First Wave of September Call Ups

[Secondary User]

 

Berrios should have been up today to be eligible for the postseason rosters,

 

Berrios is eligible for the playoffs regardless of whether he's called up or not.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Berrios is eligible for the playoffs regardless of whether he's called up or not.

It does appear that simply being in the org at the Aug. 31 deadline is the strict requirement, although I don't think anyone has grossly flouted the 40-man roster expectation since K-Rod in 2002. It is doubtful that the Twins would push that envelope, and unknown whether MLB would be as accommodating of such a request anymore now that they have dramatically streamlined postseason roster rules.

[stringer bell]

It does appear that simply being in the org at the Aug. 31 deadline is the strict requirement, although I don't think anyone has grossly flouted the 40-man roster expectation since K-Rod in 2002. It is doubtful that the Twins would push that envelope, and unknown whether MLB would be as accommodating of such a request anymore now that they have dramatically streamlined postseason roster rules.

Don't they have a ready-made spot (Santana's)?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Don't they have a ready-made spot (Santana's)?

It's not simply a matter of having an injured/ineligible player to replace.  I think there is a reason adding non-40-man guys still requires approval from the league, while you can mix-and-match however you want with your 40-man and DL guys.  I'm not sure anything as extreme as K-Rod (added Sep. 15) has been attempted since K-Rod.

 

You are right, though, Ervin Santana's upcoming ineligibility gives them the best argument.

[nicksaviking]

 

It's not simply a matter of having an injured/ineligible player to replace.  I think there is a reason adding non-40-man guys still requires approval from the league, while you can mix-and-match however you want with your 40-man and DL guys.  I'm not sure anything as extreme as K-Rod (added Sep. 15) has been attempted since K-Rod.

 

You are right, though, Ervin Santana's upcoming ineligibility gives them the best argument.

 

The loophole had previously been used for injuries, I wonder if a suspension would be different. 

 

Not that the Twins couldn't go the injury route either, there are options there.

 

Watching Fien and his meatballs last night, I'd really like to see another right-handed pen option who can miss bats.  I thought May and Jepsen would have pushed Fien out of high leverage situations. I wouldn't mind another power arm available to put the former set-up guy firmly in a mop up role.  I like Fein too, he was a pretty nice pickup but he looks to be on the Jared Burton trajectory.

[Shane Wahl]

Terry Ryan's discussion about November's "roster crunch" being an issue weighing against possibly adding the BEST STARTER in the organization for a PLAYOFF RUN is beyond laughable. It's just a total joke.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Terry Ryan's discussion about November's "roster crunch" being an issue weighing against possibly adding the BEST STARTER in the organization for a PLAYOFF RUN is beyond laughable. It's just a total joke.

 

Not to mention their fear of messing up his future by having him throw out of the bullpen this year.

 

It is an organization largely driven by fear, not by trying to go all in and win. That's my perception, it may be wrong, but that's how this decision and the trade deadline decisions look.

[Mike Sixel]

From Fangraphs last night:

 

Comment From Merv Throneberry
So neither Berrios nor Snell got the call-up from AAA….if not now, when?
 

9:27
Paul Swydan: Next June, probably. Cheap is as cheap does.

9:27
Jeff Zimmerman: No doubt

 

Comment From Cage
How mad should Twins fans be that they are still in the hunt, but are letting Berrios waste his innings away in AAA
9:39
Paul Swydan: They should be furious. To be honest, I’m kind of furious about it and I don’t even like the Twins.

9:40
Jeff Zimmerman: Pretty mad, it is the playoffs we are talking about.
9:40
Paul Swydan: It’d be one thing if they truly felt he wasn’t ready, but to hide behind a vague innings cap is BS of the highest order.

9:40
Paul Swydan: They should ask the Nationals how well their vague innings cap worked with Strasburg.

[SwainZag]

 

Not to mention their fear of messing up his future by having him throw out of the bullpen this year.

 

It is an organization largely driven by fear, not by trying to go all in and win. That's my perception, it may be wrong, but that's how this decision and the trade deadline decisions look.

 

Has anyone associated with the organization come out and said they don't want to pitch Berrios out of the bullpen because of screwing up his future?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Has anyone associated with the organization come out and said they don't want to pitch Berrios out of the bullpen because of screwing up his future?

Don't know, but it they are willing to let him throw out of the bullpen this year, then letting him reach his innings limit by starting in AAA is even more inexplicable.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

 

Paul Swydan: It’d be one thing if they truly felt he wasn’t ready, but to hide behind a vague innings cap is BS of the highest order.

I don't even mind the innings limit for Berrios.

 

What frustrates me is the combination of the innings limit, the apparent refusal (so far) to use him out of the pen to lengthen his season within that innings limit, AND the apparent refusal to adjust his starting schedule (more rest, breaks) to lengthen his season within that innings limit.

 

It's well beyond simply a prudent, cautious approach -- it's complete inflexibility with potentially our best chance at adding marginal wins post-Sano.

[drjim]

 

I don't even mind the innings limit for Berrios.

 

What frustrates me is the combination of the innings limit, the apparent refusal (so far) to use him out of the pen to lengthen his season within that innings limit, AND the apparent refusal to adjust his starting schedule (more rest, breaks) to lengthen his season within that innings limit.

 

It's well beyond simply a prudent, cautious approach -- it's complete inflexibility with potentially our best chance at adding marginal wins post-Sano.

 

I think the innings limit and pitching out of the bullpen are two different issues.

 

Looking back, I don't have a huge issue with how the Twins handled Berrios up until the spot start of May. That should have been his and then re-evaluated the situation at that point. But the reality is that by that point it wasn't feasible for him to pitch the rest of the season in the rotation. It would have taken a plan from the Twins from spring training to make it work and considering where they (and Berrios) were at, I don't fault them for not considering that at the time.

 

I don't understand the hesitancy to pitch him out of the bullpen other than they don't think it is worth it now that they have 5 guys they trust ahead of him and prefer to protect his arm. I don't agree, a game like yesterday for instance would have been a perfect time to unleash him for a couple of innings. They could put very conservative rules such as no more than 3 innings, 2-3 days between appearances and no coming in to a game with runners on base. Doesn't seem very hard.

[drjim]

 

From Fangraphs last night:

 

Comment From Merv Throneberry
So neither Berrios nor Snell got the call-up from AAA….if not now, when?
 

9:27
Paul Swydan: Next June, probably. Cheap is as cheap does.

9:27
Jeff Zimmerman: No doubt

 

Comment From Cage
How mad should Twins fans be that they are still in the hunt, but are letting Berrios waste his innings away in AAA
9:39
Paul Swydan: They should be furious. To be honest, I’m kind of furious about it and I don’t even like the Twins.

9:40
Jeff Zimmerman: Pretty mad, it is the playoffs we are talking about.
9:40
Paul Swydan: It’d be one thing if they truly felt he wasn’t ready, but to hide behind a vague innings cap is BS of the highest order.

9:40
Paul Swydan: They should ask the Nationals how well their vague innings cap worked with Strasburg.

 

Who is Paul Swydan? While I share his outrage, comparing Berrios this year to the Strasburg situation kind of destroys any credibility he might have.

[jimmer]

 

Who is Paul Swydan? While I share his outrage, comparing Berrios this year to the Strasburg situation kind of destroys any credibility he might have.

That's certainly your opinion.  Problem is that every time someone (a poster or an article) says something you don't agree with, you say the info doesn't say anything, or the logic isn't sound, or(in this case) that what is said destroys his credibility, or whatever else.  As if everything said that you don't agree with is invalid or bunk and the source isn't credible.  That's hardly the case.

 

As far as who he is, Senior writer at Fangraphs, co-managing editor of the Hardball Times, writes for ESPN Insider, worked 7 years for a MLB ball club, and someone whose opinion is valued enough he is asked to do a chat by a major sports site. HIS credibility isn't in question.

[SwainZag]

 

That's certainly your opinion.  Problem is that every time someone (a poster or an article) says something you don't agree with, you say the info doesn't say anything, or the logic isn't sound, or(in this case) that what is said destroys his credibility, or whatever else.  As if everything said that you don't agree with is invalid or bunk and the source isn't credible.  That's hardly the case.

 

As far as who he is, Senior writer at Fangraphs, co-managing editor of the Hardball Times, writes for ESPN Insider, worked 7 years for a MLB ball club, and someone whose opinion is valued enough he is asked to do a chat by a major sports site. HIS credibility isn't in question.

 

He is an established writer, but it was a pretty terrible comparison, IMO.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Strasburg was worse -- the Nationals and Strasburg were expected to contend, they should have planned better. Start his season late, have him take a break, have a plan for the pen, something.

 

In the sense of being inflexible, though, it is a close match for Berrios thus far. Not that the Twins should have anticipated contention early, but they could have adjusted a bit better mid season, definitely by August. Especially given how our pen looked, and that the pen has been a common place to ease young arms into MLB.

 

We still don't have a long reliever in the pen, even with expanded rosters. That's almost inexcusable. A short start blowout loss will almost certainly rope in multiple good relievers right now, just to get thru the game. (Not that we'd want Berrios to be that guy, I was thinking Darnell).

[jimmer]

 

He is an established writer, but it was a pretty terrible comparison, IMO.

It was a comparison that popped into his head very quickly in a chat. Mostly due to innings limits. Perhaps in an article he might have chosen something different, but when you are answering things very quickly in a chat that gets a ton of questions, his point was still clear.  That hiding behind an innings cap as the reason to not promote is BS.

[drjim]

 

That's certainly your opinion.  Problem is that every time someone (a poster or an article) says something you don't agree with, you say the info doesn't say anything, or the logic isn't sound, or(in this case) that what is said destroys his credibility, or whatever else.  As if everything said that you don't agree with is invalid or bunk and the source isn't credible.  That's hardly the case.

 

As far as who he is, Senior writer at Fangraphs, co-managing editor of the Hardball Times, writes for ESPN Insider, worked 7 years for a MLB ball club, and someone whose opinion is valued enough he is asked to do a chat by a major sports site. HIS credibility isn't in question.

 

I guess I can see why he no longer works for a team if that is his analysis.

 

Again, to state again, I think Berrios should have been up since the May spot start. Still do. Always will. I think that blunder by Ryan has a good chance of costing the team the playoffs. Still not calling him up is doubling down on a previous blunder for no good reason.

 

But come on, a 21 year old breaking into a team that had good reason to not think they were a contender compared to a team that was a preseason world series favorite squandering their ace for the playoffs is not close to the same. That hurts credibility.

[drjim]

 

It was a comparison that popped into his head very quickly in a chat. Mostly due to innings limits. Perhaps in an article he might have chosen something different, but when you are answering things very quickly in a chat that gets a ton of questions, his point was still clear.  That hiding behind an innings cap as the reason to not promote is BS.

 

This is a fair point, I didn't consider the quickness of a chat, but I would expect more.

 

And innings is not BS, it is generally accepted operating procedure by every single major league team, who have much more clear incentives than someone in a chat.

[SwainZag]

 

It was a comparison that popped into his head very quickly in a chat. Mostly due to innings limits. Perhaps in an article he might have chosen something different, but when you are answering things very quickly in a chat that gets a ton of questions, his point was still clear.  That hiding behind an innings cap as the reason to not promote is BS.

 

Regardless, it was a very poor comparison, especially for a guy who is lauded as knowledgeable as that.

 

One of the best pitcher's in the league being shut down due to a strict innings limit when his team had a 6.5 game lead and were headed towards the best record in the league and a serious contender for a WS title.  Or a guy who has never thrown a major league pitch, playing for a team who has an outside change at a one game playoff and simply a guess to what the innings limit for him might be.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Has anyone associated with the organization come out and said they don't want to pitch Berrios out of the bullpen because of screwing up his future?

 

Someone quoted Antony as saying that, yes.

[RedBull34]

 

Someone quoted Antony as saying that, yes.

Strange because this happened while talking about Berrios...

 

“He wasn’t a guy we had listed about worrying about innings count this year,” Antony said. “Sometimes the way they’re going tells you if they’re getting tired and you need to slow it down to avoid injury, but he hasn’t shown any of those signs.”

 

http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2015/08/09/twinsights-surging-jose-berrios-has-the-attention-of-twins-bosses/

[jimmer]

 

Strange because this happened while talking about Berrios...

 

“He wasn’t a guy we had listed about worrying about innings count this year,” Antony said. “Sometimes the way they’re going tells you if they’re getting tired and you need to slow it down to avoid injury, but he hasn’t shown any of those signs.”

 

http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2015/08/09/twinsights-surging-jose-berrios-has-the-attention-of-twins-bosses/

that article was posted almost a month ago, though. and doesn't seem to be in the context of whether or not to call him up. Nor does it address whether or not to pitch him out of the bullpen.

[RedBull34]

 

that article was posted almost a month ago, though. and doesn't seem to be in the context of whether or not to call him up. Nor does it address whether or not to pitch him out of the bullpen.

True, but that's not what I was responding too.  I was responding to whether the IP seems to be a factor, specifically if Antony said that it was.  On face value, it does not.

 

It seems they are monitoring to see if this could mess up his future, but agree there were (and I assume still are) no indications it would cause an injury or the such.

[jimmer]

 

True, but that's not what I was responding too.  I was responding to whether the IP seems to be a factor, specifically if Antony said that it was.  On face value, it does not.

One poster asked: 'Has anyone associated with the organization come out and said they don't want to pitch Berrios out of the bullpen because of screwing up his future?'

 

Mike responded to THAT by saying 'Someone quoted Antony as saying that, yes.'

 

So they were talking bullpen use.

 

Then you quoted what Mike wrote above and gave a quote and a link about innings not bullpen use. 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't even mind the innings limit for Berrios.

 

What frustrates me is the combination of the innings limit, the apparent refusal (so far) to use him out of the pen to lengthen his season within that innings limit, AND the apparent refusal to adjust his starting schedule (more rest, breaks) to lengthen his season within that innings limit.

This is exactly my take on the subject.

 

I don't have a problem with the innings limit or erring on the side of caution when it comes to a 21 year old and arm fatigue.

 

But c'mon... The Twins should have seen this coming six weeks ago. They could have skipped a start or put him on an 85 pitch limit for August... Or hell, don't even skip a start and shut him down on September 10th, as long as he was up here for that spot start in August that ended up destroying the Twins in the Yankees series.

 

They had plenty of options and used none of them. Frustrating.

[drjim]

This is exactly my take on the subject.

 

I don't have a problem with the innings limit or erring on the side of caution when it comes to a 21 year old and arm fatigue.

 

But c'mon... The Twins should have seen this coming six weeks ago. They could have skipped a start or put him on an 85 pitch limit for August... Or hell, don't even skip a start and shut him down on September 10th, as long as he was up here for that spot start in August that ended up destroying the Twins in the Yankees series.

 

They had plenty of options and used none of them. Frustrating.

Agree with this too. I don't fault them for not planning in spring to develop a plan for Berrios to be making starts in late September/October, but once he and the team exceeded expectations it was time to recalibrate a little and catch some value from him down the stretch.

 

I fully support caution with inning jumps in young arms but there were other ways to use him and multiple times to make adjustments to the plan up to and including the last week.

 

It is hard for me to think anything other than on this situation (and to a lesser extent only getting one reliever at the deadline) that it got to winning time and the front office choked.

 

And this team might still pull it off.

[RedBull34]

 

One poster asked: 'Has anyone associated with the organization come out and said they don't want to pitch Berrios out of the bullpen because of screwing up his future?'

 

Mike responded to THAT by saying 'Someone quoted Antony as saying that, yes.'

 

So they were talking bullpen use.

 

Then you quoted what Mike wrote above and gave a quote and a link about innings not bullpen use. 

Isn't the reason everybody is saying Berrios isn't pitching in the bigs because of IP?

 

So it is about bullpen use, just not directly.  IF Antony said something along those lines (which we haven't seen BTW) then he would be contradicting himself.