Dear Terry Ryan... Take a look at the AL Central and factor that in

[shimrod]

"my bad that I forgot to also remind you what the Twins save in payroll one year does not carry forward to the next year"

 

Funny, it doesn't work that way at my place. Saving now for an upcoming large expense is standard procedure anywhere else. This is the kind of arbitrary, nonsensical "budget" rule that leads people to believe the Twins are all about the money with winning only a concern as far as it put fans in the seats. Where does the unspent money go, does it evaporate at the end of the fiscal year? Hell no.

 

I'm not asking the owners to take a loss, but a year or two with payroll tens of  millions under the budget should create an opportunity to go over for a top quality FA who's a good fit. And by top quality, I don't mean Nolasco grade.

 

[shimrod]

"So you think that if the Twins offer to Park was so low that he rejected it, THAT would be a PR victory for the Twins?"

 

The PR is only secondary. The move also keeps Park off anyone else's roster. And yes, the Twins management is perfectly capable of telling the media that Park's requests were unreasonable and it's a shame he just wouldn't accept their generous offer.

 

And again, I don't know what TR and friends are actually thinking.

[TheLeviathan]

"my bad that I forgot to also remind you what the Twins save in payroll one year does not carry forward to the next year"

 

Funny, it doesn't work that way at my place. Saving now for an upcoming large expense is standard procedure anywhere else. This is the kind of arbitrary, nonsensical "budget" rule that leads people to believe the Twins are all about the money with winning only a concern as far as it put fans in the seats. Where does the unspent money go, does it evaporate at the end of the fiscal year? Hell no.

 

I'm not asking the owners to take a loss, but a year or two with payroll tens of  millions under the budget should create an opportunity to go over for a top quality FA who's a good fit. And by top quality, I don't mean Nolasco grade.

The Twins themselves have stated they don't operate this way. So you can say all you want on a message board that they should, but they don't.

[Major League Ready]

 

Terry Ryan had no choice but to aggressively sign Hughes and Nolasco. 

 

Kevin Correia was our top starting pitcher in 2013. 

 

He had absolutely no choice and in order to convince someone halfway decent to come to Minnesota. It took some years to get it done and now we have Ricky Nolasco. 

 

Nolasco was an absolute necessity at the time. 

 

I wouldn't call that aggressive. 

 

Trading Span... I think... actually I'm guessing that the Nationals were calling him and Terry needed pitching bad and was asking for Meyer. When the Braves signed Upton... The Nationals finally agreed to give up Meyer. 

 

I'm also guessing that the Nationals are surprised that Meyer isn't impressing in the bigs right now. 

 

I'm also guessing that Revere to the Phillies was also a by-product of Upton signing with the Braves. With no inside information at all... I'm guessing that Ryan had no plan to trade Revere but the Phillies called because everybody in the NL East gulped when the Braves landed BJ

 

and... 

 

The Twins needed pitching and needed it bad. Getting 2 arms in the deal probably made Terry think to himself. "Mmmm... I wonder if Aaron Hicks can handle CF" 

 

That's what I'm guessing. All those aggressive moves were because the Twins had absolutely no starting pitching at all in 2012 and it was still bad in 2013. 

 

He had no choice

He could have done nothing.  Anyone care to guess how that would have been received?

[sane09]

 

"So you think that if the Twins offer to Park was so low that he rejected it, THAT would be a PR victory for the Twins?"

 yes, the Twins management is perfectly capable of telling the media that Park's requests were unreasonable and it's a shame he just wouldn't accept their generous offer.

 

And again, I don't know what TR and friends are actually thinking.

But an unsigned Park is free to publicize the EXACT $$$ in that "generous" offer, and let the Twins fans determine how "generous" it was.

The Twins would be forced to deny FACTS.

Not a comfortable denial.

[sane09]

The other one is a flyer who put numbers up in what appears to be low grade MiLB.

But those are BIG numbers.

[shimrod]

"But an unsigned Park is free to publicize the EXACT $$$ in that "generous" offer, and let the Twins fans determine how "generous" it was.

The Twins would be forced to deny FACTS.

Not a comfortable denial."

 

Numbers are facts, generosity and value are matters of opinion. The Twins don't care what we think. The vast majority of game attendees don't even know this site exists. They read the paper, watch the news, and when they hear Park turned down millions to play for the Twins they aren't going to blame TR for being cheap.

[Han Joelo]

And now, a holiday time metaphor…the ghosts of Christmas past

 

Park reminds me of the time I got a set of Brix Blox (or was it Brics Blocs?) for Christmas, instead of the set of Legos I really wanted.  Brix Blox were the Sears Brand version of Legos; they worked the same, but they didn't quite fit with Legos, and they didn't have the familiar brand name look.  I suppose I might have subconsciously known that they were some how metaphorical symbols of our lack of affluence, or perhaps my parents cheapness--if they just hadn't wasted money on those socks they'd bought me (and I didn't think I needed) for my birthday, they could have afforded the Legos!

 

Murphy reminds me of getting, once again, Sears Brand Levis.  They were exactly the same as regular Levis, except they had a little orange tag instead of a red one.  Just as tough and durable, and uncomfortable, but less expensive.  Amazing how much the subtle difference in shading of that tiny little tag mattered to me as a 12 year old.  Parachute pants were "cool" at the time, but they were hard to find, expensive, and they wore out really fast.   Just like good offense catchers.

 

And May is like that Ford Mustang LX I had in high school.  The LX looked everything like a GT, except under the hood.  No amount of tinkering could change that V6 to a V8.  But, to stretch the analogy far enough to suit my purposes--that automatic V-6 could beat a V-8 standard in a short race.  I just had to accept that car for what it was, rather than pretend it was something it wasn't.  God knows it was a lot cooler than the '76 Buick Electra I'd been driving, although ask me now which car I could have and it would be a different story.

 

Looking back at it now, with the perspective of being a 'responsible parent' myself, I am amazed my parents were able to do what they WERE able to do.  As cheesy as it sounds, not being given exactly everything I wanted truly did build character; it forced me to adapt and overcome.

 

I see a lot of people clamoring for "accountability," i.e., they think TR and others should be fired for their lack of winning.  I see it the opposite way--the fact they know they are accountable keeps them from doing stupid, half-cocked things, like blowing the credit card on stuff I don't really need.  Although I probably wished my parents would've been fired at times, and my mysterious cool Uncle would have raised me instead, I'm certainly glad now they weren't.

 

This post sponsored by Hallmark.

 

 

[sane09]

 

 they aren't going to blame TR for being cheap.

THAT would be a PR victory for the Twins?

They are going to:

1) put in a high bid,

2) purposely low-ball Park

3) hope that Park rejects the low-ball offer

all for the purpose of assuring that nobody is going "to blame TR for being cheap"?

Sounds like a plan with a goal worth shooting for.........

[shimrod]

Now you're just being obtuse....

 

You left out the entire aspect of ensuring no one else gets Park. No one knows how he's going to perform in MLB, but if he pans out for someone else the Twins are that much weaker in comparison.

 

In my scenario, the Twins block another team from (possibly) getting better at no cost to the Twins. On the other hand, now Park has signed the Twins are out 12 million, out the contract, and now have to find out if Park can play or not. That's a lot of risk for mister Ryan.

 

All at a position we're already loaded. If we don't sign Park we're not sending Sano to the outfield for the first time in his entire career.

[sane09]

Now you're just being obtuse....

 

You left out the entire aspect of ensuring no one else gets Park. No one knows how he's going to perform in MLB, but if he pans out for someone else the Twins are that much weaker in comparison.

 

In my scenario, the Twins block another team from (possibly) getting better at no cost to the Twins. On the other hand, now Park has signed the Twins are out 12 million, out the contract, and now have to find out if Park can play or not. That's a lot of risk for mister Ryan.

Although "obtuse" is always a goal of mine, in this case IMO Park is not established enough to warrant that much effort to keep him away from another (un-named) team.

That much planning, execution and fake negotiations is only appropriate for Tanaka, Ichiro or the like.

And from which team are the Twins trying to block Park?

I thought only the Pirates were interested in him.

[Han Joelo]

I'm sorry, I've seen a lot of posts that paint Terry Ryan as a bumbling fool who is only good when he is lucky, but to conjecture that he was part of some diabolical scheme to keep Park from all 29 other MLB teams, only to have the plan blow up in his face because, well, he's a bumbling fool…I can't even grammatically complete this sentence.

 

Are you saying TR thought Park was good enough that through some crazy addition by subtraction, Park, at best, would be prevented from helping another team out, but he's not good enough to actually sign?

 

If there are ulterior motives, I think it would be that the Park signing was driven in large part by the marketing opportunities in Korea it will provide.

[lukeduke1980]

Someone will have less at-bats this year (and the next couple) due to the presence of Park.  Classic Minnesota passive aggressive solution to a problem.

[sane09]

Someone will have less at-bats this year (and the next couple) due to the presence of Park.

OMG!!

Are you saying that Arcia(.199 at AAA) and Danny Santana may have fewer at-bats this season because of Park?

Call the Korean Ambassador!

This looks like a International Incident brewing!

[shimrod]

"Are you saying TR thought Park was good enough that through some crazy addition by subtraction, Park, at best, would be prevented from helping another team out, but he's not good enough to actually sign?"

 

At what point did I say the Twins never wanted Park at any price? I just said I don't think they wanted him that much and were probably surprised he signed. He doesn't fit a need and the Twins sure haven't rolled out the welcome mat so far.

 

He's a complete unknown; he might be productive and he might wash out. The Twins spent quite a bit (for the Twins) on a 29 year old mystery and I don't think TR would have lost any sleep if Park hadn't signed.

[jokin]

 

He's definitely more aggressive than he once was, although it has primarily been a reactive (and often late) aggressiveness.  Our big FA SP signings, the Jepsen trade, even the recent Murphy acquisition, he was kinda forced into doing them after his conservative Plan A's blew up, sometimes spectacularly for a full season or longer.

 

The Revere and Span trades remain one of his rare examples of proactive aggressiveness.  As much as he's known as "Trader Terry", he really hasn't made that many unexpected trades (or free agent signings) of significance.

 

Ryan wasn't "proactive", more like "reactive" on the Revere trade...Revere was moved only because Philly called him up out of the blue and made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Carlos Gomez

[Major League Ready]

 

Signing mid rotation guys like Nolasco, Hughes and Santana are hardly aggressive. The fact that it appears to be "aggressive" moves shows all you need to know about how things have gone for the past couple decades.

The two real aggressive moves the Twins have made overal was signing Mauer to the long term deal, and getting the high bid on an elite prospect like Sano.

 

One has paid off big time and the other..well, has been not the best contract but Mauer still might have a couple good years left in him.

 

I was hoping after the success that Sano has shown early on (and in the Twins system prior) they would realize that "hey, maybe paying top dollar for elite talent might be worth it" sadly, they haven't done so again since then.

 

It should be noted that for what they paid Hunter and Pelfrey last season, they only would need to toss in another 5 million or so to have signed Cueto (AAV)

So, Dave, if you add Cueto, do you keep Nolasco and wait for injuries to make room for Berrios, May, and Duffey for the next two years, assuming you trade Milone? What about Jay/Meyer/Gonsalves/Stewart and anyone else who rises up through the system for the next 3 years. Once Nolasco is gone, you will still only have two spots open for Berrios, May, Jay, Meyer, Gonsalves, Stewart, and anyone else who rises up before 2019.

 

or

 

Do you cut Nolasco and effectively spend $34M/yr for two years for that spot in the rotation and rely on an injury to make room for Berrios (for the next 3 years) and of course keep May in the pen? Of course, you are still leaving room for two spots over the next 3 years for the SPs listed above.

 

BTW … A year or two ago I looked into the top international signings of all-time. Actually, I thought I posted it here. The vast majority of them never reached the big leagues or were barely above replacement level. You are only considering the data that supports your position (Sano) without considering all of the others that failed. When you look back at all of the top signings prior to Sano, it is certainly not clear that it is the most effective strategy. It would be interesting to look around the league at the top international players and what they signed for as an Amateur FA. I am guessing that teams would be better off signing five “Kepler level” international players than one Sano or twenty $200K signees.

 

Perhaps the more salient point is why the hell are you complaining about this when the Twins just shelled out their entire International pool on Wander Javier? Name another team at the Twins revenue level that has signed two $4M bonus babies in the past 5 years. It would appear you just ignore whatever does not fit the narrative you want to portray?

[Mike Sixel]

 

So, Dave, if you add Cueto, do you keep Nolasco and wait for injuries to make room for Berrios, May,  and Duffey for the next two years, assuming you trade Milone?  What about Jay/Meyer/Gonsalves/Stewart and anyone else who rises up through the system for the next 3 years.  Once Nolasco is gone, you will still only have two spots open for Berrios, May, Jay, Meyer, Gonsalves, Stewart, and anyone else who rises up before 2019.

 

or

 

Do you cut Nolasco and effectively spend $34M/yr for two years for that spot in the rotation and rely on an injury to make room for Berrios (for the next 3 years) and of course keep May in the pen?  Of course, you are still leaving room for two spots over the next 3 years for the SPs listed above.

 

BTW … A year or two ago I looked into the top international signings of all-time.  Actually, I thought I posted it here.  The vast majority of them never reached the big leagues or were barely above replacement level.  You are only considering the data that supports your position (Sano) without considering all of the others that failed. When you look back at all of the top signings prior to Sano, it is certainly not clear that it is the most effective strategy.  It would be interesting to look around the league at the top international players and what they signed for as an Amateur FA.  I am guessing that teams would be better off signing five “Kepler level” international players than one Sano or twenty $200K signees.

 

Perhaps the more salient point is why the hell are you complaining about this when the Twins just shelled out their entire International pool on Wander Javier?   Name another team at the Twins revenue level that has signed two $4M bonus babies in the past 5 years.  It would appear you just ignore whatever does not fit the narrative you want to portray?

 

Most draft picks don't work out either, should they stop using draft picks, and instead only sign FAs and give those picks away?

 

There are only three ways to add talent, are you suggesting they just abandon one of those ways?

 

Frankly, I'm tired of the game where we are only supposed to care if they Twins are as successful as other cry poor teams.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Perhaps the more salient point is why the hell are you complaining about this when the Twins just shelled out their entire International pool on Wander Javier?   Name another team at the Twins revenue level that has signed two $4M bonus babies in the past 5 years.  It would appear you just ignore whatever does not fit the narrative you want to portray?

The Rays and Royals have both exceeded their international spending caps recently.  Somehow the Twins haven't, apparently, despite spending virtually 100% of their pool on one guy...

[Mike Sixel]

 

The Rays and Royals have both exceeded their international spending caps recently.  Somehow the Twins haven't, apparently, despite spending virtually 100% of their pool on one guy...

 

It does seem odd to sign only 1 guy as a good strategy, if, as MLR points out, these guys almost never work out.

[sane09]

 

It does seem odd to sign only 1 guy as a good strategy, if, as MLR points out, these guys almost never work out.

That's true.

If they almost never work out, the best strategy is to almost never spend anything.

[Mike Sixel]

 

That's true.

If they almost never work out, the best strategy is to almost never spend anything.

 

That's actually not true. You have to acquire talent somehow.....this way is still cheaper than the US draft or FA. It just requires more luck. The payoff of Sano and Kepler and Polanco is probably worth more than the total cost of every Twins' international signing their entire history combined. Including going into the future (assuming there is an international draft in 2 years).

[sane09]

 

That's actually not true. You have to acquire talent somehow.....this way is still cheaper than the US draft or FA. It just requires more luck. The payoff of Sano and Kepler and Polanco is probably worth more than the total cost of every Twins' international signing their entire history combined. Including going into the future (assuming there is an international draft in 2 years).

I agree.

I was just trying to be logical and look where it got me.

[USAFChief]

So, Dave, if you add Cueto, do you keep Nolasco and wait for injuries to make room for Berrios, May, and Duffey for the next two years, assuming you trade Milone? What about Jay/Meyer/Gonsalves/Stewart and anyone else who rises up through the system for the next 3 years. Once Nolasco is gone, you will still only have two spots open for Berrios, May, Jay, Meyer, Gonsalves, Stewart, and anyone else who rises up before 2019.

 

or

 

Do you cut Nolasco and effectively spend $34M/yr for two years for that spot in the rotation and rely on an injury to make room for Berrios (for the next 3 years) and of course keep May in the pen? Of course, you are still leaving room for two spots over the next 3 years for the SPs listed above.

 

BTW … A year or two ago I looked into the top international signings of all-time. Actually, I thought I posted it here. The vast majority of them never reached the big leagues or were barely above replacement level. You are only considering the data that supports your position (Sano) without considering all of the others that failed. When you look back at all of the top signings prior to Sano, it is certainly not clear that it is the most effective strategy. It would be interesting to look around the league at the top international players and what they signed for as an Amateur FA. I am guessing that teams would be better off signing five “Kepler level” international players than one Sano or twenty $200K signees.

 

Perhaps the more salient point is why the hell are you complaining about this when the Twins just shelled out their entire International pool on Wander Javier? Name another team at the Twins revenue level that has signed two $4M bonus babies in the past 5 years. It would appear you just ignore whatever does not fit the narrative you want to portray?

it appears, to me at least, you are overlooking the international FA spending cap.

 

That's just another reason to question the Twins methods and/or financial commitment.

[Major League Ready]

 

The Rays and Royals have both exceeded their international spending caps recently.  Somehow the Twins haven't, apparently, despite spending virtually 100% of their pool on one guy...

I am 100% in agreement that the Twins should spend beyond their international pool but that has absolutely nothing to do with my comment.  My response was specific to strategy of signing the highest priced international guys. When I looked up all of the players from that top 20 off all-time list and the results were surprising poor.  All I was trying to point out two things.  One, it MIGHT be a better idea to sign five 800K guys or eight 500K guys instead of one $4M guy.  It was stated as something that would be interesting to study.  Two, that the Twins just signed another $4M guy so why was the posted complaining the Twins should do this again based on Sano.  They obviously did do it again.

[Major League Ready]

 

Most draft picks don't work out either, should they stop using draft picks, and instead only sign FAs and give those picks away?

 

There are only three ways to add talent, are you suggesting they just abandon one of those ways?

 

Frankly, I'm tired of the game where we are only supposed to care if they Twins are as successful as other cry poor teams.

I am not sure I understand point 1.  If you are somehow surmised my post suggested we not draft international FAs, you did not bother to look very close.  I merely pointed out the players receiving the largest bonuses of their time have had a poor track record and it would be interesting to compare results of the “Kepler type” signings or even the guys that got half of what Kepler got.  It was stated that I am curious if the return on one $4M guy on average has been a lot lower than investing it in let’s say ten $400K guys.

 

Which form of acquiring talent is being suggested be abandoned.  I assume this is from point one which you badly misinterpreted.

 

Point 3 - Are you suggesting that being a high revenue teams do not have an advantage and therefore measuring against the Twins revenue peers is not relevant or are you saying you want them to measure their success against the top revenue teams regardless of if they are at a disadvantage?

[Platoon]

I agree.

I was just trying to be logical and look where it got me.

This is TD, logic is not allowed! If you wish to pursue such a futile course, I would suggest a more appropriate site. Perhaps Politico? :)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Point 3 - Are you suggesting that being a high revenue teams do not have an advantage and therefore measuring against the Twins revenue peers is not relevant or are you saying you want them to measure their success against the top revenue teams regardless of if they are at a disadvantage?

nobody is saying high revene teams don't have an advantage in signing top free agents. The big problem I am having is that you are drawing the revenue line directly above the Twins. As I see it, the only teams with an inherent advantage year after year are a half dozen or so top market teams, the Cubs, maybe another team or two that happens to be ascendant at the time. That's it.

[dxpavelka]

 

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/24291992.jpg

Cue the dueling banjos.