Berrios getting hosed

[mnfanforlife]

And what is up with Jose Berrios? This guy should have definitely been up to help with the playoff push last year as a STARTING pitcher, of course. But now, he is going to start the year at AAA. Joke. The Twins are running the risk of mismanaging their best young pitcher in Berrios, and their best young hitter in Miguel Sano with the whole transition to the outifeld. Its all stupid, in my opinion. If I was Berrios or Sano, I would be looking for a way out.

[Seth Stohs]

Well, they're not. Both very high character people. 

 

Berrios was a little disappointed, and he used that the fuel is offseason workout again. 

 

He wasn't hosed. It was about the innings. When you have someone that talented, you do what is best for him short and long term. They decided to take care of him. I can't be upset about that. Did they maybe mismanage his innings early? Maybe. But they couldn't let that mistake become a second mistake by putting him into those extra innings. 

 

Was it the right decision? There's no way to answer that with any certainty, but I know that they did it for the right reasons. I'm good with that. 

 

And... though I think Berrios will start the season in AAA... I fully believe he will get a real shot to open the season with the club. Right or wrong, the Twins haven't done what the Cubs did with Kris Bryant last year...

[stringer bell]

I think Berrios will get the Bryant treatment, but they have guys with contracts in front of him. I think Kepler would have to be the Twins best hitter and show zero weaknesses to not be sent to AAA, again in part from service time, but also because other people playing his position are out of options.

[Rosterman]

The Twins added Buxton to the mix, although they really didn't have to. Did it benefit him? You want to say "yes" that he got a look at major league pitching and if he produced bigtime, all the more better for it (shades of Rosario). Does he need more seasoning? He has spring training to prove that he worked hard on any troubles in his bat during the winter. 

 

Sano lit up the skies. But was he perfect? He has to continue to work to stay in the major leagues. And I'm sure that he will come to spring training an improved batter. How the Twins may screw him up position wise will be the fault of the front office.

 

2-3 games with Berrios in the rotation. If he shined, we would've been IN the playoffs. That's a big pill for the front office to swallow...but the front office is content to call the team contenders and that they were "in the hunt" until the last day. Perception going into the next season and making those season ticket sales.

 

AT some point you have to stop playing the "options" game, the "how much salary do we eat" game (they ate Stauffer and they ate Lamb). You go with the best 25. If the guy can't make your team, who is to say he will ever make another team. 

 

If you worry too much about service time and free agency, then you should get out of the game. It is part of the game. Guys can be young free agents. You can gamble and lose signing players long-term. There is no guarantee...and the players themselves play this game, too.

 

You can let Buxton, Berrios, Kepler (and even Sano) play another season or two in the minors. No problem. You have that power as team owner. You can throw Hicks to the wolves for a couple of seasons, you can get yelled at for playing Gomez back when many of us cried "minor seasoning needed."  You can pull plugs on players of ability because of service time, or create a mess, like the front office has done with Arcia...do we keep him or let him walk.

 

The Twins, sadly, didn't need to add Berrios to the 40-man this past September, although it would've done wonders for the kid to even sit on the bench. They didn't need to add him STILL this off-season. That is their choice. I hope he comes to spring training and shows that he is the dominate of the five considered for the rotation and make the Twins make salary choices.

[Willihammer]

 

But now, he is going to start the year at AAA. Joke.

Is this true? Source?

[bird]

I feel so sorry for the kid. If his prayers are answered, he'll make a couple hundred million over his career, working about as hard as your average taconite mine worker and living in conditions 99.9% of the people on this planet can't possibly imagine. How about a little bit of perspective?

[drjim]

 

Is this true? Source?

 

I would say it is unless there is multiple injuries.

[Rosterman]

 

Is this true? Source?

He would have to be lights out in the early weeks to not make the first cut, since he is not on the 40-man. As someone mentioned, injuries could play a key, but even then the Twins would probably go with someone of the 40-man and have him go thru spring minor league camp and a couple of starts at AAA to get stretched out and comfortable.

[drjim]

There are multiple examples of similarly regarded players as Berrios being treated exactly the same. He'll be fine. Probably not quite built up enough to make it through a season from day 1, so keeping him down a little, managing his innings, makes sense.

[PseudoSABR]

 

And what is up with Jose Berrios? This guy should have definitely been up to help with the playoff push last year as a STARTING pitcher, of course. But now, he is going to start the year at AAA. Joke. The Twins are running the risk of mismanaging their best young pitcher in Berrios, and their best young hitter in Miguel Sano with the whole transition to the outifeld. Its all stupid, in my opinion. If I was Berrios or Sano, I would be looking for a way out.

Mismanaging would be rushing prospects based solely on minor league statistical results.   Mismanaging would be basing promotion on improving future bargaining as opposed to whats best for the player's development, which in turn would maximize future earning power.  

 

Your argument makes no sense with respects to Sano, who was promoted without having taken an at bat in AAA, and without having an open position to play.  

 

And frankly, your argument about "looking for a way out" runs counter to how homegrown players actually feel about playing for the Twins.  You know the many examples of player loyalty to this organization.

[HitInAPinch]

 

Is this true? Source?

I couldn't find anything that would support that claim.

[Thrylos]

 

. The Twins are running the risk of mismanaging their best young pitcher in Berrios,

 

Arguably, Berrios was not the best starter in Rochester last season based on results (depending how you are counting; Duffey had better ERA, FIP and BB/9,) much more "their best young pitcher".  I can think at least of 2-3 more that may deserve that title better than Berrios, based on stuff.

[mudcat14]

He had already thrown  25+ more innings than he had ever tossed in a single season.  Undoubtedly he would have tried to throw out of his shoes if he had been promoted in September.  The Twins were wise of avoid the risk of injury to a talent so young.  If he earns a rotation spot this spring, I'm sure he'll pitch.  But it wouldn't surprise me at all if they give him a month or so in AAA to build a pitch count and a rhythm first. 

[SF Twins Fan]

Man this is dramatic... If he's the top 2 or 3 pitchers at the start of the season then yes the Twins should start him in the Show. If not, the way the schedule is set up with multiple off days to start the season they might as well start him in AAA and manage his innings for the first month, wait for an injury or poor performance. The other benefit would be gaining an extra year of control. It's not like the Twins are running a terrible starting rotation out there like they did from 2011 to 2014. It's not the best in the MLB but I'd say it's better than average.

[Ronald Zimmerman]

The Twins have to have Berrios in AAA for the first few weeks. They can't afford to

give him his first full year early. Being a GM with a non potential world series

team in 2016 and not a full pipeline with potential #1 or #2 status, I would have to agree with FO to keep him down in April with a specific work agenda.

[Harman23]

OK let put on business the time table is no wrong thinking on long terms with Berrios. But what about what the player wants like a see on his social media that he have big goals and looks to me he work hard for accomplish them, way don't give him the opportunity the twins don't need Buxton when they call him up they do call him because that Astros call up Correa and they feel the pressure off the 2012 draf first pick it up how the top prospect in MiLB is not up too that is my opinion on why the Twins call Buxton up but check the #s he put on MLB he don't help the team in any way but is ok is business and persection. 

 

But I think Berrios will shine in spring training and if they desaide to not let him star on opening day after a good spring training the boy will be upset and then what happens when he get call up and make a big impact and accomplish he's goals and them when the team realize that they want to locking him he decide to not take a extension and take the free agency just because the way the front office treat him. Them ad d another player on the list of player who others team be glad to have him in there roster and pay him big time and the twins don't have the money for a long term contract for him and the way work and treat his body I don't see a injury in a long time he don't drink he don't look like a party boy , I think no one realize what that kid big future will be its my opinion sorry and they have more player in the milb that will help the team too like Jorge Polanco, Walker, Edgar Corcino, If they are not on the twins planning for the future trade them

[kab21]

 

I think Berrios will get the Bryant treatment, but they have guys with contracts in front of him. I think Kepler would have to be the Twins best hitter and show zero weaknesses to not be sent to AAA, again in part from service time, but also because other people playing his position are out of options.

The problem is that those guys with contracts can't be sent to AAA so the team loses a lot of depth by simply cutting them (or not having them) to make room for Berrios.  At some point someone is going to be injured.

 

The Twins aren't putting washed up scrubs in the rotation to block Berrios.  Hughes is a season removed from being considered a 2/3.  Ervin is at least a 3.  Gibson is a fine #3.  Milone has gotten #3 results even if his stuff is not exciting.  Duffey arguably matched Berrios at AA/AAA and was awesome in the majors for a rookie.

 

It isn't like 2014 Correia, 2015 Pelfrey or Nolasco are expected to be in the rotation this year.  I will be the FIRST person to bash the FO if Nolasco is making starts ahead of a healthy Berrios.

[gunnarthor]

 

OK let put on business the time table is no wrong thinking on long terms with Berrios. But what about what the player wants like a see on his social media that he have big goals and looks to me he work hard for accomplish them, way don't give him the opportunity the twins don't need Buxton when they call him up they do call him because that Astros call up Correa and they feel the pressure off the 2012 draf first pick it up how the top prospect in MiLB is not up too that is my opinion on why the Twins call Buxton up but check the #s he put on MLB he don't help the team in any way but is ok is business and persection. 

 

 

I can't imagine that there was any scenario where Ryan decided to do something based on what the Astros did.  Buxton got called up b/c Hicks went on the DL.  If you'll recall, Buxton was optioned back to AAA after his own DL stint.  If Ryan was worried about appearances, Buxton would not have gone to AAA.

 

I'm sure the Twins know what they have with Berrios - they've pushed him pretty fast through the system and he'll be making a lot of starts for the Twins next year.  Maybe not on opening day.

[nicksaviking]

Berrios hasn't been mis-managed. One could argue the current rotation has, but not Berrios.

 

I would really feel more comfortable if we knew that Nolasco and Hughes had about the shortest leashes available though. I might be alone, but I'm very worried about Hughes. If we get through spring training and his fastball is still only at 90 MPH as it was last year, I'm going to feel pretty confident saying that whatever ailed him last year (if something was truly ailing him) isn't going to be reversed; his breaking stuff is just not good enough for him to get by with a 90 MPH heater.

[mnfanforlife]

Berrios is very young. But also very good. After this coming season, he will probably be the guy Molitor picks for a wild card game or a "game 163" (if that's still possible with the new system??).

 

I just think he should have some major league experience by now... what with his dominant numbers/stellar character/radar gun/ wipe -out slider? This looks like its all about the money. Meaning...less money for Berrios, more for the owner...long term. Maybe he could break his own record for starts in the Futures game?

 

Also agree that Polanco is getting hosed. Maybe there isn't a spot on MN's roster for him (although I did want to trade Dozier right now! while his value is somewhat valuable), but Polanco is major league ready, and has been for some time.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Well, they're not. Both very high character people. 

 

Berrios was a little disappointed, and he used that the fuel is offseason workout again. 

 

He wasn't hosed. It was about the innings. When you have someone that talented, you do what is best for him short and long term. They decided to take care of him. I can't be upset about that. Did they maybe mismanage his innings early? Maybe. But they couldn't let that mistake become a second mistake by putting him into those extra innings. 

 

Was it the right decision? There's no way to answer that with any certainty, but I know that they did it for the right reasons. I'm good with that. 

 

And... though I think Berrios will start the season in AAA... I fully believe he will get a real shot to open the season with the club. Right or wrong, the Twins haven't done what the Cubs did with Kris Bryant last year...

 

There is zero evidence about the innings thing being real.....and yes, he should have been up last year. But, they didn't promote any pitcher that could have really helped the bullpen last year....He should have started the May start.

[mnfanforlife]

 

There is zero evidence about the innings thing being real.....and yes, he should have been up last year. But, they didn't promote any pitcher that could have really helped the bullpen last year....He should have started the May start.

 

Agree with all of this

[Mike Sixel]

I don't know if he's getting screwed, but the fans were last year when he wasn't promoted in an attempt to actually win and get to the playoffs, imo.

[tobi0040]

My understanding is Berrios is in the same boat as Bryant.  The Twins are in a position where about 3 starts this year would cost us a year when he is 28 or 29. 

 

Given that and the number crunch ahead of him, I would be shocked if he was up prior to that.

 

It was also more clear that Bryant was the best 3B the Cubs had than it is that Berrios is ready and should be up on April 1.

[mnfanforlife]

The fans deserved Berrios. Plain and simple. TR claimed he was doing the right thing for the "kid" by sending him home in early Sept. But its clear he was acting on behalf of the owner for strictly financial reasons. Its plain to see that Berrios is a better pitcher RIGHT NOW than anyone they sent out for a start last season.

[tobi0040]

I don't see the Bryant comps though.  He hit 55 HR in 180 minor leagues games and had an OPS of 1.042. 

 

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

The fans deserved Berrios. Plain and simple. TR claimed he was doing the right thing for the "kid" by sending him home in early Sept. But its clear he was acting on behalf of the owner for strictly financial reasons. Its plain to see that Berrios is a better pitcher RIGHT NOW than anyone they sent out for a start last season.

Typically, language like "plain," "simple," and "clear" are redflags that a person is having trouble supporting their argument with actual facts and not mere supposition.  Just saying.

[Seth Stohs]

 

My understanding is Berrios is in the same boat as Bryant.  The Twins are in a position where about 3 starts this year would cost us a year when he is 28 or 29. 

 

Given that and the number crunch ahead of him, I would be shocked if he was up prior to that.

 

It was also more clear that Bryant was the best 3B the Cubs had than it is that Berrios is ready and should be up on April 1.

 

Doing this makes the most sense, but again, the Twins haven't used that to their obvious benefit in recent years. 

[mnfanforlife]

There are no facts to lean on here. Had Berrios been given a shot last year, we would have a better idea of how bad he is being hosed. But he is clearly, plainly, and simply being hosed in order to secure an extra year of team control, which is a fact. A disputable fact, yes. But a fact that we see play out all the time in MLB. 

 

Fact #2: Berrios is a better pitcher right now than anyone they sent out last year. Its hard to argue that anyone in the Twins org is better suited to get hitters out. Nobody else has the "stuff" combined with the poise, that Berrios has displayed over the past three years.

 

These financial situations create two groups of supporters. Those that support the club's (owner's) rights, and those that would rather support the idea of the players getting a larger share of the owner's profits.

[IndyTwinsFan]

 

There are no facts to lean on here. Had Berrios been given a shot last year, we would have a better idea of how bad he is being hosed. But he is clearly, plainly, and simply being hosed in order to secure an extra year of team control, which is a fact. A disputable fact, yes. But a fact that we see play out all the time in MLB. 

 

Fact #2: Berrios is a better pitcher right now than anyone they sent out last year. Its hard to argue that anyone in the Twins org is better suited to get hitters out. Nobody else has the "stuff" combined with the poise, that Berrios has displayed over the past three years.

 

These financial situations create two groups of supporters. Those that support the club's (owner's) rights, and those that would rather support the idea of the players getting a larger share of the owner's profits.

Given his relatively young age, I have a hard time buying into the service time argument, especially as an obvious fact.   My guess is that it's really nothing more than a personal belief, which is fine in and of itself (and you're certainly entitled to it).   However, I have a hard time believing there is any verifiable factual material to support it.

In my mind, Fact 2 is not fully supportable.   Comparing Berrios' AA and AAA 2015 stats to the major league stats of other 2015 starters is not an apples-to-apples comparison.   Might he have done better at the MLB-level than any of last year's starters?  Possibly, but IMO, his AA and AAA numbers by themselves don't provide near enough solid evidence of that.