Utley-Tejada

[gunnarthor]

 

What I find ironic is that in other places/cultures bat flipping is seen as fun and they'd never disrespect another player with a takeout slide, but here we flip those reactions.

We commend the intent to hurt and condemn celebrating as the "respectful" way to play. How ass backwards.

I'm not sure the first part is that correct.  Certainly, bat-flipping is seen differently depending on where you grew up but, outside of Japan, I think pretty much everyone does the take-out slide.  Certainly, Eddie Rosario has taken it to heart already.  But a look at what is acceptable and not acceptable in different parts of the world in baseball would actually be pretty interesting to see.  (DHs, take out slides, fan behavior, treatment of the umpires, HBP, different codes - I'd read that book).

[gunnarthor]

 

Why, exactly?  Putting aside the Utley suspension and fan outrage here -- is there any really redeeming quality to a player forced out at second base drop-kicking a middle infielder away from the bag?

.

I think it just goes to what you want in baseball.  Utley was going to blow up the double play.  He knew it before the play (which is why he had such a big second lead) and the Dodger's MI's should have known it.  

 

As fans we're always saying we want players to bust their asses and hustle.  We want the guys who would tackle their own grandma to win a game.  I don't like the idea that we (as fans up on high) suddenly moving the goalposts during a playoff game.

 

I think you're focusing too much on the aftermath - Utley didn't intend the injury and it was a bit of a freak occurrence.  (In fact, i was a bit surprised he himself didn't have a concussion).  Now, b/c of the injury, we're getting these sermons that I loathe.  99% of the time, it's a hard slide.  This was the 1% b/c of the bad throw.  It happens.  I'd rather we didn't make rule changes based on freak accidents that pissed off the NY market.

[USAFChief]

 

Why, exactly?  Putting aside the Utley suspension and fan outrage here -- is there any really redeeming quality to a player forced out at second base drop-kicking a middle infielder away from the bag?

 

I don't object to slides that break up the DP pivot.  But the runner's feet should hit the fielder in front of the bag (or even on the bag, presuming the runner's butt is already touching the ground), otherwise it's not a slide, it's malicious contact.

Concur.

 

It's a force play.  Anything other than a hard slide--feet first or head first if you wish--directly at the second base bag slows you down, and is therefore not an attempt to reach base safely, it's by definition an attempt to interfere.

 

Enforce the rule already.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think you're focusing too much on the aftermath - Utley didn't intend the injury and it was a bit of a freak occurrence.  (In fact, i was a bit surprised he himself didn't have a concussion).  Now, b/c of the injury, we're getting these sermons that I loathe.  99% of the time, it's a hard slide.  This was the 1% b/c of the bad throw.  It happens.  I'd rather we didn't make rule changes based on freak accidents that pissed off the NY market.

 

"Focusing on the aftermath" is precisely why there are changes for the better in football, hockey, and (catcher blocking) baseball as well.  Some plays are just disproportionately more inclined to cause injury by their very nature.  A guy aiming for the leg of a player (who usually has their leg planted in the ground) is going to cause injury.

 

We shouldn't have to teach people to jump and dive to avoid being chop blocked.  If guys were sliding hard into the base, that's one thing.  Kicking your leg 4 feet out with minimal effort to touch the base?

 

What the hell is the point other than some phony notion of "tough play"?

[TheLeviathan]

 

I'm not sure the first part is that correct.  Certainly, bat-flipping is seen differently depending on where you grew up but, outside of Japan, I think pretty much everyone does the take-out slide.  Certainly, Eddie Rosario has taken it to heart already.  But a look at what is acceptable and not acceptable in different parts of the world in baseball would actually be pretty interesting to see.  (DHs, take out slides, fan behavior, treatment of the umpires, HBP, different codes - I'd read that book).

 

I think it was said with Kang and Nishioka that turning double plays was very new to them here because in Asia there is much more respect shown for avoiding injuries to other players.  

 

The take-out slide is designed to terrorize infielders from smoothly turning double plays.  I can't think of a less respectful way to play.

[jimmer]

 

I think it was said with Kang and Nishioka that turning double plays was very new to them here because in Asia there is much more respect shown for avoiding injuries to other players.  

 

The take-out slide is designed to terrorize infielders from smoothly turning double plays.  I can't think of a less respectful way to play.

 

 

well, it certainly isn't less respectful than a bat flip by a young player  :-)

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I think it just goes to what you want in baseball.  Utley was going to blow up the double play.  He knew it before the play (which is why he had such a big second lead) and the Dodger's MI's should have known it.  

 

As fans we're always saying we want players to bust their asses and hustle.  We want the guys who would tackle their own grandma to win a game.  I don't like the idea that we (as fans up on high) suddenly moving the goalposts during a playoff game.

 

I think you're focusing too much on the aftermath - Utley didn't intend the injury and it was a bit of a freak occurrence.  (In fact, i was a bit surprised he himself didn't have a concussion).  Now, b/c of the injury, we're getting these sermons that I loathe.  99% of the time, it's a hard slide.  This was the 1% b/c of the bad throw.  It happens.  I'd rather we didn't make rule changes based on freak accidents that pissed off the NY market.

I am sure middle infielders in Ty Cobb's time knew what was coming too, but we don't tolerate that anymore.  Same for infielders in Hal McRae's time.  Why should we tolerate this?  If the MLBPA agrees to it this winter, will that be cool by you, or do you think the players would be "moving the goalposts"?

 

I don't want players who would tackle their own grandma.  I realize it's just an expression, but like the drop-kick alongside the second base bag, it really has nothing to do with the sport.  It's more Tonya Harding than hard-nosed play.

 

Are there NY fans who wouldn't care if the situation was reversed the other night, or if it was a regular season game?  Sure.  But when critiquing these kind of plays, which I do whenever they come up, I don't care about those fan voices, and frankly a defense of these plays shouldn't either.

 

Are you unaware of what happened to Jung Ho Kang a few weeks ago?  There were plenty of reactions just like this, and a wide expectation that the rule would be revisited in the offseason.  I don't really blame Utley, but I think he just moved the timeline up a little bit.

[h2oface]

 

Not that different that what Swisher did to Nishioka.   I guess there needed to be a big market team on the receiving end to get national writers' outrage and call for rules' changes and suspensions.  Very unfortunate...

 

Yeah........ Swisher was a real coward and I agree about the stark similarities.  

 

I am not in the buying line about the market team, but I do buy the national exposure. I think the market is irrelevant, and the outrage and exposure would have been the same if this happened in a KC/Houston ALDS game as well, and the call for action is all about the national exposure on the largest stage that finally brings the needed attention to the hypocrisy of ignoring the written rule. There is already a rule in place though, that says the fielder has to touch the base for a force out, and the runner can't interfere. Why it has been allowed all these years and the hypocrisy of that has now even reached casual fans.  This will be good for the future of the game and clean up the tradition mess in the neighborhood. They left the neighborhood play as unreviewable with replay because they weren't enforcing it. It has always been outside the written rule. I don't see it all that dramatic that the rule should finally be enforced. It doesn't even have to be changed. I guess they could define it stricter, but the rule is already in place and just needs enforced.

[gunnarthor]

 

I am sure middle infielders in Ty Cobb's time knew what was coming too, but we don't tolerate that anymore.  Same for infielders in Hal McRae's time.  Why should we tolerate this?  If the MLBPA agrees to it this winter, will that be cool by you, or do you think the players would be "moving the goalposts"?

 

Let's flip it.  Why shouldn't we tolerate this?  If we're actually interested in player safety, this is pretty low on the list.  We should be advocating for fewer games - esp the 2 game series - and more off days.  Or more drug testing.  Or uniform stadiums so outfielders don't have to learn new stadium dimensions.  But I don't think most complaints are really about player safety, per se.  It's about attacking a way of playing the game that some people don't care about and using player safety as the instrument of change.  

 

I suppose any rule change will depend on the new rule.  I don't want MLB turning into the Japanese leagues where take outs aren't done but if the players do collectively bargain for it, it should be accepted.  

[h2oface]

 

Yeah not only that, but this is the same thing that happened to Morneau. So, two Twins in two years with pretty devastating injuries on this exact play.

You can judge Morneau's and Swisher's slides for yourself. They look pretty similar to me. No where near as rotten as Utley's however.

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/0/v9761163/min-tor-morneau-leaves-the-game-after-getting-hurt

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/0/v13555283/min-nyy-nishioka-injured-on-swisher-s-takeout-slide

 

Swisher throwing his legs out and basically kicking at Nishioka is the same as sliding straight into the base? Both Swisher and Utley went out of the way to take out the fielder and interfere with the play. Swisher didn't even start his slide until he was already out. Both Nishi and Tejada had both moved enough out of the way to give the runner a clear path to the base. Both Swisher and Utley interfered purposely with the play, and went out of their way to do it. Both are cowardly moves and not in the spirit of the rules of the game as written. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Swisher throwing his legs out and basically kicking at Nishioka is the same as sliding straight into the base? Both Swisher and Utley went out of the way to take out the fielder and interfere with the play. Swisher didn't even start his slide until he was already out. Both Nishi and Tejada had both moved enough out of the way to give the runner a clear path to the base. Both Swisher and Utley interfered purposely with the play, and went out of their way to do it. Both are cowardly moves and not in the spirit of the rules of the game as written. 

Morneau's slide was more legit than Swisher's but not by much. People might disagree. They both started their slides about the same time, which is to say, much later than they needed to, and both slid directly into the relay guy. Swisher went with the leg kick because Nishioka's momentum took him away from the bag. Morneau went in a little higher with the forearms. That was probably in self defense as much as anything, but given how upright his slide was, it was still potentially disruptive to the throw. 

[jimmer]

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/baseball-is-not-a-contact-sport/

 

[ashbury]

I downloaded a copy of the MLB official rules, and then did a text search on the string "slide". (No other variations, so maybe I missed something.) There are a number of references, maybe a dozen, to be found there - reflecting a natural expectation that sliding will occur during baserunning.

 

What I was looking for, though - and found in only one place - was any wording in the rules to describe what acceptable sliding was like. That one instance was in the rule concerning home plate collisions. You will probably recall, that rule is brand new. It specifies acceptable slides both feet first and head first, such that if the runner does this, he won't be guilty of an illegal collision. Nothing like it anywhere else.

 

So when a new rule is written to deal with second base, it will no doubt contain similar wording. It's a new sentiment to try to define this specific aspect of the game, but precedent is now in place. Maybe they will even generalize to what legal slides are like at any base. I also expect that umpire judgement will be removed to the extent possible - so that the ump doesn't have to read between the ears of the players to know what their "intent" was.

 

I'm not in favor of the suspension for Utley for this collision, but I presume that next season it will be obvious and automatic.

[gunnarthor]

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/baseball-is-not-a-contact-sport/

Without clicking on the link, I am sure that that article will express contempt for Utley's slide, bemoan the health of injured players and rip on dinosaurs whose opinions on the game don't matter.

[kab21]

If I was a MI then I would find interesting ways to fall after these take out slides resulting in a variety of forearms or knees to various parts of the slider's body.  If you want to take me out then prepare for some pain yourself. 

 

I really have no idea what the take out slide adds to the game.  I understand trying to break up the double play but why not just allow the baserunner to run into the 2B while he is fielding the ball in the first place?  That is just as dumb but it is obviously not allowed.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Without clicking on the link, I am sure that that article will express contempt for Utley's slide, bemoan the health of injured players and rip on dinosaurs whose opinions on the game don't matter.

 

So....a rational take on the matter you're saying?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

All in good fun...............

 

 

Without clicking on the link, I am sure that that article will express contempt for Utley's slide....................... ............ ........... ................

 

 

 

 

............ ......... bemoan the health of injured players ............ ................

 

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6604/1037/1600/redx.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...... ............. .......and rip on dinosaurs whose opinions on the game don't matter.

 

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-St08n2uQtQY/TaD4pNcKCLI/AAAAAAAABEk/fxj1E1pOXq0/s1600/Three+X+family+feud+fail.png

 

 

[gunnarthor]

 

All in good fun...............

 

 

 

 

 

 

............ ......... bemoan the health of injured players ............ ................

 

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6604/1037/1600/redx.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-St08n2uQtQY/TaD4pNcKCLI/AAAAAAAABEk/fxj1E1pOXq0/s1600/Three+X+family+feud+fail.png

Really?

 

http://cdn.hitfix.com/photos/5248882/Steve-Harvey-Family-Feud-Shocked.jpg

[ashbury]

 

Really?

 

http://cdn.hitfix.com/photos/5248882/Steve-Harvey-Family-Feud-Shocked.jpg

http://asirtu.eu/foto/1379963563.jpeg

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/uf/135508/1328293601gf7edq.jpeg

http://cdn.playbuzz.com/cdn/bc694e5a-6674-4d4f-8c4d-567388161087/340d014e-16c5-4516-88ff-1ec6707ea992.gif

[Beemo]

 

Let's flip it.  Why shouldn't we tolerate this?  If we're actually interested in player safety, this is pretty low on the list.  We should be advocating for fewer games - esp the 2 game series - and more off days.  Or more drug testing.  Or uniform stadiums so outfielders don't have to learn new stadium dimensions.  But I don't think most complaints are really about player safety, per se.  It's about attacking a way of playing the game that some people don't care about and using player safety as the instrument of change.  

 

Why shouldn't more be tolerated? Why is bowling over the fielder only acceptable if there's the pretense of a slide? Why not allow him to flat-out tackle the guy? Why can they only make contact when it's a play at a base and not on, say, a popup to an infielder? What makes the takeout slide so different from all the other possible ways runners could be interfering with fielders trying to make outs but aren't allowed to?

 

 

[gunnarthor]

 

Why shouldn't more be tolerated? Why is bowling over the fielder only acceptable if there's the pretense of a slide? Why not allow him to flat-out tackle the guy? Why can they only make contact when it's a play at a base and not on, say, a popup to an infielder? What makes the takeout slide so different from all the other possible ways runners could be interfering with fielders trying to make outs but aren't allowed to?

Actually, the main reason they slide is so they don't die.  The short stop or second baseman can throw the ball through a runner and then both runners would be out.  Cal Ripkin was great at that.

 

The obvious reason for the take out slide is to prevent a second out (as opposed to your other instances).  If you want MLB to adopt a Japanese version, fine.  That's what you'd like.  I think that would be boring but to each his own.

 

This is off topic but when baseball was being created their were a lot of different rules and versions and one version - I believe it was the Boston version - allowed runners to be hit with the ball (it was a softer one) while running the bases to get the out.  Obviously that didn't end up being the version we played with but I read a fun story (maybe by Jim Caple?) who played a game under those old rules.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Actually, the main reason they slide is so they don't die.  

 

Sweet jesus man....really?

 

Also, if terrorizing with injury is ok to prevent outs...why not just let 'em run with the bat to first and take a hack at the 1B's arm?  Same principle.

[ashbury]

This is off topic but when baseball was being created their were a lot of different rules and versions and one version - I believe it was the Boston version - allowed runners to be hit with the ball (it was a softer one) while running the bases to get the out.  Obviously that didn't end up being the version we played with but I read a fun story (maybe by Jim Caple?) who played a game under those old rules.

The Massachusetts game. Soaking the runner. Closer to Town Ball than the New York game was. Good times, good times. Find a local vintage baseball team and sign up to play. You'll gain an appreciation for a lot of things about the game then and now.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Let's flip it.  Why shouldn't we tolerate this?  If we're actually interested in player safety, this is pretty low on the list.  We should be advocating for fewer games - esp the 2 game series - and more off days.  Or more drug testing.  Or uniform stadiums so outfielders don't have to learn new stadium dimensions.  But I don't think most complaints are really about player safety, per se.  It's about attacking a way of playing the game that some people don't care about and using player safety as the instrument of change.

"If we're actually interested in saving people's lives, seat belts are pretty low on the list.  We should be advocating for fewer cars and wider roads.  Or more ignition interlock systems.  Or uniform city planning so driver's don't have to learn new traffic layouts.  But I don't think most complaints are really about saving lives, per se.  It's about attacking a way of driving a car that some people don't care about and using saving lives as the instrument of change."

 

If I were you, I'd focus less on what you think most complaints are really about, and actually read and respond to the complaints here.  I like watching players play, not get their legs broke.  I was hugely looking forward to seeing Jung Ho Kang in the postseason this year.

[gunnarthor]

 

The Massachusetts game. Soaking the runner. Closer to Town Ball than the New York game was. Good times, good times. Find a local vintage baseball team and sign up to play. You'll gain an appreciation for a lot of things about the game then and now.

Yes, Massachusetts game! Thank you.  I actually just finished reading about it on wikipedia.  That sounds like a lot of fun to try at least once.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Yes, Massachusetts game! Thank you.  I actually just finished reading about it on wikipedia.  That sounds like a lot of fun to try at least once.

I'll play against you

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Actually, the main reason they slide is so they don't die.  The short stop or second baseman can throw the ball through a runner and then both runners would be out.  Cal Ripkin was great at that.

Both runners would be out only if the umpire ruled the player getting hit by the ball was deliberately attempting to interfere.  If they don't rule that on drop-kicks wide of the bag, I doubt they'd rule it much if the runner took a throw to the face instead.

 

 

The obvious reason for the take out slide is to prevent a second out (as opposed to your other instances).  If you want MLB to adopt a Japanese version, fine.  That's what you'd like.  I think that would be boring but to each his own.

If these Utley-style takeout slides are rare enough to cause serious injury as infrequently as you claim (conveniently ignoring Kang a few weeks ago), how much excitement can they really be providing?

[TheLeviathan]

 

If these Utley-style takeout slides are rare enough to cause serious injury as infrequently as you claim (conveniently ignoring Kang a few weeks ago), how much excitement can they really be providing?

 

Didn't you see that sweet leg breaking flying chop block?  Dude...that's like 20 years worth of awesomeness!

[gunnarthor]

 

 

If these Utley-style takeout slides are rare enough to cause serious injury as infrequently as you claim (conveniently ignoring Kang a few weeks ago), how much excitement can they really be providing?

Since they are so rare, why are we pushing for a rule change?  If you want a Japanese version where double plays aren't broken up, fine.  I think you're wrong but so what?  Some people view things differently.  

 

There will probably be some minor wording change in the rules next year and sometime in the year something will happen where a runner is called out where the shortstop never even threw the ball b/c of interference and the internet will explode again as we all argue about the intent of the slide.  It'll be fun and thought provoking.  

 

[flpmagikat]

 

Since they are so rare, why are we pushing for a rule change?  If you want a Japanese version where double plays aren't broken up, fine.  I think you're wrong but so what?  Some people view things differently.  

 

There will probably be some minor wording change in the rules next year and sometime in the year something will happen where a runner is called out where the shortstop never even threw the ball b/c of interference and the internet will explode again as we all argue about the intent of the slide.  It'll be fun and thought provoking.  

I don't think anyone is saying you shouldnt be able to break up double plays, provided you actually make a baseball play, like a slide. These aren't even slides, they're as levi keeps say chop blocks, or just tackles or flailing recklessly into guys legs. Maybe the rule isn't as black and white and is up to the umpires discretion. Thats ok, thats what its like in every sport.

 

I guess I know hockey better than most sports, but I'd compare it(though not apples to apples) to checking. Normal check, just fine. Launching yourself like a missile at another player, especially the legs/knees? Yeah thats not hockey and its illegal, either by penalty or suspension.