and the Suzuki extension in 2014.

[Oxtung]

Perhaps the reasoning to provide Spring training looks to:  Quentin, Mastroianni, ...etc. is the same as the reasoning used for Pinto in 2015?

Exactly. They thought he could still be a part of their future.

[Oxtung]

Lots of guys "get looks" in spring training, doesn't mean they are future starting plans. Again, I am sure the Twins were hoping Pinto could do something, by spring 2015 that something was probably just backup catcher and PH/DH. As far as a starting catcher, they had already obviously moved on from Pinto as an option with his quick demotion and the Suzuki extension in 2014.

Until they "get looks" how do you know if they are a future anything? That's the point. You don't give looks if you've moved on and Pinto was still getting looks.

 

It took Hicks 3 years to become a starter, did they move on from him because they demoted him several times? How about Gibson, Berrios or May because they signed Hughes to an extension?

[Oxtung]

Look in the end how we think the Twins viewed Pinto is irrelevant to the larger point. At some point they moved on and when they did they found an outside candidate for the job because there was nothing in the prospect pipeline.

 

We will know they have moved on from Sano when they find a long term solution to 3B because there is nothing behind him capable of being a starter.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I wish people would step back and consider what they are saying. Of course Sano can play third base. He's played there his whole career. Lots of really good fielders are charged with a ton of errors in the minors. No one is demanding that he win the gold glove. Plouffsie didn't figure out 3B until a couple years ago.

 

The thing I am having the most trouble understanding is how Sano is plenty athletic enough to learn outfield, but he's not athletic enough to ever learn to play third base at even a passable level. 

 

Anyone want to take that one?

 

 

[jimmer]

 

I wish people would step back and consider what they are saying. Of course Sano can play third base. He's played there his whole career. Lots of really good fielders are charged with a ton of errors in the minors. No one is demanding that he win the gold glove. Plouffsie didn't figure out 3B until a couple years ago.

 

The thing I am having the most trouble understanding is how Sano is plenty athletic enough to learn outfield, but he's not athletic enough to ever learn to play third base at even a passable level. 

 

Anyone want to take that one?

Plouffe had played SS his whole career.  Was it obvious he could play shortstop when he hit the majors?  What about Danny Santana?  Braun had played IF his whole career too until he was so bad they had to put him in the OF after his rookie season.  The list of people who played a position his whole career before hitting the majors and couldn't cut it once they made it to the majors goes on and on.  All throughout baseball. 

 

And, in fairness, Plouffe probably would have figured out 3B a lot sooner if the team had realized he wasn't a shortstop a lot earlier.

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Until they "get looks" how do you know if they are a future anything? That's the point. You don't give looks if you've moved on and Pinto was still getting looks.

 

It took Hicks 3 years to become a starter, did they move on from him because they demoted him several times? How about Gibson, Berrios or May because they signed Hughes to an extension?

If Hicks could only play one position and we signed a player for 2/12 to start full time at that position, shortly after benching and demoting Hicks, then yeah, I'd say we were probably giving up on him.

 

I think it is revisionist history to say that Pinto was ever viewed as a future plan or potential MLB starter catcher. Remember he was actually left unprotected as a minor league free agent before he elected to stay here and had his 2012-2013 breakout in the minors. And when he got promoted and nominal MLB reps at the position, it was basically when we were scrambling at the position after Mauer's concussion. At best, he was probably viewed as a potential Doumit replacement, which was a spot/need that didn't really exist anymore once Mauer shifted.

 

Sorry I have no idea how this tangent started anymore, but my motto is leave no tangent unturned!

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Plouffe had played SS his whole career.  Was it obvious he could play shortstop when he hit the majors?  What about Danny Santana?  Braun had played IF his whole career too until he was so bad they had to put him in the OF after his rookie season.  The list of people who played a position his whole career before hitting the majors and couldn't cut it once they made it to the majors goes on and on.  All throughout baseball. 

 

And, in fairness, Plouffe probably would have figured out 3B a lot sooner if the team had realized he wasn't a shortstop a lot earlier.

That's not the question I was asking you to address.

 

[jimmer]

 

That's not the question I was asking you to address.

Are you saying I completely mis-read your post?  Cause I wouldn't be surprised if I did :-)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Are you saying I completely mis-read your post?/post  Cause I wouldn't be surprised if I did :-)

Granted, not everyone who is ok with Sano in the outfield is saying it because they don't believe he can play 3B. There seems to be a wide range of opinion on how well he can play 3B however, all the way down to he doesn't have a chance to ever be good there.